Last Lesson

[Oopssorryy]

Well after little over 4 years, my guitar teacher is getting a normal job, for insurance reasons. After four years I've progressed from not knowing what a fret or barr cord was, too playing live and doing simple setups. Me and my teacher are really good friends now, and spend a lot of time talking rather than playing. But after getting married to a woman that runs a massage parlor and having kids, he needed to put his family first. So after 8pm today I'll be done with lessons.

 

My teacher had a very relaxed way of teaching that I could easily learn from, and felt comfortable in. He also has a good knowledge of both theory and actual playing, and could teach both. He could also play nearly all genres of music. When I first started playing all I wanted to learn was metal, but by teaching me the basics using Zeppelin, Floyd, and AC/DC (to name a few) I no longer want to play metal. He'll teach you what you want to learn, but only after you've learned the basics, which has helped me a lot.

 

My problem is I still feel like a beginner. Even though I know a good bit, I still feel like I have a mountain of knowledge to learn. And now that my teacher is moving on there is nobody that I think can I can really learn and benefit from. There's only two other teacher in my area, one who teaches by the book, but doesn't really know how to put soul into the music he's playing. The other is full of soul, but if you asked him to show you a 6th and he'd look at you like your stupid. Both also charge double of what my soon to quit teacher does. I can learn from both, but it will make me less of a rounded player, which is what I want to avoid. I want knowledge of both schools, but I don't know how I should go about it. Should I attempt to teach myself or go with one of these guys and fill in the blanks?

[ne14t?]

I will probably take some flack for this but I say go with the guy with soul, music theory is the same thing for almost any type of music and that info can be found online all over the place. I have gone the self taught method which is probably the slowest and the hardest, I actually have been considering taking some lessons to try and brush up where I know/feel I am making mistakes. I was always told to start by learning music theory and of course all the scales and stuff, but no I just wanted to play my fave riff on the guitar. Now its come to the point where I want to understand and learn to play lead guitar better and I have fallen into a rut with composing music following Modes and Scales either I find myself copying something thats already been done, or horribly falling out of a scale or mode and ending up with audible poo!

 

After finding a resource online for Music theory (http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/) I started understanding things a little bit more, of course I am still pretty new to it so its like riding a bike for the first time. If you think you can understand that stuff and I am pretty sure you can I would say there is no need at all to pay someone to tell you what it all is.

[stein]

You are progressing, and as such, you are sort of graduating and moving on from one thing to the next.

 

The more you learn, and the better you get, the harder it is to find one person who can teach you everything. After a certain level, (and it sounds like you have reached that level) you either start wanting to find poeple to teach you specific things, or find run across certain players who do certain things that you want to learn. You also might find yourself having more than one teacher, or learning what you wanted to from one and then moving on to learn something else from another.

 

Another option you might consider is classes on music at a college. Best be prepared to study if you do that, but you can learn a lot.

[EvanPC]

I'd go with theory.

 

I'm not under the impression playing with soul can be taught, however, you'll utilize the theory in order to express "soul". Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of soul.

[Oopssorryy]

The way I look at soul it every body has it, but some can get to it more easily than others. My guitar teacher right now would just show little things to do at the end of a riff to add a bit of flavor, or when to go fast and when to go slow. These little things can turn a stock riff into something soulful, and personal. I was drilled on these things (+phrasing and timing) until I could use them to flavor my playing at will. I look at soul as how well you can take a normal riff and make it yours (while sounding good), and giving real emotion to your playing. I know I need theory but at the same time I want to learn how to better express myself, thus my confusion on which way to go.

 

I wish I could do both but each guy charges around $80+ for four, half hour, lessons. My guitar teacher now charged $55 for the same lessons.

[Jeff-7]

Either way that's still pretty cheap for lessons, personally I would take a few lessons from each and see who you learn more from/get along with. Having your teacher be a buddy is fine and all but during a session you should really try to stay on task.

[Oopssorryy]

When we talked it was always guitar related, weather it be on guitar set ups, or different chords and their emotional feel. We talked about that stuff a lot, and I feel that it's helped tons. And in the previous post I accidentally posted one hour lessons, they are half an hour. My teacher told me as I left to start a band, as he thinks I'll benefit from it more than regular lessons. But he did give me the numbers and prices of all the teachers around town (the two I mentioned) and told me about each of them.

 

The theory guy went to Berkly for a Masters in music theory, but does book planed lessons. No matter who you care or how long you've been playing, you're first year will be all chords, and then you're second is scales, and after that it's putting it all together. He's more of a by the book style teacher. I've had personal experience with him when he tried to steal my old guitar teachers crowd (they were at separate gigs, Theory guy was on break). My old teacher was doing a charity event for a school for the mentally handicapped, and this guy was doing a show at a bar . Not cool. But threw all this the guy can play pretty well.

 

The Soul guy never took any form of lessons, but can play like no other. His biggest strength is that he can listen to music and then play it. He has a natural talent, and a great ear. His down fall is that he knows no theory, and has a hard time with chord names (like suspended second chords). I have no idea of how his lessons are, but I again have meet him. He, out side of lessons, is a very down to earth guy, easy to talk to and easy to like. He seemed to me to be a good jam buddy but I don't know about teacher...

[Jeff-7]

Then it sounds like neither may be a good option and you might just take your old teacher's advice. If you've got most of the basics down some self learning may be in order, one thing I might add is to go jam with musicians more advanced than yourself. You can learn a lot from them and it's free and a fun time to boot.

[damian]

I'd go with theory.

 

I'm not under the impression playing with soul can be taught, however, you'll utilize the theory in order to express "soul". Unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of soul.

 

Good thought IMHO.........; I had the option to go to Berklee School of Music In Boston......I chose a different path... ..

 

I find it FUNNY that people/students spend years studying musicians and guitarests who never understood music theory themselves !!!!!

 

Yet, the more theory one knows, the better ( in theory )........The 'Theory' teacher you speak of doesn't appear to understand the

 

true concept of TEACHING, but seems to be recreating his 'class courses' via insisting teaching his students via a BOOK method...

 

This is a waste of money and time....On the other hand, learning from a great player who doesn't know the THEORY of what he plays,

 

dunno.....There is so much free learning stuff on-line today that going with the DUNNO THEORY guy makes sense to me..IE, study

 

theory on your own and learn real life playin' from the DUNNO GUY....Then combine the two.....IMHO...........

[Oopssorryy]

Thanks for all of the responses, I mean it. I'm not sure were I'm to go with guitar, but I know I have to move forward with it. I think I'm going to try to get a band started, and if I feel that my playing isn't moving forward, then I'll take lessons from the soul guy. I'm going to start really researching theory in the mean time.

 

Any bassist or drummers in the Circleville Ohio area? I know 5-6 guitarist but no bassist or drummers :lol:

[jnastynebr]

If you have the discipline to learn it on your own, you can teach yourself theory. If you decide you need the structure of a teacher, you can hire a piano instructor to teach you theory, and they often work for less.

[Oopssorryy]

If you have the discipline to learn it on your own, you can teach yourself theory. If you decide you need the structure of a teacher, you can hire a piano instructor to teach you theory, and they often work for less.

 

I never thought of that, thanks! My grandma actually used to teach piano, so maybe I can get a family discount! I have a massive 300+ page book on music theory that I've yet to read (let my girlfriend borrow it), she could probably help me make sense of it.

 

For some reason I never thought of going outside of guitar teachers for general music theory.

[retrosurfer1959]

Nothing wrong with changing teachers in this case I would take classes first from the theory guy maybe only for a while but it will give you a big head start trying to learn stuff on your own. The other guy sounds like a talented natural guitarist there's a place for that kind of teacher but you'll learn more from him once you have a solid grasp on all the basics. Theory isn't always fun or exciting to learn but it can teach you a lot. I'm amazed how many young players especially those that are self taught can play well solo but they can't play in a group at all, because they honestly don't have the musical skill to play well in a group. Ive taught a few kids like that with real talent but not music ability the first thing i make them get is a metronome you can't play with others if you can't keep time and that seems to be something they rarely teach anymore.

 

Swap them back and forth as you feel you need to in order to progress, if they don't understand what your doing or they don't want you taking lessons from others that usually means there more interested in your money than in growing your skill

[Duende]

There isn't this option on there, but how about finding 'a soul guy' who also knows about music theory etc too?

 

Matt

[damian]

There isn't this option on there, but how about finding 'a soul guy' who also knows about music theory etc too?

 

Matt

 

Matt, I'm not teaching currently, sorry, thanks for the idea though....... [thumbup] ........

[stein]

A couple good questions?:

 

Has either of these 2 teachers done anything with the guitar like play in bands, work in the music business or have any other experience in the field?

 

Also, good suggestion made about getting into a band or playing with others. THAT experience might shed a whole new light on what you will want to learn next.

[rct]

Yer way over thinkin it, kid. Get thee in a band, play with other human beans, sing as much as you can, and fergawdssake learn to play the piano. No teacher is going to make you a rounded player and no teacher is going to solely be moving your playing forward, you do that.

 

You can't play well with others without being able to speak the language, which is theory.

And you can learn theory with rudimentary piano lessons, and by at least trying to sing some of the harmonies in a band. Your sense of rhythm has to develop in order to figure what you sound like, and you won't develop a sense of rhythm with a metronome in lessons, you'll learn it with other humans in bands, it is vital.

 

Play jazz, painful as it is. Play lots of country, learn major sensibilities. Play KlassiK RoKK, learn what the dinosaurs did, and some of us still do. Sing.

 

Did I mention singing?

 

I really hate typing the word rhythm.

 

Good luck with it. I don't know what you are looking for because you don't mention what it is you want to do with music in general and guitars in particular. I don't know what you think will happen, but I can assure you that after four years of guitar lessons, you've got about what you can get out of it. Practice, sing, keys, write songs, lather, rinse, repeat.

 

rct

[Andy R]

IMHO It sounds as though what you were getting from your current teacher is inspiration. Again, IMHO that is ( the primal ) reason we play guitar to begin with. Anytime anyone asks if I am depressed or if I really am depressed it is because I am not inspired. To me feeling inspired is the root of happiness.

 

Now back to your questions and thoughts. I would ask myself what do I want to do and where do I want to go with my playing? What about playing inspires me?

 

When I picked up the guitar my parents wouldn't pay for lessons so I would go to music stores and watch and listen to people play. I would seek out people and learn what I could from them. The most important thing I learned was how to tune to a song I wanted to learn. I burnt up a lot of cassette players back in the day but it taught me to learn by ear one note/chord at a time. It was the best feeling and extremely inspiring to learn a song by listening and figuring it out. It makes you learn to hear the notes and music in your head.

 

When tablature came along it made things a lot easier but I got lazy about actually listening deeply and critically to a song and figuring it out "on my own" and I find the stuff I learn by tabs I don't retain as well. They are still great for getting that chord or phrase that you can't quite hear well enough to figure out.

 

I have to say there were really 4 things that made the biggest impact to my playing ability.

 

1. Learning to play by ear

2. Playing in a band or just jamming with whoever I could

3. TEACHING GUITAR!

4. Finding the CAGED method was the connection for me to understanding what I already knew about basic theory, chords, scales, keys, modes and applying it in a way that I could remember and use.

 

So in Summary my recommendation:

 

- as far as paying for lessons and finding a teacher... The most important thing is that they inspire you.

- see if you can find a place that will allow you to teach a couple of beginners - I guarantee when you have to explain things you will learn as much or more than they will!

- find a non-structured source for learning. Just someone to jam with regardless if they are better or not as good as you are

- Check out the books/DVD "Fretboard logic"

- Learn just by listening.

- I couldn't imagine having the Internet resources that are available now when I was first learning and even teaching.. Use Them!!!! I do all the time now.

- Play, Play, Play, ( post on the forum) Play, Play Play, ( post on the forum ) repeat :-)

- Find the things that really inspire you!

 

Regards,

 

Andy

[Artie Owl]

You develop soul, over time. Theory is important but get a good mix, too much of one thing will drive you nuts.

 

In short, don't go the "self taught" route, very very few people benefit from that. All the great artists, musicians and craftsman had to learn their basics from someone else.

[Oopssorryy]

A couple good questions?:

 

Has either of these 2 teachers done anything with the guitar like play in bands, work in the music business or have any other experience in the field?

 

Also, good suggestion made about getting into a band or playing with others. THAT experience might shed a whole new light on what you will want to learn next.

 

Both of them have played in bar bands since they were in their early 20s (they're now in their late 40s). Other than that, they haven't done recording or anything like that.

 

@rct

I probably am over thinking it, it's what I do. I've actually been trying to branch out a bit, learning Louis Armstrong, and Cash (I usually stick to Tool and Zeppelin). Am learning a lot from the different styles of music. I still don't like country but I understand why I should learn it. I am actually trying to sing more, trying to strengthen my voice, and extend my range just a bit. I've got a few guitarist friends that I play with but they are all on the same level as me, but every once in a while I'll pick something up.

 

@

Andy R

My guitar teacher inspired me, big time. He had a way of making the hardest things sound and look simple. If he showed you something, you learned it. And if you wanted to learn something, he taught it. It was a feeling that he could teach you anything you wanted, in a way that you could understand. Made me feel like I could learn to play anything, which is a great feeling. I'm actually trying to teach my girlfriend, and help bring my other friend back up to speed (he stopped taking lessons years ago, and is asking me to fill in the blanks). Now it's just finding the inspiration again, not sure what it will be. Hopefully I can get a band together and that will inspire me.

[overtherainbo]

You are progressing, and as such, you are sort of graduating and moving on from one thing to the next.

 

The more you learn, and the better you get, the harder it is to find one person who can teach you everything. After a certain level, (and it sounds like you have reached that level) you either start wanting to find poeple to teach you specific things, or find run across certain players who do certain things that you want to learn. You also might find yourself having more than one teacher, or learning what you wanted to from one and then moving on to learn something else from another.

 

Another option you might consider is classes on music at a college. Best be prepared to study if you do that, but you can learn a lot.

Hello, Oopssorryy, and Fellow Babies,

Got to agree here with stein. This is what defines you as a guitarist, if you are always learning, the wider experience will make you better. The whole experience counts, not just the little parts. In other words, Grasshopper, you will ultimately grasp the "big Picture" with practice, knowledge, and experience. Even a casual read of the lives of famous classical musicians and composers show that many of them had multiple teachers: so that a violinist might study under 7 teachers, but each teacher had a different aspect of playing that he emphasized. Some really worked on handling the bow and the attack, another was more concerned about theory, the next had a special fondness for sight reading, it goes on and on. I regret to say that as a teenager, I was well known in my area as a player - I tried to maintain my cool, but I did know I was gettin' to be a hot rock n roller. And then one day, at a rehearsal a guy who was auditioning to join my band, not a skillful player, did something on his guitar that suddenly opened they way for me to figure out how to play a popular hit. Wonder how long it might have been before I figured it out otherwise? So that's a lesson to me, don't get so full of yourself. You never now when somebody's gonna pop up and teach you something, so don't disdain the source. it might be that the guy whose playing displays "no soul" will help you cut through all the crap and find a direct way to playing more from your mind. Now emotionally I don't respond to the finger tapping Van Halen, and I don't like a lot of jazz players like John Mcglaughlen, but it is an emotional response, It doesn't mean that they couldn't teach me a thing or two that might make a connection somewhere else. And suddenly I might actually like Rap.

[overtherainbo]

You are progressing, and as such, you are sort of graduating and moving on from one thing to the next.

 

The more you learn, and the better you get, the harder it is to find one person who can teach you everything. After a certain level, (and it sounds like you have reached that level) you either start wanting to find poeple to teach you specific things, or find run across certain players who do certain things that you want to learn. You also might find yourself having more than one teacher, or learning what you wanted to from one and then moving on to learn something else from another.

 

Another option you might consider is classes on music at a college. Best be prepared to study if you do that, but you can learn a lot.

H

[overtherainbo]

Well after little over 4 years, my guitar teacher is getting a normal job, for insurance reasons. After four years I've progressed from not knowing what a fret or barr cord was, too playing live and doing simple setups. Me and my teacher are really good friends now, and spend a lot of time talking rather than playing. But after getting married to a woman that runs a massage parlor and having kids, he needed to put his family first. So after 8pm today I'll be done with lessons.

 

My teacher had a very relaxed way of teaching that I could easily learn from, and felt comfortable in. He also has a good knowledge of both theory and actual playing, and could teach both. He could also play nearly all genres of music. When I first started playing all I wanted to learn was metal, but by teaching me the basics using Zeppelin, Floyd, and AC/DC (to name a few) I no longer want to play metal. He'll teach you what you want to learn, but only after you've learned the basics, which has helped me a lot.

 

My problem is I still feel like a beginner. Even though I know a good bit, I still feel like I have a mountain of knowledge to learn. And now that my teacher is moving on there is nobody that I think can I can really learn and benefit from. There's only two other teacher in my area, one who teaches by the book, but doesn't really know how to put soul into the music he's playing. The other is full of soul, but if you asked him to show you a 6th and he'd look at you like your stupid. Both also charge double of what my soon to quit teacher does. I can learn from both, but it will make me less of a rounded player, which is what I want to avoid. I want knowledge of both schools, but I don't know how I should go about it. Should I attempt to teach myself or go with one of these guys and fill in the blanks?

 

Hello, Oopssorryy, and Fellow Babies,

unless you're signing a contract to take lessons for many years, it couldn't hurt ya to sample. The Theory guy might actually help lend organization to your thinking, where the player might the really help on technique. I mean, they're both using the same big picture, Western cultural standards of musical conventions: theory guy understands the conventions and can apply theory and anticipate musical trends because he understands it on a conscious level. Player cannot verbalize the rules, but he understands Western conventions in an unconscious way and can respond on a level of co-ordination and anticipation right at the neck of the guitar while playing or learning new music. Sounds like the best of two worlds, you might try working with both, but maybe not at the same time. The hardest thing to see is the faults in your own playing.

[Andy R]

Don't forget your fellow forumites for knowledge too. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that would be willing to share all the knowledge they have on theory and playing in general. I know I would be happy to answer any questions and would also be interested in how others might explain the same concept. In fact I think I might try a theory thread and see how it goes.

 

 

Andy

[damian]

Don't forget your fellow forumites for knowledge too. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that would be willing to share all the knowledge they have on theory and playing in general. I know I would be happy to answer any questions and would also be interested in how others might explain the same concept. In fact I think I might try a theory thread and see how it goes.

 

 

Andy

 

 

Sounds great, in THEORY........... [thumbup] ....