milod Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 To pass from Plato to Aristotle... <grin> I think we have in ways the same problem with defining and categorizing "rock" as we have with "blues." Over the past cupla years I've gotten a bunch of smiles on my face reading notes from younger pickers defining various sorts of "metal," etc., and yet frankly through the years I'd say that since "we" started to use the term, there has been an incredibly broad range of music that has been called "rock." That includes everything from heavy beat acoustic guitar strumming to soupy ballads about girlfriends getting run over by a train while trying to rescue their boyfriend's class ring ... blues/jazz-derived lead guitar, etc., etc. Oddly I've noticed that more than anything the "old" rock was stuff that three to a half dozen semi-pro guys could do almost off the cuff if they had an idea of the tune and key. Yeah, the quality would vary, but it didn't necessarily require a big production. Some of it was more jazz/pop, some more blues-like, but the more loose improvisational thing was generally the feel one could get. Even the choreography of doowop was the sorta thing that kids who went to school or sang on a street corner together could manage without six months of rehearsal. Then, it seems to me, the more highly staged productions entered the equation. So in ways the "type" categorizations may be valid in terms of technical description, but in terms of spirit, I'd tend toward suggesting there's "loose improv" rock and "production" rock. Personally I tend to prefer loose improv whether somebody calls it "metal" or "dad rock" or "blues rock" or even "country rock." But you pays your money and takes your choice. Sometimes the same bands start with one and turn to the other - and you can hear it. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And the small bands were easier to record, too. Yeah... Leon... The Master of Space and Time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yeah... Leon... The Master of Space and Time! You can imagine my surprise when I saw that old Shindig Footage. I thought Leon was born with Long Hair, Beard and Aviator Glasses. His recent induction in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was very touching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 You can imagine my surprise when I saw that old Shindig Footage... Mine, too. Nice find. I know that Leon had a time in his early history when he was associated with the likes of Willie Nelson... you can hear that influence in all of his great music. I'm just not a fan of Willie Nelson. Don't get me wrong, I like Willie's song writing and guitar playing, but I've begun to cringe when I hear his nasally, smooth voice; especially when he recently attempted to sing jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0KRQmXofq4 Classical meets Folk at a place called Leon Russell. Oh man! I really like Leon and Willie...but Ray gave them a musical lesson for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Mine, too. Nice find. I know that Leon had a time in his early history when he was associated with the likes of Willie Nelson... you can hear that influence in all of his great music. I'm just not a fan of Willie Nelson. Don't get me wrong, I like Willie's song writing and guitar playing, but I've begun to cringe when I hear his nasally, smooth voice; especially when he recently attempted to sing jazz. I know what you mean. I like Willie but can only take small doses. Oh man! I really like Leon and Willie...but Ray gave them a musical lesson for sure! Exactly why I chose this version. Ray Brings It Home! (Although it is Leon's tune, and the mix of Classical and Rock Ballad was why I chose that song as an example of Classical meeting Folk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lespaulj45 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 In 1948 check this one out-Saxophonist Wild Bill Moore releases "We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think a lot of the big band and small combos of the 20s helped for sure. Look at what Gershwin did. He brought jazz to new levels. Scott Joplin was certainly an influence. Of course there is Robert Johnson. Rock n roll was born from the blues. I'd argue that without all of them and others like them we wouldn't have rock n roll today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 In 1948 check this one out-Saxophonist Wild Bill Moore releases "We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll". I'll be damned! thanks I had to google his name (because I forgot it), but when this came up at university, a lecturer credited Alan Freed as the person to coin the phrase - but this pre dates that. Also, I just read that the term rock and roll was also a slang used by the military! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 With all due respect to various 1940s and 50s folks, I think one might consider that other than the electric guitar, some "country" music of the two earlier decades had white folks doing material as similar to "rock" in the 50s as black folks doing blues. The basics come down to this: We humans hear all kinds of music and it affects music we listen to and in private or public venues, perform ourselves. I'm convinced that "rock" was inevitable given the progression of music, the music business, technology overall and economics in general. All these variations of pop music, some closer and some farther from various streams of "folk" music, came through into the combo era with a heavier beat and increasing youth emphasis even among performers my current age or older. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMichaelG Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 you know what rock n roll means dont you? SEX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The RandyMan Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Who "gave" us rock-n-roll???? Nobody gave it to us-- it's been there the whole time. We just had to find it. And I think we did . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Back in High School I had theory a that "Rock" came from the 4/4 mid to high tempo time signature was (and is) often refereed to as Rock in written music, and that "Roll" came from the continuous repetition that just keeps Rolling. Made sense at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The RandyMan Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Alan Freed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Rock & Roll has many roots, country & western, blues, bluegrass/folk, big band & jazz. One man who seems to get overlooked but IMO was one of the most important influences is Willie Dixon. Just a few of the 500 songs he wrote; You Shook Me, Back Door Man, Bring It On Home, 29 Ways, As Long as I Have You, Evil, Hoochie Coochie Man, I Ain't Superstitious, I Can't Quit You Baby, I Don't Play, I Just Want to Make Love to You, Little Red Rooster, Spoonful, You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover and The Seventh Son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Rock & Roll has many roots, country & western, blues, bluegrass/folk, big band & jazz. One man who seems to get overlooked but IMO was one of the most important influences is Willie Dixon. Just a few of the 500 songs he wrote; You Shook Me, Back Door Man, Bring It On Home, 29 Ways, As Long as I Have You, Evil, Hoochie Coochie Man, I Ain't Superstitious, I Can't Quit You Baby, I Don't Play, I Just Want to Make Love to You, Little Red Rooster, Spoonful, You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover and The Seventh Son. Willie Dixon was the MAN. Besides the MANY songs he gave us and what his songs did for those others that played them, He also had a huge part in the rhythms and even the riffs we associate with blues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 stien, You will love this; http://www.willie-dixon.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 stien, You will love this; http://www.willie-dixon.com/ I dig it. We all need to give the man his due...nice to see he has a website. It seems new as it doesn't have as much info as one would think for such a man, (the discography has only his records) but really, a full discography might take an hour to download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Early 20's, Trixie Smith. Lyrics are "My Man Rocks Me, With A Steady Roll". 1934 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Bottom line: Rock as we know it today was an inevitable development; it currently is a term used so generically that, as with "blues," I question that as a general definition it has lost meaning entirely except as a synonym for "pop music of the late 1950s to date." Even the term "pop music" might have been questioned since it referred to music commonly heard on recordings, then various electronic media, in terms of sales. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Hi Milo, one thing about your observation. Pop music for the last 10 years has gotten away from Rock, it's mostly Hip Hop and Techno Dance stuff. Rock may be a broad definition, but I wouldn't say it's synonymous with Pop, at least not these days. And I still hold the idea that the "Rock" part or "Rock and Roll" refers to the time signature. 4/4 mid to high tempo was been called Rock way before the 50's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Firstmeasure... But don't forget there were quite a few 3/4 "rock" pieces as well as both "slow" and "fast" 2/4, 4/4 and such. Remember "Rock and Roll Waltz" that charted six weeks in the mid 1950s? The Beatles did more than a few in 3/4 (or 6/8) time. How about "Sleepwalk?" Also, I guess I don't consider hip hop and rap and techno dance material "pop" in the sense of the 1900 through 50s and 60s stuff. But that's probably due to my gray hair and the years that brought it into being. <grin> To me, considering hip hop "pop" in the older sense is an ontological impossibility regardless of sales records. <chuckle> m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Oh I realize it's come to mean more than the time signature, I just think that has something to do with the origins of the term "Rock and Roll". To me, Pop just means Popular. I never considered it a type of music, rather a reflection of the state of music. That said, Pop music in the early part of the 20th did seem to be a type of music. I've always wondered what makes the Boston Pops a Pop Group, but the Boston Symphony Orchestra isn't playing Pop? I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't know what Pop means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Oh I realize it's come to mean more than the time signature, I just think that has something to do with the origins of the term "Rock and Roll". To me, Pop just means Popular. I never considered it a type of music, rather a reflection of the state of music. That said, Pop music in the early part of the 20th did seem to be a type of music. I've always wondered what makes the Boston Pops a Pop Group, but the Boston Symphony Orchestra isn't playing Pop? I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't know what Pop means. I'd say you know EXACTLY what it MEANS, just don't know what it IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I'd say you know EXACTLY what it MEANS, just don't know what it IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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