smips65 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Local CL sale... asking price, $20.00 per pair. I've heard of orange drop caps here, and various offerings from Stew/Mac. Are these better than stock, and is this a good price? Just wondering if I was to upgrade the Dot or the LP. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Hi Smips I took the advice of the guy who made my harnesses he says he recommended paper and oil caps. I also have the mojotone caps in my JP. Strum went for the Orange Drops read a lot of threads about this on the net. Some people swear this and some people swear that....... I went with the advice of the guy who made my pickups, he is also making my harnesses, and I am sure he will want the best caps to make those pups sound at their best and he votes paper and oil. I aint got the experience to say either way so I defer to him because he has tried different caps with the pickups he makes and prefers the paper and oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyseven Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Yes, paper and oil.Got some Luxe Bumblebees in my Lester.Big tonal improfement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluelake07 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 I put a Goodall paper-in-oil cap in my Telecaster, but I was doing some other mods and weeks went by before the guitar was reassembled so I can't say if I heard a difference between the PIO and ceramic cap that was replaced. My intent was to do a test as described here in Finding the Perfect Value section and decide for myself: http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx as I have the ceramic (.05uf), an Orange Drop and the Goodall with the .047uf value. I haven't performed the test...I guess I don't care enough to do it (maybe someday?) anymore. I think I paid just under $10 for the cap with shipping. I've changed capacitor types in a tube amp and heard a difference, but of course a tube amp circuit and guitar circuit are very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peeper Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Waste of money. A cap is a cap, all that matters is the value. Value is the only thing that affects the sound one bit in a guitar circuit. Ancient hoo-doo for the Flat Earth Society. Not only do I believe in physics, which tells us there is no difference, but being a luthier and tech, I have hand on experience with more caps than most ever even knew existed, and in all my double blind tests, YOU CAN NOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE when two caps are of the same value regardless of material makeup. But here's a secret, when someone really wants to hear something, they will. And I gladly install premium caps in those clients guitars because my markup on them is ridiculous, and I'd be a fool not to take your money! But in all honesty, its a waste. Period correct, sure, but we are talking about science here, not art. There is no interpretation in science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordy01 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Well said M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrycat Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Waste of money. A cap is a cap' date=' all that matters is the value. Value is the only thing that affects the sound one bit in a guitar circuit. Ancient hoo-doo for the Flat Earth Society. Not only do I believe in physics, which tells us there is no difference, but being a luthier and tech, I have hand on experience with more caps than most ever even knew existed, and in all my double blind tests, YOU CAN NOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE when two caps are of the same value regardless of material makeup. [/quote'] +1 THANK YOU!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Helliday Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I was told by pro amp builder Billy Zoom "Don't pay more than $1 for a cap." that being said I have a few paper and oil caps that i have yet to install in a gtar of mine. They are from the USSR military so that might add "psychological" power to them. I got them for free though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx as I have the ceramic (.05uf)' date=' an Orange Drop and the Goodall with the .047uf value. I haven't performed the test...I guess I don't care enough to do it (maybe someday?) anymore. I think I paid just under $10 for the cap with shipping. [b']I've changed capacitor types in a tube amp and heard a difference, but of course a tube amp circuit and guitar circuit are very different[/b]. I think we have discussed this subject time and time again on this forum and elsewhere. On a hi-fi amp, signal coupling cap between stages of amplification (or a bypass) make a big difference because the entire audible range passes through it.. from 20Hz to 15Khz (which is the extent of human hearing , not damaged by loud noises, I might add). Age and exposure to loud noises affect that as well. The notes/chords on the guitar produce fundamental frequencies which are higher than 20hz , but lower than 15khz. (typically 200hz t0 5200Hz), so only a portion of the frequency range (20-20khz) that pass through a tube amp are present in the guitar. Now if you examine the guitar tone circuit, it is set up as a low pass filter, the capacitor value used and the 500k pot are a variable time constant that allows the higher frequencies be "rolled off" or attenuated to ground. Whether you use a polyester OD or a PIO, there really isn't a hell of a lot of difference...and if there is even a slightest amount, the variable portion of the time constant (the pot) will compensate for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I was told by pro amp builder Billy Zoom "Don't pay more than $1 for a cap." that being said I have a few paper and oil caps that i have yet to install in a gtar of mine. They are from the USSR military so that might add "psychological" power to them. I got them for free though. Yes' date=' when you play the Russian national anthem, those Soviet-tech caps will bristle with pride...'Back in the USSR' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I think we have discussed this subject time and time again on this forum and elsewhere. On a hi-fi amp' date=' signal coupling cap between stages of amplification (or a bypass) make a big difference because the entire audible range passes through it.. from 20Hz to 15Khz (which is the extent of human hearing , not damaged by loud noises, I might add). Age and exposure to loud noises affect that as well. The notes/chords on the guitar produce fundamental frequencies which are higher than 20hz , but lower than 15khz. (typically 200hz t0 5200Hz), so only a portion of the frequency range (20-20khz) that pass through a tube amp are present in the guitar. Now if you examine the guitar tone circuit, it is set up as a low pass filter, the capacitor value used and the 500k pot are a variable time constant that allows the higher frequencies be "rolled off" or attenuated to ground. Whether you use a polyester OD or a PIO, there really isn't a hell of a lot of difference...and if there is even a slightest amount, the variable portion of the time constant (the pot) will compensate for that. [/quote'] If caps are not important variables, which I accept..... then what are the other elements in the loop, wiring, pots, switch, jack........wood, pickups, what are the elements that make the difference between say an average 335 copy and a vintage Gibson 335 what are the factors that make one sound different to the other we can exclude "bumblebees" we have established that if given the option between bumblebees and $1 caps it makes no difference.... .......what are the factors that make the difference. this is the insides of a Gibson 345 this what came out of my Joe Pass.... This is what went into my Joe Pass This is what is going in my Sheraton... I could have saved a few dollars buying 4 $1 caps instead of the oil and paper caps "oh hum" I will lose sleep over that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 If caps are not important variables' date=' which I accept..... then what are the other elements in the loop, wiring, pots, switch, jack........wood, pickups, [b']what are the elements that make the difference between say an average 335 copy and a vintage Gibson 335 what are the factors that make one sound different to the other [/b]we can exclude "bumblebees" we have established that if given the option between bumblebees and $1 caps it makes no difference.... .......what are the factors that make the difference. Ok, good question. First of all, let me say this..I worked in an Epiphone store back in the late 60s, and even then Gibson and Epiphone Kalamazoo Mi. were using Orange Drop caps because they were cheap back then, and in good supply compared to the Sprague Black Beauties PIO (aka "Bumblebees). There are many factors that make up the tonal difference and tonal quality of some of these vintage guitars...even newer ones. Here is my offering based on my experience and opinion in the order of importance to the type of sound/tone they produce...(others may differ) 1. The type of wood/thickness (or plywood used on the Gibson ES175/ES335 for instance) and hand carving the top on the L5. 2. The type of CONSTRUCTION (hollow, semi-hollow or tone block) resonance of upper bout (treble area) and lower bout (bass area) 3. Type of pickups used make a big difference. (vintage vs modern) 4. Type of strings used (guage and construction of strings) 5. Type of bridge, and to some degree the mass of the tail piece. 6. Type of nut and fingerboard used and yes, even the type of frets. 7. The type of finish (lacquer vs poly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Just throwing it out there for entertainment's sake. ;-) http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html Yes I believe in the Mythical Powers of PIO. However I don't believe in spending a bloody fortune on'm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I could have saved a few dollars buying 4 $1 caps instead of the oil and paper caps "oh hum" I will lose sleep over that...... "Joe", these guitars are your babies and you love them, so what's the big deal about spending a few dollars on something you really like to play? It doesn't matter in the long run what the electrical characteristics are of this cap over that cap...what matters is the that you want the best you can afford in your babies and what is wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 $65 dollars for a hand made harness braided wire, switchcraft jack and switch, CTS pots, paper and oil caps. $65 = Peace of mind..... this = ??????? I still think $65 invested in my $375 second hand Sheraton is a good investment for peace of mind that there is a quality electrical system in there what came out of my JP and what is in my E-by-G Sheraton definitely need replacing in my opinion. I just want to know there is good stuff inside my "babies".......... $65 for a great number of years peace of mind is a small price to pay, I am only modding 3 guitars not a fortune. My son in law pays more for a fishing rod than all my mods combined....We are not talking megabucks here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 $65 dollars for a hand made harness braided wire' date=' switchcraft jack and switch, CTS pots, paper and oil caps. $65 = Peace of mind..... I still think $65 invested in my $375 second hand Sheraton is a good investment for peace of mind that there is a quality electrical system in there what came out of my JP and what is in my E-by-G Sheraton definitely need replacing in my opinion. I just want to know there is good stuff inside my "babies".......... $65 for a great number of years peace of mind is a small price to pay, I am only modding 3 guitars not a fortune. My son in law pays more for a fishing rod than all my mods combined....We are not talking megabucks here No argument there Joe. The point of this discussion was whether the PIO caps (a few brands including some former soviet countries making them now as 'retro vintage"), is in fact better than any other cap in a guitar tone circuit..and most will say they are about the "same". While it is true that after spending big bucks for PIO (especially the ridiculous asking prices for any old stock), you want to believe that your investment makes a difference. Believing is the same as going out to buy a ticket on a lottery. It's fun to think that these old stock PIOs will make your MIC Epi LP sound like a '59 Gibson LP..and why spoil that dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 No argument there Joe. The point of this discussion was whether the PIO caps (a few brands includingsome former soviet countries making them now as 'retro vintage")' date=' is in fact better than any other cap in a guitar tone circuit..and most will say they are about the "same". While it is true that after spending big bucks for PIO (especially the ridiculous asking prices for any old stock), you want to believe that your investment makes a difference. Believing is the same as going out to buy a ticket on a lottery. It's fun to think that these old stock PIOs will make your MIC Epi LP sound like a '59 Gibson LP..and why spoil that dream? [/quote'] I was starting to feel extravagant paying us$27 for six Mojotone caps for my 3 guitars, I was not even aware these megarubel russian caps existed...........the us$4.50cents Mojotone caps do me fine. My biggest extravagance is paying someone to do the soldering..........I payed $90 for the Mojotone harness for my JP......I shopped around got my Sheraton harness for $65 ($9 of that is the Mojotone Vitamin T (Oil Filled) caps). But I will teach myself that skill one day. I bought a "very" cheap second hand Samick SG and will experiment with my soldering on that, I will try and make my own harness for that for as a learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smips65 Posted March 14, 2010 Author Share Posted March 14, 2010 [biggrin] Wow, Didn't mean to start duststorm over some little electrical caps. Thanks for all the enlightenment, and interesting divergent opinions on the matter. Had a thought about asking which tubes could be installed in my new Bug amp, but I think I'll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 [blink] Wow' date=' Didn't mean to start duststorm over some little electrical caps. [/quote'] Well you just tried to revive the "old dead horse" and around here it seems we like to keep beatin' them to ensure they are really dead.. but then some comes along with the same old questions again...sigh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strumbone Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Ron is right about the "a cap is a cap" part...I mean 47 microfarads is...etc. And for the most part, in a quiescent circuit, they are the same electrically. However, capacitance combined with resistance (pot), has a definite effect on frequency (ies), and that's where the difference in material and construction has an effect on how the capacitor reacts to certain frequencies. I've seen this with a scope on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaxxine Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Waste of money. A cap is a cap' date=' all that matters is the value. Value is the only thing that affects the sound one bit in a guitar circuit. Ancient hoo-doo for the Flat Earth Society. Not only do I believe in physics, which tells us there is no difference, but being a luthier and tech, I have hand on experience with more caps than most ever even knew existed, and in all my double blind tests, YOU CAN NOT HEAR A DIFFERENCE when two caps are of the same value regardless of material makeup. But here's a secret, when someone really wants to hear something, they will. And I gladly install premium caps in those clients guitars because my markup on them is ridiculous, and I'd be a fool not to take your money! But in all honesty, its a waste. Period correct, sure, but we are talking about science here, not art. There is no interpretation in science. [/quote'] Agree completely. Those caps are not worth $20 a pair, and I doubt you'd hear any difference anyway. Remember, the signal going to your amp does not go through the tone cap. The portion of the signal being shunted to ground so that it does not go to your amp is what passes through a tone cap. What goes to the amp is what is left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Helliday Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Yes' date=' when you play the Russian national anthem, those Soviet-tech caps will bristle withpride...'Back in the USSR' pretty much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 However' date=' capacitance combined with resistance (pot), has a definite effect on frequency (ies), and that's where the difference in material and construction has an effect on how the capacitor reacts to certain frequencies. I've seen this with a scope on the bench.[/quote'] Ok, I guess we will kick this can around a bit longer then? How can you see any difference on a scope? A scope is not going to show you any difference in Xc (capacitive reactance according to frequencies). I don't give a hoot what Preimer guitar magazine story said about demonstrating the effects of different types of construction (same value within tolerance range though).. that test was flawed in my opinion. If you want to see the real difference, you need a burst mode sweep audio generator and a 1/3 octave audio spectrum analyzer (like HP make). We used these in tuning the acoustic response of recording studios and that will show you (captured in it's memory over the entire audio range) what the differences are. personally, the resistor part is just a variable time constant..adjust that and you will get the same response from any cap over the audio range (Fc = R + Xc.) ok..lets hear some arguments from the experts that I'm wrong on this and there IS a difference..show me the graphs and prove it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflanster Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Why would anybody pay $10.00 for a 47uf capacitor? Radio Shack sells all kinds of caps for as little as 75 cents. I think the best thing about those orange drops is that if one falls on the floor its easy to find. Unless we're talking about NASA specs for caps and resistors, a 47uf is a 47uf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Ok' date=' I guess we will kick this can around a bit longer then? How can you see any difference on a scope? A scope is not going to show you any difference in Xc (capacitive reactance according to frequencies). I don't give a hoot what Preimer guitar magazine story said about demonstrating the effects of different types of construction (same value within tolerance range though).. that test was flawed in my opinion. If you want to see the real difference, you need a burst mode sweep audio generator and a 1/3 octave audio spectrum analyzer (like HP make). We used these in tuning the acoustic response of recording studios and that will show you (captured in it's memory over the entire audio range) what the differences are. personally, the resistor part is just a variable time constant..adjust that and you will get the same response from any cap over the audio range (Fc = R + Xc.) ok..lets hear some arguments from the experts that I'm wrong on this and there IS a difference..show me the graphs and prove it! [/quote'] Time to e-mail Mythbusters and I am serious....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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