Purchase plan: J-45 TV, 20th ANNI J-35 or 5-STAR J-35, Which should I pick ?

[gotomsdos]

Hi,buddies !

I'm considering online buying J45 TV, J35 20th anni, or 5 STAR J35.

 

J45 TV

http://www.music123.com/Guitars/Acoustic-Guitars/6-String-Acoustic-Guitars/J-45-True-Vintage-Red-Spruce-Acoustic-Guitar.site7prod527896.product

 

J35 20th anni

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222845

 

5 star J-35 on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2011-Gibson-J35-1-16-Built-Gibson-Master-Luthier-Ren-Ferguson-Perfect-/120818377950?pt=Guitar&hash=item1c215624de

 

======

ARE THE LAST TWO J-35s REAL ?

NOT FAKES OR SCAMS ?

======

 

I'm unfamiliar with them, not that sure of the

m, if you know some of them, tell me, please.

 

Background:

I'd like a Gibson with traditional "Gibson tone", so I was considering a Gibson J45 TV. Now I got to know J35 (Fuller's J35 and Montana 20th anniversary J35.), and Fuller's has a better price ($2699), I emailed Fuller's, he said his J35 is out of stock, will come in April next year. Reviews seem to show that J35 is more close to vintage rounder Gibson than J45 TV. So I'm considering turning J45 TV to J35...

 

Now As to Montana 20th Anniversary Gibson J35, I'm considering whether get it or not, I emailed the salesman of the site, asked if he could get the price off, he offers $3400.00 + $190.00 (shipping via USPS). He allows a 48 hours return policy...

 

Now I'm at a loss which one I should pick among that 20th anni J-35 and ebay Ren handmade J-35 !

I'd like the former's sunburst finish (I have HD-28, natural finish) and latter's Ren's handmadeness (probably better tone).

They're similarly priced. Hard to decide...

I need your suggestions or advice very much about the site, the guitars, the prices...

 

Thank you in advance...

[onewilyfool]

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222845

[Teer]

sunburst....

 

my .02 worth

[E-minor7]

The burst – that mountain-label is something special if you ask me. Do you like the white buttons better, just find some and switch.

2 alluring guitars – good luck

 

 

[JuanCarlosVejar]

Ren's signature on the ebay one will be worth more money in 20 or 30 years time . so I would go with the Ren signed one.

[gotomsdos]

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222845

Thank you for your quoting..

I got in touch with him.

I can not understand why he hasn't succeeded selling his J-35 20th anni yet. His post for selling (AGF, UMGF and here) has barely been replied for a long time. Since it is rare, great and at not a high price, why ? I'm sort of curious...

[Guth]

I'm with you on the sunburst. Just make sure that a decent return policy is in place before pulling the trigger. You want to make sure that you'll have some time to spend with the guitar after the initial thrill has died down.

 

Go for the tone!

[gotomsdos]

I'm with you on the sunburst. Just make sure that a decent return policy is in place before pulling the trigger. You want to make sure that you'll have some time to spend with the guitar after the initial thrill has died down.

 

Go for the tone!

Thank you for your the reminding. Both have a fairly accepted return policy. Now I'm communicating with sellers to get some more details..

[gotomsdos]

Now the key is I have no chance to try them. I can judge only by the current condition, pros and cons, the descriptions (if these descriptions are true). Sound is my biggest concern, but I don't know which one is better sounding...

Two are risks. The sunburst one is stunning, but with Ren Ferguson's hand made (if it's true), only guess, maybe better sounding, his signature shows that there is some effort from him himself, maybe better than 20th anni with his supervisation only. I know, all is guess only...So gotta give up sunburst, leaning more gravity to tone...

What do you think ?

[ParlourMan]

Buy both and return the least preferred one? funds permitting of course........

[gotomsdos]

Buy both and return the least preferred one? funds permitting of course........

At this point, I have one guitar bucks only..besides meal penny

[ParlourMan]

I know the feeling ;)

[JuanCarlosVejar]

Now the key is I have no chance to try them. I can judge only by the current condition, pros and cons, the descriptions (if these descriptions are true). Sound is my biggest concern, but I don't know which one is better sounding...

Two are risks. The sunburst one is stunning, but with Ren Ferguson's hand made (if it's true), only guess, maybe better sounding, his signature shows that there is some effort from him himself, maybe better than 20th anni with his supervisation only. I know, all is guess only...So gotta give up sunburst, leaning more gravity to tone...

What do you think ?

 

 

which everone you pick will be a great guitar . they only made 20 of each anniversay model so I'm sure there has been some control on the way those were built too . But the tops (of the guitar) that Ren makes are hard to beat .

 

So if you want more tone go with the Ren signed model

[EuroAussie]

Oh the burst ...for me.

 

btw: whats the difference between a J-35 and J-45 ?

[Guth]

Now the key is I have no chance to try them.

;;;

What do you think ?

 

This is what the return policy is for. The suggestion that you try both and send one back is a good one. You would be out the additional shipping charges (each way) for the second guitar, but it will be the only way to know which guitar sounds better. I wouldn't be willing to accept the idea that just because one has RF's signature on the label that it is necessarily going to have better tone (tone being in the ear of the beholder and all that).

 

I also don't think that a J-35 is necessarily going to exhibit a more classic, vintage tone than a J-45. I was able to hand pick a J-35 from Fullers back when I used to live in Texas and it was a nice guitar. However that guitar is now long gone and I far prefer my J-45 TV for that dry, woody tone I was in search of. I still really dig J-35s and would be happy to own one again, but just wanted to reiterate that there are no absolutes when it comes to Gibson acoustics, or acoustic guitars in general.

 

If you have a specific tone profile already in mind, it can be difficult to find a guitar that really matches what you're thinking of. Try to be patient and hopefully you'll find what it is you are looking for.

[j45nick]

btw: whats the difference between a J-35 and J-45 ?

 

$10, when they first came out.

 

$35 went a long way during the Great Depression, when the J-35 came out. $45 went a long way during WWII (1942, to be more precise), when the J-45 replaced the J-35. Seriously, to understand these guitars, you need to go to "Gibson's Fabulous Flat-Tops". If you don't have it yet, tell Mrs. EA to get it for you for Christmas. One of the best presents ever for a Gibson lover.

[gotomsdos]

Oh the burst ...for me.

 

btw: whats the difference between a J-35 and J-45 ?

Wow ! don't you know ? I count on you to tell me ...

[Red 333]

Oh the burst ...for me.

 

btw: whats the difference between a J-35 and J-45 ?

 

There are a few easily observable differences between my J-45 TV and Fuller's J-35.

 

First, the back of the Fuller's J-35 is braced just like an Advanced Jumbo, with the very low and wide braces on the lower back. My J-45 TV has the tall and thin braces. (I am speaking of the modern reissues here, not the original '30s and '40s models: I have seen a few vintage J-35's, and some of these had back braces even thinner than on the J-45 TV: they were like knife blades, practically). The upper two back braces are also relieved differently--there's less wood overall on the J-45 TV's.

 

The Fuller's J-35 also has a neck profile that's deeper than the J-45 TV's.

 

The Fuller's J-35 has the asymmetrical rectangular bridge; the J-45 TV has the belly bridge.

 

Peghead shape, tuners, and logo style and pickguard are different on both models, of course.

 

I can't remember (as I'm away from my instruments just at this moment), but I think the Fuller's J-35 may also have a smaller diameter soundhole.

 

From what I can tell with my inspection mirror, both the Fuller's J-35 and the J-45 TV have the same top bracing, which is the same as the Advanced Jumbo's. Historically, this was not always the case. Late '30s/early '40s J-35's were made with multiple variations in their bracing as the model evolved into the "Banner" J-45. There's an excellent thread about the differences between vintage J-35's and J-45's that you could search for, with lots of first-hand info from tpbii, who owns a glorious collection of many early Gibsons.

 

The Fuller's J-35 sounds a little rawer to my ear than the J-45 TV. Both are excellent, though. Wonderful guitars.

 

Red 333

[gotomsdos]

This is what the return policy is for. The suggestion that you try both and send one back is a good one. ..

Great idea ! But you know, I have one guitar bucks only... No way out

[gotomsdos]

$10, when they first came out.

 

$35 went a long way during the Great Depression, when the J-35 came out. $45 went a long way during WWII (1942, to be more precise), when the J-45 replaced the J-35. Seriously, to understand these guitars, you need to go to "Gibson's Fabulous Flat-Tops". If you don't have it yet, tell Mrs. EA to get it for you for Christmas. One of the best presents ever for a Gibson lover.

Yeap, it's cut history. heard J35 is closer to old J45 than current J45 like HD28 (HD28V, D28 marquis, D28 authentic, or rather) is closer to old D28 than current D28

[j45nick]

Yeap, it's cut history. heard J35 is closer to old J45 than current J45 like HD28 (HD28V, D28 marquis, D28 authentic, or rather) is closer to old D28 than current D28

All these guitars evolve over time, and the combination of features on a current "vintage" version of any of these--the J-45 TV, for example--may not really match up with all the characteristics of any particular period. At the end of the day, it's all about finding a guitar with the tone, playability, the aesthetics that speak to you.

 

I'm personally not fond of the V-neck or soft-V neck shapes of the original J-35's, for example, but others might like them.

[GotTheSilver]

I wouldn't be willing to accept the idea that just because one has RF's signature on the label that it is necessarily going to have better tone (tone being in the ear of the beholder and all that).

 

I absolutely agree with this statement, from personal experience. The J-35 with Ren's signature is part of a recent run where they made 16 each of three different models, the J-35, the L-00 and I forget the third (please no Rick Perry jokes!). Ren made the tops of all of these guitars himself, including the bracing. I recently got to A/B two of the L-00s. I was surprised by the difference in tone between these two guitars. One sounded thin and sharp. The other sounded warmer and more full. Between the two, I definitely would not have purchased the thin sounding one. I was not really grabbed by the other either, though, in that I did not feel like I just had to own it. This difference in tone came as a real surprise to me. I had always assumed that two L-00s hand made by Ren would sound pretty similar, that he would tune them to a certain sound. This is definitely not the case. I came away with the impression that Ren probably shapes all the tops the same, shapes all the braces the same and glues them all the same for a certain model, just like anyone else would, and that the tonal signature of the guitar comes more from the pieces of wood used than from Ren (or anyone else at Gibson) specifically trying to tune them to a certain tone. This experience pretty much killed any thoughts I had of custom ordering a Gibson acoustic, even if I were to request that Ren build it himself.

[rar]

... I had always assumed that two L-00s hand made by Ren would sound pretty similar, that he would tune them to a certain sound. This is definitely not the case. I came away with the impression that Ren probably shapes all the tops the same, shapes all the braces the same and glues them all the same for a certain model, just like anyone else would, and that the tonal signature of the guitar comes more from the pieces of wood used than from Ren (or anyone else at Gibson) specifically trying to tune them to a certain tone. This experience pretty much killed any thoughts I had of custom ordering a Gibson acoustic, even if I were to request that Ren build it himself.

 

There is definitely a lot of truth in this, though it's not quite the whole story. If Ren hand-builds a top, the guarantee is that you get a top built from a blank selected for it's tap tone and appearance by Ren, using braces selected by (maybe even cut by) and finished by Ren, using hot hide glue rather than Titebond, etc. But that's not a guarantee of tonal consistency. The build is consistent; therefore [sic!], the tone isn't. The resulting guitar will have a lot of music in it, and is pretty much guaranteed to sound absolutely wonderful to some people. If all goes well, it will wind up in the hands of someone who thinks it's the best guitar s/he's ever heard. But not everyone will agree, because everyone's ears are different and different people are looking for different things from a guitar. (I'd bet that a fair number of people choosing between the two L-00s you sampled would choose the one you thought sounded "thin".)

 

Does this mean it's risky to order a custom guitar? Well, sure it's risky, but not so much for that reason. Based on my limited experience, I think Ren is as good as anyone at building a guitar that hits some tonal target he has in mind. No one is perfect at this -- luthiers are often a bit surprised by a guitar turns out sounding a bit different from what they expected, and they're occasionally quite surprised by a guitar turns out sounding much different from what they expected -- but, as a general rule, Ren comes close. If you can tell him the tone you want, he can build a guitar that will sound like that. He gets a lot of practice satisfying the tonal specifications of very picky individuals. (Jackson Browne comes to mind as an example, but there are many.)

 

So the tonal variation in these limited editions is not a result of inability to achieve tonal consistency. Tonal consistency wasn't the goal. The goal was more like to build 16 great J-35s using 16 potentially great J-35 tops. I expect that all (or, at least, nearly all) did turn out great, each in its own way. Just like the originals, the resulting guitars will be spread out over a fair piece of the tonal map. As a result, I expect that I'd love some, but not others. Therefore, if I were going to order a custom, I'd try say what I wanted tonally -- ideally, in form "I want one that sound like this one {insert soundclip here}, rather than this one {insert soundclip here} or this one {insert soundclip here}" (to avoid potential misunderstanding inherent in the use of words to describe tone). By doing that, I think that the odds of getting what I wanted would be quite good.

 

No doubt that playing before buying is safer, though. After all, the bulk of the guitars built at Gibson, Ren had nothing to do with, and I find the best of them to be just astoundingly good. When you find one of these astounding instruments, do your best to make it yours! If Ren worked on it, the odds of it being astounding go up. However, each guitar is what it is and, at least for me, whether Ren worked on it or not doesn't really figure into the decision.

 

-- Bob R

[JuanCarlosVejar]

There is definitely a lot of truth in this, though it's not quite the whole story. If Ren hand-builds a top, the guarantee is that you get a top built from a blank selected for it's tap tone and appearance by Ren, using braces selected by (maybe even cut by) and finished by Ren, using hot hide glue rather than Titebond, etc. But that's not a guarantee of tonal consistency. The build is consistent; therefore [sic!], the tone isn't. The resulting guitar will have a lot of music in it, and is pretty much guaranteed to sound absolutely wonderful to some people. If all goes well, it will wind up in the hands of someone who thinks it's the best guitar s/he's ever heard. But not everyone will agree, because everyone's ears are different and different people are looking for different things from a guitar. (I'd bet that a fair number of people choosing between the two L-00s you sampled would choose the one you thought sounded "thin".)

 

Does this mean it's risky to order a custom guitar? Well, sure it's risky, but not so much for that reason. Based on my limited experience, I think Ren is as good as anyone at building a guitar that hits some tonal target he has in mind. No one is perfect at this -- luthiers are often a bit surprised by a guitar turns out sounding a bit different from what they expected, and they're occasionally quite surprised by a guitar turns out sounding much different from what they expected -- but, as a general rule, Ren comes close. If you can tell him the tone you want, he can build a guitar that will sound like that. He gets a lot of practice satisfying the tonal specifications of very picky individuals. (Jackson Browne comes to mind as an example, but there are many.)

 

 

So the tonal variation in these limited editions is not a result of inability to achieve tonal consistency. Tonal consistency wasn't the goal. The goal was more like to build 16 great J-35s using 16 potentially great J-35 tops. I expect that all (or, at least, nearly all) did turn out great, each in its own way. Just like the originals, the resulting guitars will be spread out over a fair piece of the tonal map. As a result, I expect that I'd love some, but not others. Therefore, if I were going to order a custom, I'd try say what I wanted tonally -- ideally, in form "I want one that sound like this one {insert soundclip here}, rather than this one {insert soundclip here} or this one {insert soundclip here}" (to avoid potential misunderstanding inherent in the use of words to describe tone). By doing that, I think that the odds of getting what I wanted would be quite good.

 

No doubt that playing before buying is safer, though. After all, the bulk of the guitars built at Gibson, Ren had nothing to do with, and I find the best of them to be just astoundingly good. When you find one of these astounding instruments, do your best to make it yours! If Ren worked on it, the odds of it being astounding go up. However, each guitar is what it is and, at least for me, whether Ren worked on it or not doesn't really figure into the decision.

 

-- Bob R

I agree with what Bob R says ,

Having Ren build the top does increase the chance will sound better but since the guitar isn't just a tip ... it also depends on the back and the sides , how the guitar is assembled is very important , different people work on one guitar so their opinions on how to do a specific process varies too . If Ren were to build a guitar all by himself then I'm sure that one built by Ren alone would blow most peoples minds .

 

but those guitars are built by a team of people so alot comes into consideration.

[GotTheSilver]

There is definitely a lot of truth in this, though it's not quite the whole story. -- Bob R

 

Bob, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say. You stated a lot of things I had in my head, but did not take the time to write out. I'm sure having Ren build the top does increase the chances of it being a very lively, musical top (not a dead thud). The main reason for my post was to advise the OP on the following - Just because a guitar has RF's signature on the label, that does not guarantee that you personally will like it any more than another guitar of the same model. When it comes down to it, you have a number of J-35s to choose from, but you don't know for sure how any of them sound. So at this point, you really can't choose one based on tone. You have to choose based on other factors and take your chances. The best you could probably do in this instance is call a store and listen to the sales guy play the guitar over the phone and ask him to describe the tone and compare it to other guitars.

 

On another note, it sounds like you (the OP) have never played a J-35 before. I think it is risky for you to buy one because you have the idea that it has a more vintage Gibson sound than any other model. I think most people would cite the J-45 as the classic Gibson sound. They have been on tons of recordings, a lot more than J-35s have, I'm sure. I think it is a safer bet for you to buy a J-45 TV. While not every single one is outstanding, most of them I have played have been really great guitars!