Thundergod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Thunder does not hang out in here for the same reasons I do I will tell you that. Agreed. I'd never do that. Meeting males over the internet is not my thing (not that there's anything wrong with it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantha Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ^^^ ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenced Fred Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 He wouldn't know one if it hit him in the nuts! The quality of the wood affects how the guitar swings through the air, less wind resistence, faster hit. i'm not stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 The quality of the wood affects how the guitar swings through the air, less wind resistence, faster hit. i'm not stupid You are the expert on guitar nut hitting d00d Get dem00n over there d00d. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Agreed. I'd never do that. Meeting males over the internet is not my thing (not that there's anything wrong with it). Even if I was, you are not my type fatso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 There's a lot of good stuff here, so it's gotten this far along, I might as well defend the people that host this thing and offend everyone else. If I had a nickel for every time some guitar related internet bbs/forum/newsgroup/blog/whatever ended up in the dizzying death spiral of the overuse of the word(s) "quality", "quality control", or the uber kewl and all-knowing "qc" I'd be wealthy. Unfortunately for the overusers of this stuff, some of us lived through it. It is far more complicated then just some lazy a$$ union guy making way too much for doing way too little. When I started playing the guitar in 1971, guitars were Needed Luxury Neccesities. If you needed one, you needed it bad, because you played music. If you got one, you spent the money to get a good one, hence the word Luxury, because they weren't cheap. If you needed one, it wasn't easy to find one. In my town in the mid 70's, there were exactly about three places you could actually go and get a real Gibson, and they were prolly 10 - 20 miles away, and two were over the bridge in Philly. So remember, compared to today getting hold of a decent guitar wasn't easy. Decent meaning a Fender or a Gibson or a Martin. Wasn't much else. 80's came and Reagan promised a chicken in every pot, and an MBA and a RE license on every wall. The future was barely glimpsed, but it was to be a paper economy, all retail all the time. Selling anything became routine. A widget is a widget is a widget, don't matter what it does, anyone can do it and anyone can make fabulous amounts of money doing it. Large scale retail evolved, including the expansion of Sam Ash, then Guitar Center, then Mars Music. Couple others tried here on the Right Coast, but didn't make it. That expansion, that filling up of all available space with retail, that lead to more and more and more guitar players(musicians in general, and especially lots of singers). Later on, popular culture along with the televised versions of just how easy it all is, made it seem that being a pop star was about as viable an alternative as joining the service for most kids with no visible future. My high school class of 1978 had 6 guitar players. We thought we were an army. I work 4 days a week, and on Fridays when I'm home I'll see six gig bags on six backs walking home from the one bus stop by my house. Retail continued to grow. We've got two GCs and a Sam Ash within 50 miles, that's just on the Jersey side, down south. Had a Mars if anyone remembers them. Couple big family stores still exist, but they've been F and G franchises long as I been alive, so they are doing sorta ok, although one looked not long of this world last time I was in there. Magazines? When I was a kid there was exactly ONE, and we waited all month for the next one, and we went to the book store and bought it. Today there is an entire shelf in the B&N of just guitar magazines. Really? We really need 17 magazines with the latest junk from the latest crappy guitar company? When I bought a guitar when I was a kid, I cared about what it looked like for about three days. Because within three days it had gone out the door, and Robbie knocked it off the Spider and Billy spilled some beer on it and Mel left a cigarette on the cabinet next to it. Today, they go home, disappear into the Hit Machine Bedroom, and are stared at. I'm not picking on anyone, I'm not saying anything bad about anybody, I'm saying what it is. If a thing that has historically been used suddenly becomes something to be oogled and coo'd over on the internet, every tiny little thing is glaringly obvious. Most of what you peoples on the internet carp about as "qc" problems happen the first weekend out of the house, and worse. Ahh yes, the internets. Everyone, and I mean everyone is an expert on everything. Spend three minutes with the googlee and you've got 14 other 16 year olds with 500 dollar Gibsons that won't stay in tune. You are suddenly the vocal majority. Forget that anyone with any sense knows that a 500 dollar Gibson built to Price Point Specifications and designed to end up under the Christmas Tree because mom and dad don't knows hit about guitars is going to have the absolute worst machines money can buy, a nut that was stored next to the files, and a bridge made of the cheapest crap you can get. Forget that this kid has absolutely ZERO knowledge of what it is that makes a guitar be in tune, stay in tune, and intonate well. Forget that the digital t00ner he got with the guitar is worth more than his uber schweet Stadium Tone At Bedroom Volume amp and that he wouldn't know an in tune guitar if I hit him with it. Forget all that. Him and his 14 net buds all just got ripped off by Gibson, who obviously just makes crap guitars and is trading on their name. And that's all only part of it. Expansion of brands into all Price Points, moving manufacturing overseas and/or buying and/or Strategic Alliances with overseas makers, too many manufacturers, all of that plus the continued Homing Down of recording and putting garbage on the internet all helps. Or doesn't, depending on how you look at it. I've never once not ever had "qc" problems with either of the two(only, to me) solid body electric guitar makers. I have owned and gigged, wrecked and fixed up, and sold and traded probably hundreds of them two companies products. Have I been lucky? Sure. I am aware that all companies that make all things make dogs. I've spent literally hours in the GC during a fire sale picking the strat I've owned for 8 years and many many times many other guitars. Some are great, some not so great, gotta find the right one, Same As It Ever Was. I take them out and use them, so I don't care about a bit of orange peel at the scarf, top coat lines on the neck, a ding here and there from the local kidz playing tuned down Schmaltz Metal. You think it looks bad now? Check it out after a couple weekends of playing cymbals and carrying on like a moron. So I can't really type more, I've lost where I was going with it all. Suffice it to say that the world is different, more people buy them at more places, more of the dogs get out because that has to happen as they make more and more, and more people that have a bad experience spend disproportionate amounts of time on the internets then those that have a good experience. Less and less places to play means less and less use of these things out in the dangerous world, so more and more chance of getting a perfect guitar and keeping it perfect. The knowledge base shrinks to that amount needed to negotiate the laptop recording studio. Fret sprout? Bad fret ends? Don't even get me started on that. And so it goes... rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Damn. I want to see that! Thats terrible! I'm glad that my Gibson, though ordered online was perfect in everyway, (except the toggle switch giving trouble occasionally) Nearly invisible 2 piece back, (small piece by the control cavity) only way to tell is to look at the side grain. I returned two weeks ago with my cell phone to take a picture and it was gone, I guess somebody else liked the way it played too. To make it clear though, that's the only one I've ever seen like that. All of the other Studios had nice joins on their backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 RCT... I have a hunch that you and I come from very different "politics," but in effect have come to the same conclusion. What that tells me is that functionally we're seeing changing culture, not necessarily anything having to do with politics. Whether we blame this or that in terms of the political side - I could make an argument against the dems 'stedda Reagan - the bottom line is that ever since the '50s, guitars became far more popular and we've seen incredible numbers of them grow along with a doubling of population from when the boom began. Actually when I was at my first college in the early '60s, in our residence hall there were some 60 guys and some 45 assorted guitars and banjos - maybe 5 of the latter. Harmony and Kay died for various reasons, CBS and Norlin arrived. Etc., etc. I sometimes think it's a miracle that our guitars are as good as they are. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 The first rule in a competitve market is that you don't let a product get out of the door unless you can take pride in that product, even if it means slowing production. The second rule is if the customer has a problem, you do everything in your power to make it right. The fact that there are millions of guitar players is no excuse for letting inferior product out of the doors, especially at Gibson prices. There philosophy that someone will eventually buy an inferior product and the consumer is ignorant leads to the types of complaints we are seeing on this board. Personally, I couldn't care less if my guitar has a slight flaw in the finish- gives it character. But to spend $3000 on a guitar that won't intonate properly... that don't cut it in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 On Dem00n's defense: the melody maker isn't crap, it's actually one of the best values Gibson produced up til 2007. I got one and modded it and out of 4 other Gibsons I have it's my favorite. But then again, I'm a guy who likes simple guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 The first rule in a competitve market is that you don't let a product get out of the door unless you can take pride in that product, even if it means slowing production. The second rule is if the customer has a problem, you do everything in your power to make it right. The fact that there are millions of guitar players is no excuse for letting inferior product out of the doors, especially at Gibson prices. There philosophy that someone will eventually buy an inferior product and the consumer is ignorant leads to the types of complaints we are seeing on this board. Personally, I couldn't care less if my guitar has a slight flaw in the finish- gives it character. But to spend $3000 on a guitar that won't intonate properly... that don't cut it in my book. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 RCT... I have a hunch that you and I come from very different "politics," but in effect have come to the same conclusion. What that tells me is that functionally we're seeing changing culture, not necessarily anything having to do with politics. Whether we blame this or that in terms of the political side - I could make an argument against the dems 'stedda Reagan - the bottom line is that ever since the '50s, guitars became far more popular and we've seen incredible numbers of them grow along with a doubling of population from when the boom began. Actually when I was at my first college in the early '60s, in our residence hall there were some 60 guys and some 45 assorted guitars and banjos - maybe 5 of the latter. Harmony and Kay died for various reasons, CBS and Norlin arrived. Etc., etc. I sometimes think it's a miracle that our guitars are as good as they are. m I do think it is a miracle that our guitars are as good as they are! Both companies prolly shoulda died a few times over the last couple decades, somehow haven't. I only invoked the name of Reagan because that was the beginning of certain economic shifts that have got us where we are today, in an almost (seems) exclusively retail economy. Both sides, either side, all sides are culpable. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 The first rule in a competitve market is that you don't let a product get out of the door unless you can take pride in that product, even if it means slowing production. The second rule is if the customer has a problem, you do everything in your power to make it right. I agree completely. I don't think Gibson is letting all that much bad out the door. I really don't. And I think also, because it is my experience, that when something bad gets out the door and a reasonable consumer brings it back, they do everything they can to make it right. The fact that there are millions of guitar players is no excuse for letting inferior product out of the doors, especially at Gibson prices. I agree. But millions more guitar players means millions more guitars. Nobody but nobody makes anything perfect 100% of the time and anyone that thinks otherwise really is naive or not paying much attention. All stuff, no just guitars, all stuff. There philosophy that someone will eventually buy an inferior product and the consumer is ignorant leads to the types of complaints we are seeing on this board. Yes, ignorant consumers that don't even know how to tune a guitar, they do lead to the types of complaints we are seeing on this board. People that know next to nothing about guitars have no clue what is a flaw and what isn't a flaw, they only know that since it isn't what they think it should be, it must be a flaw. Personally, I couldn't care less if my guitar has a slight flaw in the finish- gives it character. But to spend $3000 on a guitar that won't intonate properly... that don't cut it in my book. Ok, I missed that part of it. I'm reasonably certain that if I dumped three grand on a Gobsin of any flavor, and I brought it back next day because it would not intonate, that I would not only be made whole in my quest for LP/V/Firebird/339 whatever I was hunting, I'd get a little more out of them. Prolly some cheap MM thrown in just for my trouble and time lost intonating a guitar with an improperly located bridge. See, I don't take it back(or have my mom take it back) and tell them it won't stay in tune like Jareds' Wicked Sweet UberCaster does. I can actually talk to them like I know what I'm doing, and Gibson will not allow me to own a AAA top-ed Les Paul that doesn't intonate. I'm certain of that. The finish is not warranteed in any way. Period. One person here had finish problems that were an indicator of construction problems, and that is warranteed. Finish ain't. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 i think pre-owned gibsons from the better yrs are the way forward at the mo, i won't be buying new till gibson sort themselves out that's my plan too Steve. I would take a good look at the used market before going for a new one... and even ifIdecided to go new - I'd take a very close look. Minor cosmetic damage is one, but when the playability or tone is impacted by a manufacturer's defect that's another thing entirely. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be willing to pay the kind of money a Gibson commands if the guitar is scratched to hell and supposed to be new either... there are limits as to how much cosmetic damage is acceptable before I would either pass entirely on a guitar or start asking for a discount. One thing to ask yourself when it comes to finishes also - when the finish is a solid color and no wood is visible, what exactly is under that paint job? Sometimes it could be something minor like the seam of 2 pieces of wood used for the body being off center and a transparent finish simply wouldn't look as nice, but there is possibility to hide some major fault in the wood that might be considered a problem by some people. I've heard stories of guitars becoming highly valuable because they have a particular finish that was seen as rare by collectors. The irony is that this color had been reserved by the manufacturer for factory B-stock instruments deemed unfit for sale to the general public and sold to the employees at deep discounts. The paint job was to conceal things like cracks, repairs and generally blemished woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ...I don't think Gibson is letting all that much bad out the door. I really don't... I bought my LP through the Interstate Music Supply catalogue. Ever heard of it? I hadn't either until they sent me a catalogue. It was the first electric I'd bought in 30 years. The guitar was flawless, but because it was shipped in gig bag inside a Gibson box, the pick-up selector switch had been bumped and it was funky. I took it to a Gibson distributor and they fixed it for free while I waited, as I hoped because I lived about 2 hours away. My next Gibson was an ES-335, and like an idiot (ignorance mainly), I bought it off the wall from Guitar Center after noodling around with it for 30 minutes or so. The set-up was done by the arrogant, piece of sh!t salesman who never once asked me how I wanted it done. I looked down the neck, and noticed that there was more relief on the bass side than the other. When I pointed it out to the salesman, he told me that was normal. I wasn't too concerned about getting it set up perfectly because I knew I was going straight to a luthier to have him give it the once over and do the set up. When I got it back from him, I checked it out and everything was fine... or so I thought. I got it home and everything was fine, but the next morning it was buzzing on the first fret and no where else. I took it back to the luthier and left it with him. When I went to pick it up a couple of days later, the luthier told me that the neck would not stay set in position, that it was twisted, and was likely improperly cured by Gibson. He said that he also found several other flaws, and recommended I return it to GC, which I did; no questions asked. They ordered a replacement for me from another store over 1000 miles away that was delivered straight to my door several days later. The binding on the neck was very inconsistent and actually dipped out of sight (looking from the top) over about a four or five fret distance. The cause was due to the neck not being semetric. Chalk it up to a characteristic of the wood it was made from (essentially, I believe that that specific piece of wood was not going to make a good neck, or the guy that shaped the neck did a crummy job). Plus, the pick-up selector switch crackled when I switched it, and there was no candy in the case. I returned to GC and another was ordered direct from Gibson. I also saw the first guitar that I had returned back up on the wall to be sold to someone else just as trusting (read ignorant) as me. After these experiences, I will likely never buy another new Gibson and certainly not one from GC. If GC hadn't had a decent return policy, I'd have likely been screwed. I have talked to a lot of people with similar experiences to mine with Gibsons, and from the looks of things on this board, I am definitely not alone. Two out of four Gibsons I've tried to buy had serious flaws. I would imagine that if you got the truth from Gibson dealers, they could tell you some real horror stories. I know of two who could, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Remember Zig, I'm not arguing with you. I do think that it is important enough to discuss. I don't need the last word, don't care enough about it. New people though, they might benefit from two guys yakking about guitars... I bought my LP through the Interstate Music Supply catalogue. Ever heard of it? I hadn't either until they sent me a catalogue. It was the first electric I'd bought in 30 years. The guitar was flawless, but because it was shipped in gig bag inside a Gibson box, the pick-up selector switch had been bumped and it was funky. I took it to a Gibson distributor and they fixed it for free while I waited, as I hoped because I lived about 2 hours away. k, that could be a real hassle, right? I have, have had since I was a kid, a box of stuff for just such an occasion as Foghorn would say, except in my case it would be for trades that need a little love. Shipping is the new trade in, it beats them up before we even get them. A flaky switch I'd have changed in about an hour, so that isn't "Gibson letting bad stuff out the door" to me. My next Gibson was an ES-335, and like an idiot (ignorance mainly), I bought it off the wall from Guitar Center after noodling around with it for 30 minutes or so. The set-up was done by the arrogant, piece of sh!t salesman who never once asked me how I wanted it done. I looked down the neck, and noticed that there was more relief on the bass side than the other. When I pointed it out to the salesman, he told me that was normal. I wasn't too concerned about getting it set up perfectly because I knew I was going straight to a luthier to have him give it the once over and do the set up. When I got it back from him, I checked it out and everything was fine... or so I thought. I got it home and everything was fine, but the next morning it was buzzing on the first fret and no where else. I took it back to the luthier and left it with him. When I went to pick it up a couple of days later, the luthier told me that the neck would not stay set in position, that it was twisted, and was likely improperly cured by Gibson. He said that he also found several other flaws, and recommended I return it to GC, which I did; no questions asked. They ordered a replacement for me from another store over 1000 miles away that was delivered straight to my door several days later. k, necks twist. Always have, always will. You got one not cured, which is corner cutting by the company. They are obliged, in my opinion, to replace it. Sounds like they did. As for setting it up, I do that. You too, after you've been around them forever, you will be doing your own setups and won't need anyone to tell you a neck is shot. I prolly would have noticed in the store. It is true that I can tell a guitar is a good one for me in about 1 minute, that's just the neck shape and how good it feels to play. To buy it takes hours for me, and that crooked neck woulda put the kaibosh on it. So yeah, they let a green neck out with strings on it, it twisted, you got it. Gibson or their representative replaced it, right? The binding on the neck was very inconsistent and actually dipped out of sight (looking from the top) over about a four or five fret distance. The cause was due to the neck not being semetric. Chalk it up to a characteristic of the wood it was made from (essentially, I believe that that specific piece of wood was not going to make a good neck, or the guy that shaped the neck did a crummy job). Plus, the pick-up selector switch crackled when I switched it, and there was no candy in the case. I returned to GC and another was ordered direct from Gibson. I also saw the first guitar that I had returned back up on the wall to be sold to someone else just as trusting (read ignorant) as me. Bummer that you got all them crappers, you got most of my lifes worth of dogs in one or two transactions! They replaced it, no? Yer happy with yer 335 I take it? I would be, because I won't give them that kinda money for that serious a guitar without being happy, and I assume the same for you. As for hanging it back up, Gibson has nothing to do with that. After these experiences, I will likely never buy another new Gibson and certainly not one from GC. If GC hadn't had a decent return policy, I'd have likely been screwed. I have talked to a lot of people with similar experiences to mine with Gibsons, and from the looks of things on this board, I am definitely not alone. Two out of four Gibsons I've tried to buy had serious flaws. I would imagine that if you got the truth from Gibson dealers, they could tell you some real horror stories. I know of two who could, for sure. Ok, I'll take all that. Come to my town, go down the street from GC to a guy I call GibsonBoy. He's been in business since forever, takes no shite from anyone including Gibson, and he'll make you extremely happy. Not a bad guitar in his store, not once, not ever. Lots of times Gibson and Fender take the heat for the ****** dealers and the dumb crap they try to get away with. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 rct, I'm with you. This is a discussion. I got too much respect for you to argue. I was not blaming Gibson for things out of their control. I was actually killing two birds with one stone when I was complaining about GC; I hate that place. Pick-up switch: not Gibson's fault Selling a guitar they knew was flawed: GC's fault Twisted neck: Gibson's fault Other flaws: Gibson's fault Neck binding: Gibson's fault Crackling pick-up switch: Probably Gibson's fault Rehanging severely flawed guitar: GC's fault All of my dealings with the 335 were through GC. I cannot complain about how GC handled the issues with Gibson instruments. They did the best they could to make me happy after I had complaints. Gibson was responsible for letting severely flawed instruments out of their QC. GC was guilty of selling guitars they knew were severely flawed instead of returning them to Gibson. GC's salesman was more concerned about selling a guitar and getting me out the door than doing the best he could to insure that I got a quality product. rct, you obviously have never sunk 3 grand into a guitar and then realized you bought a lemon. I made a 45 minute trip to GC, a 30 minute trip to the luthier, another 30 minute trip to the luthier after 2 days, another trip to GC to return the first guitar, another trip to the luthier after the next guitar came in, another trip to the luthier after 3 days, another trip to GC to return the second guitar, and another trip to the luthier after a week or so. All for my 335. Also, I have finally learned to do my own set-ups. But, I'm trying to be a player, not a technician. I don't do my set-up with measurements, I do it by what looks, sounds, and feels right. It took me a long time to figure out how to set the bridge to coordinate that with neck relief and truss rod adjustments. And it took me a while to understand exactly what the best way is to set intonation. Doing a good set-up is not that easy. The luthier I work with is excellent. He could tell me what is wrong with a guitar in 30 minutes when it might take me a year to discover it on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 rct, you obviously have never sunk 3 grand into a guitar and then realized you bought a lemon. I made a 45 minute trip to GC, a 30 minute trip to the luthier, another 30 minute trip to the luthier after 2 days, another trip to GC to return the first guitar, another trip to the luthier after the next guitar came in, another trip to the luthier after 3 days, another trip to GC to return the second guitar, and another trip to the luthier after a week or so. All for my 335. You are absolutely right, I have not put three grand into a lemon, so of course I'm going to say what I've said here, I agree with you. If I had, I might have an entirely different point of view. If'n I was fixin to buy say, 339 with a nice flame-y top or some other special paint job, I'd drive few hours up to NooYawkCity, couple hours out west of Philly, prolly down to Balitmore. Lots of work ahead of buying it. Which is the same as the work you did after I guess. I should expect a few grand for a guitar to get me an absolute winner every time, but I just don't, so I have to go and try as many as possible just because that's how I grew up. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 RCT: I know it was long, but that was a great responce to put things into a perspective. QUALITY has everything to do with perspective, and that perspective can be very different depending from different poeple, but the ONE thing you reminded us of is that there are some of us that buy guitars to use them as instruments, and even then there are different levels of that for all of us. I think you may be a little older than me, but I remember when the "investment" of buying an instrument had more to do with the ability to make music with it, and to learn to make music with it. While there was considerable vanity involved with the F and G brand, the main thing behind it meant you were ready to play, and the focus beyond that had more to do with your ability. In order to even DEVELOP the ability involved choices and sacrifices like either driving a nicer car (or at all) or investing in equipment, because they didn't really have cheaper guitars that in all honesty didn't deliver the same qualities. I guess a better way of putting it is that you didn't have a segment of the population that had guitars and amps unless they had a desire to play them and get good at it, because instruments of a certain quality were not cheap enough to buy just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 rct wrote: "Lots of times Gibson and Fender take the heat for the ****** dealers and the dumb crap they try to get away with." Unfortunately I think it's not just GC. I lost a lotta trust in the closest fairly large guitar store in my region - it's a half-day trek there and back - even though I've bought two guitars from 'em that I actually like and didn't get a horrid deal from. Dunno if it's the specific sales person or what. Another sales guy said he wouldn't have done things the way that got me miffed, but... I also would like to hogtie some of the kids that parents let run wild in the store and the store that doesn't force control even if they lose a sale. I'll add that I'm absolutely convinced that shipping/climate causes far more problems than "we" tend to blame it for. That even includes possibly switches. Even a bad neck... would it have been bad with a less violent travel to the store, climate-wise? I dunno. I also dunno if the best "assembly line" luthier could tell if there's something bad inside. That's also why I say that the Fender ball-bats - uhhhh, necks - have the advantage of being built separately and then bolted onto a board. If one has quirks it is certainly easier to replace as it winds through qc. I've a hunch straight maple may be easier to see in terms of wood flaws. The Gibbie and Epi neck complaints I've read about have been mahogany... Given we're talking US and China with probably different sourcing or at least somewhat different qualities, it makes me wonder about hog and set necks either in electric or acoustic pieces. Definitely... I agree that this particular type thread may be a really good one for relative beginners to read and think about. For example, I recall suggesting climate problems to one guy complaining about a guitar - and it turned out it sat in the reeeally hot sun on delivery, etc., etc. I think some of the Brit complaints also reflect on transportation and climate issues more than QC. How much can you blame some fret problems on manufacturing/wood aging, how many on climate changing during transportation, how much on owner's care in changing climatic conditions with however he/she lives their guitar life? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 ALSO: Today, with the ability to make lots of decent guitars that actually play well cheap, we get a lot of people that are able to buy and afford, and don't really need or desire to learn to play that well. In a lot of cases, they don't even learn to play well enough to learn what is a good instrument and what is not. With such a large industry that we have now, we also get a lot of dealers and salesmen that also do not have the ability to be able to determine what is a good instrument and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakerpimp Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Gibson's quality control has gone way down... no more gibsons [for me]. exactly my sentiment. i currently own an '82 and will stay in the vintage market or pre-, say, 2002. i've never purchased a new Gibson and likely never ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 BTW, I think there are a lotta intangibles in what makes a guitar choice. I wouldn't have used a Melody Maker on gigs if it had been given to me in 1965. I borrowed a Rick. Then later, in another band, I bought a PA system and electrified an old 7-string (doubled G) Harmony cheapie archtop to play - and I was doing fingerstyle lead on it. I still wouldn't have used the MM if it had been given to me. Don't ask me why. Right now I'd like to have a MM with equivalent quality to one I passed up in 1965. Funny thing, though... In '65 folks were already talking about how both G and F quality had gone down the tubes and how one should buy something from the '50s. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 It's not Perception beyond common folks abilities. After my experience with the Gibson Acoustics, I proptly turned around and tried Every Martin on the wall. While tones varied from axe to axe, quality did not. Same with the Taylors, consistent quality, tonal variations. Not so obvious with the electrics, because Fender had some issues on their MIA Strats that you'd expect to find on thier MIM. Like fret glue on the fret board, sanding swirls on the headstock. Stuff you didn't find back in the late 80's when Fender was trying to break out of it's bad reputation. Now they're lax and flaws have crept in. I'm sure a lot has to do with keeping costs down in a trying ecconomy, but some of it is just lackadaisical QC. Yeah, I said QC because after typing "Quality Control" for 5 pages you might as well call it QC, has nothing to do with cool. I openly reject the notion that I'm not capable of noticing quality workmanship as opposed to hurried workmanship. Here's a Fender Story to show what I mean. I have 2 MIM strats, one Deluxe Players Strat, one Buddy Guy Strat. Both higher end MIM's that cost similar prices. When I get the Deluxe delivered from Musicians Friend it has a Wire under the pick guard, sanding marks on the headstock (which is why I always look for that now), and Fret Glue on the Fret Board (also why I look for that now). After a few years frets are popping out and I've had to replace the guts because they heated the pots too much when they soldered it together in the factory. Buddy Guy Strat, my family got together to buy me one for Christmas. Same deal, delivered from Musicians Friend in Perfect Condition. Played like a dream, no sanding marks, no fret glue, the pots are smooth as can be, and to this day I have yet to work on it (knock on wood). I clearly noticed these issues and noticed when there were no issues, so I submit that I and others of my ilk are more than capible of identifying Quality, and identifying that there may be a problem with quality control in the Mexican Fender Factory. Quality issues that are frighteningly similar to the issues Gibson seems to be having. Had I only bought the Buddy Guy, I'd swear by the MIM's and say the Mexican Factory is as good as the American Factory. Had I only got the Players Strat, I'd say buyer beware. I know I should have sent the Players Strat back when I saw the Wire under th Pick Guard, but I figured it was a good guitar to work on, and I loved the sound and feel. Just what you'd expect from a $600 guitar. NOT what you'd expect from a Guitar that costs over a Grand. And I don't think you should have to spend $3000 before you can expect consistent quality. And think about it for a second. If People can't tell quality, then who do you hire for quality control? Gnomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 BTW, I think there are a lotta intangibles in what makes a guitar choice. I wouldn't have used a Melody Maker on gigs if it had been given to me in 1965. I borrowed a Rick. Then later, in another band, I bought a PA system and electrified an old 7-string (doubled G) Harmony cheapie archtop to play - and I was doing fingerstyle lead on it. I still wouldn't have used the MM if it had been given to me. Don't ask me why. Right now I'd like to have a MM with equivalent quality to one I passed up in 1965. Funny thing, though... In '65 folks were already talking about how both G and F quality had gone down the tubes and how one should buy something from the '50s. m That's because in '65 they Fender was in CBS' hands and the quality did go down and people noticed. Not so familiar with Gibson's history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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