Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[Andy R]

I've seen a few lesson, theory, tricks and concept threads on here but thought It would be interesting to see how you guys approach theory and how you explain things. I thought I would start off with what I know and see where it goes. It sounds good to me... (In Theory)

 

Getting started.I approach theory as most people do by originating the basis from the Major scale as the primal building block. Most people have heard it, some people may not realized they have heard it. I learned it from the "Do Ra Mi" song that Julie Andrews sang in "The sound of Music" when I was a kid and never forgot it ( although I didn't know I had learned my first lesson in theory at the time).

 

For those of you who have never heard it. There is actually a lot of aspects of basic theory happening in this song and once it is in your head you will never forget it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hcXiGb6_s

 

Ok now that you know what a major scale sounds like ( you did listen didn't you???..... ) Damn it, go back and listen to the song it won't kill ya.

 

The notes in music

There are only 12 notes in ( western) music:A,B,C,D,E,F,G - also called "natural" notes ( all the white keys on the piano are natural notes and flat/sharp notes are the black keys ) With an exception to be explained later.

 

Ascending (going from a lower note to a higher note) you progress "chromatically a half-step per note (one fret to the next) adding the "Accidental" notes as Sharps also noted as #'s are A,, A#, B ,C, C#, D, D# ,E, F, F#, G, G# ,back to A Octave

 

Descending (going from a higher note to a lower note) chromatically you call the accidental notes "flats" Usually noted with a odd looking "b" symbol Starting from the Octave A going from higher pitch notes to the next lower note chromatically is A, Ab, G, Gb, F, E, Eb, D, Db,C,B, Bb, A

 

Note that B,C and E,F are only a half step (one fret) away from each other. This can cause confusion later when writing out scales and I will point it out when doing so.

 

So we all know that from one fret to the next on the same string is a "half step" right? .... Well do ya ? We also know that the "Octave" of all the open string notes are located on the 12th Fret right? Thus the Double dots and the guitar just repeats its self from the 12th fret right???? Sure ya did!

 

Octa means 8 so why in the hell is it the thirteenth note? The answer goes back to the major scale and Julie Andrews. The major scale is sang, spoken phonetically as Do,Ra,Mi,Fa,So,La,Ti,Do.... Notice it starts with Do and ends with Do?

 

Notice that Do,Ra,Mi,Fa,So,La,Ti,Do is 8 notes and the 8th note is Do again? So the term Octave is derived from the major scale which starts on a given note and ends with the same note an octave (8th note in the scale higher)

 

The major scale is also not built "Chromatically" Half step to half step. It is built from the following formula

 

MAJOR SCALE FORMULA = W,W,H,W,W,W,H Anytime you start on a note and follow this pattern you will alwaysbe playing a major scale. The note you start with will name the Major scale is also called the "Root Note" Root notes can be considered the "Naming Note"

 

So let's put this theory to work. I should be able to pick a note, Follow this formula and end on the same not an octave higher so lets try.

 

E Major Scale: E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E Ta da! So yahoo now I can Do,Ra,Mi through the Key of E Major what good does that do me?

I'm Glad you asked !

 

Well what does playing in a certain key really mean? Strictly speaking it means that any chords you play in the chosen key will only contain notes that are in the Major scale for the Key that was chosen To hell you say??? No I tell you it's true!

 

But to prove it we need some more theory and formulas. First formula will be the basic natural chord progression formula Which Looks Something like this:

Root Chord I. = Major chord,

II chord = minor

III Chord = minor

IV. Chord = Major

V. Chord = Major

VI. Chord = Minor

VII. Chord = Diminished

 

So lets add or E Major Notes to the Formula above to determine the basic chords in a song that is in the key of E Major

E Maj,

F#min

G#min

A Maj

B Maj

C# minor

D# Diminished

 

Continued...

[Andy R]

So next step is to understand some chord building Formula/Theory

Major chord is created from the 1st, 3rd, and 5th note of it's own Major Scale

 

Minor Chord is created from the 1st, flatted 3rd, and 5 note from its major scale

 

Diminished/ Flat 5 is created from = 1st, flatted 3rd and flatted 5 from its major scale

 

Noticed I highlighted "From its Major Scale" When you are using chord formulas you use the major scale of the root note of the chord to determine the notes in the chord not the notes of the key your in ( yes there is a way to do it using the major scale your in but it is tricky to explain)

 

So back to finding the notes of our chords. To do this I am going to write out the major scales for each of the chords I need to find the notes of:

 

E Major = E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E - Major Chord formula is 1,3,5 So we Get an E major Chord that is E,G#,B

F# Major = F#,G#,A#,B,C#,D#,E#,F# Minor chord formula is 1,b3,5 So we get a F# minor chord that is F#,A,C#

G# Major = This should actually be written as a flat key ( Ab) or you will end up double # which is usually frowned on but for the sake of this we will cross that road later So = G#,A#,B#,C#,D#,E#,F##,G# Minor chord formula is 1,b3,5 So we get a G# minor chord that is G#,B,D#

A Major = A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A - Major Chord formula is 1,3,5 So we Get an A major Chord that is A,C#,E

B Major = B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,B - Major Chord formula is 1,3,5 So we Get an B major Chord that is B,D#,F#

C#Major = C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B#,C# Minor chord formula is 1,b3,5 So we get a C# minor chord that is C#, E, G#

D# Major Also technically another "Flat key" D#,E#,F##,G#,A#,B#,C##,D# Diminished chord formula is 1,b3,b5 So we get a D# Dim chord that is

D#, F#, A

 

Summary of the notes in the chords above:

E Major = E,G#,B

F# Minor = F#,A,C#

G# Minor - G#,B,D#

A Major = A,C#, E

B Major = B,D#,F#

C# Minor = C#,E,G#

D# Dimished = D#,F#,,A

 

So now we examine the notes we made using the the chord progression formula and the Chord building formula and you will notice that following this Theory the chords you are playing only contain the notes of E Major. It's true! look for yourself! Emajor = E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E

[stein]

An interesting shortcut:

 

Notice the scale contains a total of only 7 notes. There are then, 7 chords. But the 7th chord is a HALF diminished. It is never used

 

*we can get into that if you want, but for all practical purposes, the 7th chord is actually not a real chord, and is truly never used unless you want to get wierd.

 

So, that leaves SIX chords. 3 major chords, and 3 minor chords. Each set of 3 happens to be the I, IV, AND V chord.

 

Each and every key you play in contains the I IV V of the major and the relative minor for that key.

[damian]

Great thread........

 

On a side NOTE, I dated a Dorian once, she was a six on a SCALE of one to ten...

 

She served me ice-cream ala minor mode.........

[Duende]

Andy,

 

As always, I really like your writing style - the friendliness and also the way you explain things really come across all the while being hugely informative. In short you are a damn fine teacher! Okay, you asked for a personal perspective sooo...

 

I've seen a few lesson, theory, tricks and concept threads on here but thought It would be interesting to see how you guys approach theory and how you explain things.

 

Theory is something I didn't understand for a long, long while. In my first seven years as a musician, my music reading was average at best - and I found so many things about music theory a damn mystery. But lots of other things in life seemed an enigma - such as social conventions, homework, people's unpredictability etc...so this being weird and difficult to 'get', was no different than anything else!! LMAO My music theory was on 'a need to know basis' for years LOL. i.e I only learned bits if I really had too! I got by for years 'blagging' it and cheating. When we had to write Bach chorales at school I just didn't understand what was being asked and all the 'rules' about consecutive 5ths etc just gave me a headache. I cheated by just playing and then writing down what 'sounded' right...

 

I started teaching the guitar and the piano when I was 24 and all the 'loose' ends that I knew by instinct I HAD to learn (in a way like you wrote in your post) so I could deliver it to people. Then, the second penny dropped, when I wanted to go back to to University. I was 'forced' (LOL) to write a paper analysing a Mozart Piano Concerto. I felt all the anxiety and worry, that I always had when I had to put into words, what was happening in the music...then EUREKA!!!! I decided to take a completely different approach, by interrogating myself about the piece. For example Q . How does the beginning feel? A. Calm Q. Why calm? A. because the melody begins in the mid register and the accompaniment flows by regular note groupings playing notes from the home key...etc etc. Me and theory have been friends ever since!

 

Like we said in pms Andy, teaching definitely teaches you a lot about music! Nowadays, I use heart first and foremost, but the old head comes along to get me out of ruts when I am writing or playing etc...

Andy, I hope that reads okay and like it was all meant to? if it is okay, I will link your post to my teaching page on facebook? Please let me know.

 

Matt

[Andy R]

Deleted

[Andy R]

Andy,

 

As always, I really like your writing style - the friendliness and also the way you explain things really come across all the while being hugely informative. In short you are a damn fine teacher! Okay, you asked for a personal perspective sooo...

 

 

 

Theory is something I didn't understand for a long, long while. In my first seven years as a musician, my music reading was average at best - and I found so many things about music theory a damn mystery. But lots of other things in life seemed an enigma - such as social conventions, homework, people's unpredictability etc...so this being weird and difficult to 'get', was no different than anything else!! LMAO Where music was different for me, (to other subjects), was I already felt I could write and play before I could - in a positive way - like I knew I could do this and really love it - it was so nice (at long last) being half decent at something! LMAO!! However my relationship with music theory was though still on 'a need to know basis' LOL. i.e I only learned bits if I really had too! I got by for years 'blagging' it and cheating. When we had to write Bach chorales at school I just didn't understand what was being asked and all the 'rules' about consecutive 5ths etc just gave me a headache. I cheated by just playing and then writing down what 'sounded' right...

 

I started teaching the guitar and the piano when I was 24 and all the 'loose' ends that I knew by instinct I HAD to learn (in a way like you wrote in your post) so I could deliver it to people. Then, the second penny dropped, when I wanted to go back to to University. I was 'forced' (LOL) to write a paper analysing a Mozart Piano Concerto. I felt all the anxiety and worry, that I always had when I had to put into words, what was happening in the music...then EUREKA!!!! I decided to take a completely different approach, by interrogating myself about the piece. For example Q . How does the beginning feel? A. Calm Q. Why calm? A. because the melody begins in the mid register and the accompaniment flows by regular note groupings playing notes from the home key...etc etc. Me and theory have been friends ever since!

 

Like we said in pms Andy, teaching definitely teaches you a lot about music! Nowadays, I use heart first and foremost, but the old head comes along to get me out of ruts when I am writing or playing etc...

Andy, I hope that reads okay and like it was all meant to? if it is okay, I will link your post to my teaching page on facebook? Please let me know.

 

Matt

 

Reads fine to me and much appreciated. I am also a feel and heart player but also a bit OCD when it comes down to figuring out how and why things work. So it is more of a brain game for me than music.

 

I also listened to your music on you tube. I didn't realize you were a prodigy. Cripes man... I am honored....

 

 

Andy

[cookieman15061]

Andy, As always your post and the way you explain everything is excellent. Simplified and easy to understand, I believe many will realize they were using theory and didn't know it.

 

This kind of thing is the best part of the forum and a real learning tool for any musician, young or old. Great stuff.

[daveinspain]

Wow this is great keep it coming!!!!

[cookieman15061]

I know for me I use everything you've described but my brain works in a photographic way. Meaning it recognizes we've been here before and where to go.

Unlike you though I'm no good at explaining why it goes the way it goes.

I've taught two of my kids to play but they laugh at how I describe things and the way I remember things.

[Kimbabig]

Thanks Andy I learned alot.

[ChanMan]

Bookmarked as a reference material.

 

Thanks man!

[zigzag]

Learning fret distances from the I (root) helped me when learning chords:

 

I= 0 frets

II= 2 frets

III= 4 frets

IV= 5 frets

V= 7 frets

VI= 9 frets

VII= 11 frets

VIII (I)= 12 frets

 

For extensions, you add 12 frets, e.g. a IX (II + VII) would have a 14 fret distance (2 + 12).

 

Back in the days before calculators and automatic tuners, when we tuned "by hand" or "by ear," we tuned from the sixth string to the first by tuning the 5th string to the 5th fret of the sixth string, the 4th string to the 5th fret of the 5th string , etc. From that we learn that the distances from one string to the other strings on the same fret is:

 

6th string to 5th string: 5 frets

6th string to 4th string: 10 frets

6th string to 3rd string: 15 frets

6th string to 2nd string: 19 frets

6th string to 1st string: 24 frets

 

(5,5,4,5 frets)

 

 

I also had a "light bulb" moment when I realized that on the same fret, going from the 6th string to the 1st, using the 1st and 6th string as the I (root)-

 

6th string= I

5th string= IV

4th string= bVII

3rd string= bIII

2nd string= V

1st string= I

 

If the root is on the fifth string, then you drop everything (within the same fret) one string and adjust for the second string:

 

5th string= I

4th= IV

3rd= bVII

2nd= II (IX)

1st= V

 

I am now able to make any chord I want by moving from either side of that same fret axis. All this info is great for beginners learning chord structure.

[duane v]

That's one thing I do find interesting when speaking of theory directed at guitar, is that it's directed towards notation only. The expression aspect seems to be left out... Things like legato, staccato, slurring, trills, crescendo, decrescendo, p, pp, mp, mf, f, ff, fff..ect..ect..... And so many other signatures that transcend the notation / piece into something meaningful.

 

As Andy stated there only 12 notes, but until an expression is added to the notes, to me it's faceless.

[Andy R]

That's one thing I do find interesting when speaking of theory directed at guitar, is that it's directed towards notation only. The expression aspect seems to be left out... Things like legato, staccato, slurring, trills, crescendo, decrescendo, p, pp, mp, mf, f, ff, fff..ect..ect..... And so many other signatures that transcend the notation / piece into something meaningful.

 

As Andy stated there only 12 notes, but until an expression is added to the notes, to me it's faceless.

 

Duane,

Good point and also points out the different avenues you can pursue theory depending on what you what to gain from it and how you want to apply it. I have never really learned theory to apply to reading music. I understand the principles of reading music and can do it ( painfully slow ) I never had the will or enough patience to be proficient in reading. Maybe there is someone on here who has some more tips and instruction for relating theory to reading.

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

Deleted

[zigzag]

From the post I made earlier, you can build from the bottom strings to the top by subtraction. E.g. by going from the third string to the fourth string on the same fret, you have moved a five fret distance, 5 from 12 is 7, and 7 frets is a 5th, so that relationship is a 5th. This is useful for finding chord inversion shapes.

 

Learning the circle (cycle) of fourths and fifths is useful on many levels.

 

 

The way you find the keys in the circle of fifths on the guitar neck is, for sharps, start at C (no sharps or flats) on the 3rd fret, 5th string, then go to the third fret of the 6th string to G, and G is the second key of the circle of fifths for sharps, i.e. it has one sharp. For the next key to find the key with two sharps, go to the fifth fret on the fifth string and that is D. For the key with three sharps, go to the fifth fret of the 6th string and that is A. For the key with four sharps go to the seventh fret of the 5th string and that is E. For the key with five sharps, go to the seventh fret of the 6th string and that is B. For the key with with six sharps, go to the ninth fret of the fifth string and that is F#. Are we noticing a pattern?

 

Similarly, to find flat keys, start with F on the 6th string, 13th fret. F has one flat. To find the key with two flats, move to the thirteenth fret of the 5th string and that is Bb. To find the key with three flats, move to the eleventh fret of the 6th string and that is Eb. For the key with four flats, move to the eleventh fret of the 5th string and that is Ab. To find the key with five flats, move to the ninth fret of the 6th string and that is Db. To find the key with six flats, move to the ninth fret of the 5th string and that is Gb. To find the key with seven flats, move to the seventh fret of the 6th string and that is Cb. Are we noticing a pattern?

 

To find the relative minor of a major key, find the fret position of the major key and move back three frets. E.g. C(Major), B, Bb, A(minor)

[Duende]

That's one thing I do find interesting when speaking of theory directed at guitar, is that it's directed towards notation only. The expression aspect seems to be left out... Things like legato, staccato, slurring, trills, crescendo, decrescendo, p, pp, mp, mf, f, ff, fff..ect..ect..... And so many other signatures that transcend the notation / piece into something meaningful.

 

As Andy stated there only 12 notes, but until an expression is added to the notes, to me it's faceless.

 

I completely agree that these things are not cot considered nearly enough - and extremely important too!

 

On a personal level (we are all unique and have a different 'way'), theory is only something that comes 'alive' (and becomes exciting) if there is a 'result' that comes about through it's application: In isolation, it is just a formulas. In conjunction with sound, so you can actually hear what is meant by certain 'rules' etc , you realise why they are rules in the first place. That is what I was trying to say in my post above: that the experience of music being instantaneous and going straight to the heart, (not just as a figure of speech, but it really does) coupled with a knowledge is incredibly illuminating. The ability to compose away from an instrument and 'from your head', because of being able to write and think music, is just another reason why learning the nuts and bolts of music are so beneficial.

 

By the way, I made this video discussing tone changes with the right hand on the classical guitar, but I do believe it supports what Duane mentions about how dynamics etc are used in both theory and practice...see what you think!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2jAs-H41x8&feature=channel_video_title

[Andy R]

One bit of "Theory" for lack of a better term that I didn't really realize for years is that shapes and patterns/scales maintain their basic identifier regardless of where they are played up and down the neck. This is the basis of the "CAGED" method that is laid out very well in the Fretboard Logic books/DVDs. I will try to explain the basic premise.

 

The CAGED method utilizes the actual chord shapes of the open (Granny Chords) C Major, A Major, G Major, E Major, and D Major

 

We all (Should) know how to play these chords in the "Open" or 1st position on the guitar. We should also know what string when playing these chords is the root note (naming note) that in this position actually names them C, A, G, E, and D As A general rule the root note should be the lowest tone you are playing in the chord and on guitar this true about 90% of the time.

 

A small side track... ( ok I just finished... its a big side track)

 

If the root note is not the lowest tone in the chord you are playing then you are play an inversion of the chord. So For example using my earlier chord formula for building a Major chord we know that a purely major chord will only contain 3 notes of the chords root scale. the 1st, 3rd, 5th. So anytime you are playing a purely major chord you will be playing at least these 3 notes and if the chord form you are playing contains more than just 3 notes ( G Major for example ), the additional notes will just be 1 of the primary 3 notes repeated. More often than not you will find it is the root 1 or the 5th 5

 

So using an A Major Chord for example we know that the notes are A, C#, E How do we know this? Because we read my first and second post! but I will show it here again anyway as a reminder

 

When you are finding the notes of a chord you need to know the notes of its own major scale ( regardless if it is a minor chord, major 7th, minor 7th etc..) so we have learned this formula in our heads.

 

Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, or W,W,H,W,W,W,H

 

Starting with A we go a whole step to B,

From B we go a Whole step to C# (Remember no flat or sharp between B and C and E and F)

From C# we go a Half step to D

From D we Go a Whole Step to E

From E we go a Whole Step to F# ( You should know why now)

from F# we go a whole step to G#

From G# we go a half step to the octave A

 

So the notes of an A Major scale are A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A

 

Using the Major chord formula that we use the 1st, 3rd, and 5th note of a Major scale to make a Major Chord we know that an A Major will only contain the notes of

A (the 1 root)

C# (the 3rd )

E ( the 5th)

 

These notes can be repeated in the same chord but if there are any other notes other than these in the chord it is no longer a pure A major chord. This holds true with any major, minor, maj7, minor7 chord etc... Only the notes from the appropriate related chord formula should be present.

 

So if I am playing a chord that only contains the notes of A, C#, E then I am playing an a major, regardless of the chord shape, position on the neck, or strings being used. Now getting back to my point on Inversions a Pure Major Chord will have the lowest sounding note/tone be the root of the Chord. In this case the lowest sounding note/tone should be an A note. Concerning the 3rd and the 5th they can pretty much fall in any order concerning their relationship in tone. So could play an A Major chord where it is A-1 Lowest, E-5th next higher, back to the A-1, next higher, to the C# -3rd next next higher back to the A next higher etc... So in Summary a major chord can look like from lowest to highest 1,5,1,3,5,1,5,3,5,1,5,1,5 etc.. So long as the lowest tone is the root and you have that many strings and fingers....

 

So what if I play the notes of an A major ( or any other) chord but the A ( or root) isn't the lowest sounding tone? You have that open low E note in a first position A Major chord that you can play and it will still be an A major chord but it would be called the 2nd inversion of A Major Because you have the 5th of the chord as the lowest tone if you played a C# that was lower than your A then it it is still an A Major chord but in the 1st inversion so 1st inversion would look something like C#,A,E,A,C#,E, etc... your still playing an A major chord but it's using the 3rd as the lowest tone so it is the 1st inversion. Just as you can play E, A, E, A,C#,E ( 1st position A major including the low E on top) Still playing an A major but you are playing the 2nd inversion because your hitting the low E ( may not always sound good)

 

Inversions are more common on piano and I would also imagine Jazz and classical Guitar styles. My point is that as long as your only playing A,C#,E you are still playing an A Major regardless of order or how many of what note. This holds true with any other chord type, scale, etc... The "Key" pun intended is that you recognize that A,C#,E ( or insert 3 notes from another major chord) will always be a Major Chord and recognizing what is the root will allow you to name the chord

 

Continued in next post to get back on topic of CAGED method...

[Duende]

Inversions are more common on piano and I would also imagine Jazz and classical Guitar styles.

 

Yes this is true. I am loving the puns too! I have taken note of them all

 

Matt

 

 

 

[BigKahune]

.

This theory is great. I had already learned theory, notation and terms by the time I took up guitar. What interested me most was learning chord naming, which in turn helped me learn chords beyond the beginner's major, minor, and (dominate) seventh lessons.

[Andy R]

From the post I made earlier, you can build from the bottom strings to the top by subtraction. E.g. by going from the third string to the fourth string on the same fret, you have moved a five fret distance, 5 from 12 is 7, and 7 frets is a 5th, so that relationship is a 5th.

 

Learning the circle (cycle) of fourths and fifths is useful on many levels.

 

 

The way you find the keys in the circle of fifths on the neck is, for sharps, start at C (no sharps or flats) on the 3rd fret, 5th string, then go to the third fret of the 6th string to G, and G is the second key of the circle of fifths for sharps, i.e. it has one sharp. For the next key to find the key with two sharps, go to the fifth fret on the fifth string and that is D. For the key with three sharps, go to the fifth fret of the 6th string and that is A. For the key with four sharps go to the seventh fret of the 5th string and that is E. For the key with five sharps, go to the seventh fret of the 6th string and that is B. For the key with with six sharps, go to the ninth fret of the fifth string and that is F#. Are we noticing a pattern?

 

Similarly, to find flat keys, start with F on the 6th string, 13th fret. F has one flat. To find the key with two flats, move to the thirteenth fret of the 5th string and that is Bb. To find the key with three flats, move to the eleventh fret of the 6th string and that is Eb. For the key with four flats, move to the eleventh fret of the 5th string and that is Ab. To find the key with five flats, move to the ninth fret of the 6th string and that is Db. To find the key with six flats, move to the ninth fret of the 5th string and that is Gb. To find the key with seven flats, move to the seventh fret of the 6th string and that is Cb. Are we noticing a pattern?

 

To find the relative minor of a major key, find the fret position of the major key and move back three frets.

 

 

Agreed the circle of 5ths and 4ths is handy to know but can be confusing to a lot of people. I explain it this way:

 

Every major and minor Key contains a certain number of sharps or flats. So keeping this in mind there will only be one major key with 0 flats or sharps which is C there is only one major key that contains 1 sharp, one major key that has 2 sharps etc... up to 7# The same holds true for flats in major keys and can also be applied to minor keys as well

 

One thing to highlight here is just because a key contains flats instead of sharps doesn't mean it is a minor key or a major Key for that matter.

 

The reason we have some keys (major or minor) that are written/defined using sharps or flats is to avoid the usage of double sharps and double flats caused by the half step interval between B and C and E and F and to follow the alphabet

 

When you write out a scale you want each of the 7 notes to contain a different letter name from ABCDEFG so you don't want to write a scale and skip a letter name or use the same letter name twice f and if you can avoid it writing using double sharps and double flats. So given this we will end up needing to write some keys using sharps and some keys using flats to avoid doing this. This pretty much relates to being able to identify a Key Signature in Written music and is confusing and illogical.

 

AVOID - Example: Key of F major F G A A# B# D E F ( Although if you play these notes you will tonally still be playing an F Major scale) AVOID example 2 Key of F Major F,G,A,Bb,B#, D, Fb, F

( Again you can technically play these notes and they will tonally produce an F Major Scale)

 

So if we avoid doing such things we can quickly identify what key something is in by the number of sharps or flats it contains. Usually the first thing you will see in sheet music at the beginning of the piece is a certain number of flats or sharps written on the lines and spaces to denote what key the piece of music is written in. So if you remember that there is only 1 major Key and one Minor Key that shares the same "Key Signature" you don't have to look at the notes (line or space) to determine the key. Just the key that corresponds to the number of flats and or sharps written.

 

So here is what the circle of 5ths is telling you

 

If you stat with C Major you get

C D E F G A B C No Flats or sharps so if you see a key signature with 0 flats or sharps you know you will be in the key of C Major ( or A Minor ) more on that later

So if there is a major key that has 0 sharps or flats then there must be a key that just contains 1 sharp or flat, a key that has 2 sharps or flats etc...

 

It just happens to work out that if you start with the Key of C major and count to the 5th note in that Key you will land on G Which if you follow the WWHWWWH formula you will find you get

 

G Major = G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G ta da 1 sharp key signature of G major = 1 Sharp

Now count up from the G Major scale to the 5th note and you land on D

D Major = D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#,D ta da! 2 sharps Key Signature of G major = 2 Sharps

Now count up from D major to the 5th note and you will land on A

A Major = A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G#,A TA DA!!! 3 Sharps Key Signature of A major = 3 Sharps

So progressing through you end up with

E Major = E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# E Key Signature of A major = 4 Sharps

Note that each time you add a sharp you are including the sharps from the previous key and the sharp that is added is the 7th note of the scale

B Major = B, C#, D#, E, F#,G#, A#,B Key Signature of B major = 5 Sharps

 

F# Major = F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E# F# Key Signature of F# major = 6 Sharps (Don't include the octave)

 

C# Major = C#,D#,E#,F#, G# A#,B# C# Key Signature of C# major = 7 Sharps ( Don't include the octave)

 

So why can't we just continue with the Circle of 5ths? Well a key Signature only has 7 notes to begin with and we just went through all Major keys from 0 Sharps to 7 Sharps. If we tried the next key would be G# so let's see what happens

 

G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#,F## Here is where we hit a snag remember we want to follow ABCDEFG or in this case GABCDEFG and avoid double sharps or flats so in this scenario we would need some kind of F. Since E# is actually F ( remember E and F are only a half step) and we need a whole step note at this point to follow major scale formula WWHWWWH We're stuck adding a double sharp F##

 

So the way we get around this is using the circle of 4ths using flats

 

So we know that G# is also considered Ab so lets try it this way

 

Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G,Ab So the Major key that only has 4 Flats (Remember don't include the octave) is Ab Major ( since Ab can be considered a G# you could also consider this to G# major )

 

Ok we got a bit out of order lets now apply this so we can count in fourths to increment by 1 flat per Major Scale

 

So we start with C again that has 0 Sharps or Flats

 

C Major = C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C

 

So now we count to the 4th note which is F

 

F Major = F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E, F result is The Key of F Major has the key Signature of 1 Flat ( also not that F was not in the cycle of 5ths as a sharp key it was F#)

 

So Again We now start from F major and count up 4 and we get Bb

 

Bb Major = Bb, C, D, Eb, F,G,A, Bb Ta da ! Bb major has 2 flats ( Again you could technically also consider this A# major)

 

So Continuing the progression of 4ths ( remember ignor the octaves)

 

Eb major = Eb,F, G, Ab, Bb,C, D, Eb = 3 flats

Ab Major = Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G, Ab = 4 flats

Db Major = Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db = 5 flats

Gb Major = Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F, Gb = 6 Flats

Cb Major = Cb,Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb = 7 flats

 

So the cycle of fourths and 5ths are to quickly determine the key signature by just recognizing the number of sharps or flats.

 

You can also visualize it like this:

 

Cycle of 5ths

1 2 3 4 5

C, D, E , F, G, A, B, C

G, A, B ,C, D, E, F#, G

D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A

E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E

B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, B

F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E#, F#

C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, C#

 

Cycle of 4ths

1 2 3 4

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F

Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb

Etc...

 

 

Quick way to remember the order of sharps in the circle of 5ths is

 

Cats, Get, Drunk, And, Eat, Birds, (with) Sharp Fangs & Sharp Claws

 

C = 0

G = 1

D = 2

A = 3

E= 4

B = 5

F# = 6

C# = 7

 

Don't have a good one for the cycle of 4ths...

 

I also remember that C is unique in that

C Major = 0 Sharps or Flats

C# Major = All Sharps

Cb Major = All flats

 

Andy

[Andy R]

So to continue on the side track a bit with the circle of 5ths and 4ths and mentioning that this can be used to easily determine major keys I guess this would be a good point to discuss the Relative minor Keys. So what the hell does Relative Minor mean anywho? Well Simply put it is that Every Happy Major Scale has a more Dower Twin Brother that Shares its same DNA just in a different order which has made him more moody and sad.

 

As I stated in my first post almost every bit of Western theory takes its bases starting from a Major Scale. ( Go listen to the damn song already)

 

Ironically you derive the pure minor scale from the major scale. So where the formula for a major scale is

 

Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step or W,W,H,W,W,W,H

 

To make a pure minor scale you just start from the 6th Degree of the major scale and like we do with the notes in music, once we get to the end we start back at the beginning and work our way back through.

 

So what we are doing is taking the major scale W,W, H, W, W, (Starting here) W, H and circling back through to the beginning W,W, H, W, W,

 

So the natural minor scale formula is written as W, H, W, W, H, W, W, Again if you play this pattern you will always be playing a natural minor scale

 

So if we start with A and use the Minor Scale we end up with A to B ( W step) B to C (H step) C to D ( W Step) D to E (W Step) E to F ( H Step) F to G ( W Step) G to A ( H step) or Simply

 

A Minor = A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A So we should notice that A minor has no flats or sharps. We also know that C Major has no flats or sharps so they both Share the Same Key Signature and are thus called Relative to each other

 

So if you go through all the Sharp and Flat keys like we did For Major but use this formula instead you will find a matching minor key that shares the same notes ( just starting on a different note) and shares the same Key Signature with a Major Key

 

So as I stated in my explanation of the cycle of 5ths and 4ths post( in response to ZIgZAGs Excellent post on the subject) you can quickly tell what key something is in by determining the number of flats or sharps in the key signature but you also have to take into account that Every major key has a relative minor key that Shares it's key Identity. The quickest way to determine if a song is in a major key or a minor key is usually given away by the first chord. If in the case it Starts on an A minor (or other minor chord in the key) then most likely the song is in the Key of A minor If it starts with a major chord especially C Major you are most likely Playing in the Key of C Major.

 

So the quickest way to determine the relative minor to any major key is to either count up to the 6th note of the Major Scale your in or you could think backwards from the root of the Major scale and drop back a step and a half so either think CDEFGA or C B A But you always need to account for the whole step half steps so that you know whether or not the Relative minor is a Natural note or an Accidental ( In other words so you know if it is a flat or a sharp note) Since we know C has no flats or sharps we don't have to even think about it.

 

A quick way on guitar is to play the Root Major Chord (or just the root note on the E string ) in a bar form and then slide the chord down (lower towards the nut) a step and a half and make it a minor or if you think of one finger per fret on a 4 fret span on the E string for instance ( or any string) then your Index finger will be on the root note ( and Name) of the Relative Minor and Your Pinky will be on the Root note and Name of the relative Major for the key your in.

 

 

Keep on Rockin'

 

 

Andy

[stein]

Good stuff. I will be reading and absorbing before I comment more.

 

BUT, +1 FOR LAYLA for seeing the relationship between strings and applying,

 

+1 for ZIG for bringing up the cycle of 5ths/4ths.

[Andy R]

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