EuroAussie Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hi there, Im trying to learn to sing this track from Glen Hansard and Marketa Igrelova called Falling Slowly. Main reason being that I would like to perform it with my Mrs EA in our next gig. (who as we know here can sing) However, while I can take the lead with low key Johnny Cash type numbers when its starting to get high and delivery needs to be somewhat convincing I ht a bit of a wall with phrasing and hitting the higher notes. So here's a very much WIP of this track where I recorded today the guitars and sang over the top. I in particular have a problem with the chorus which is pretty awful generally but in particular in getting the phrasing, notes and delivery not right ..... plus I just cant hit for the life of me the high note on the end of the chorus (you'll know which one it is when yo u see the original video) ... so im trying to go down rather than up but its not really working. Anyway, feel free to take a listen and would love to hear your advice how to fix his as Id love to do a duet of this with my wife at a gig as this was our frist dance song at our wedding couple years ago. Here is the WIP version and also a live version where its done .... properly. Be honest now, I can take it as I know there is a lot of work to be done still, no worries ! thanks a lot btw: rocorded on my Hummingbird EA http://soundcloud.com/euroaussie/falling-slowly-work-in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hey there, thanks for sharing.. and good job.. your certianly on the right track.. how long have you been playing/singing this for? Playing and singing is a hard thing to do together and from my experience you need to know both the music and the vocal parts back to front and inside out before its possible to do both at the same time with conviction. I find if theres one or the other that I dont know as well as I should then I find myself having to think about it while im doing it which can put my guitar or voice off.. from the sound of it, you either were quite nervous or your voice has a natural tendancy for vibrato.. when you sing and hold a note your vocice wobbles and its the wobble that goes off pitch most the time making it sound off.. now that style of singing is fine but you have to try and work on keeping the note within a cartain range at the end of each phrase or it will be flat or sharp.. so yeah you need to work on holding your notes a bit more. if you can try singing the notes more straight and less wobbley that may help in itself. id say though, you do it with passion thats one of the most important things.. the rest comes only with more practice. just listen to the track your covering over and over. Its almost like when your learning the guitar.. I remember the trouble I had with making an F barre chord, and you try it and try it and one day you just get it.. to be honest its hard trying to tell someone what they are doing wrong as such.. I dont think there is much right or wrong in music, you yourself know you need work and thats the most important thing that you seem to have open eyes to what level your at and what you need to do.. but as you have asked thats my two pennies worth ;) just keep the practice up thats the best advice in the end.. like anything in life the more you put in the more you get out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyecon Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 EA.. I love ya man. You know we all do here. I have discovered that singing in a low voice and staying in pitch is very very tough. Perhaps even more difficult than higher pitch. and if you can't hit the high notes, you're right... don't try. Listening to your WIP.. I would suggest where you lose pitch, to change to a pitch that you can hit. And yes I remember how well Mrs. EA can sing! We should hear more from the EA duo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks Rabs, youre right, it does get a bit vibrato like there when i try to hold a note, havent really noticed that before but youre totally right. And that kinda makes me skid either left or right. Its good you brought that up, i will work on this more consiously. To be honest I havent worked much on this track at all, so there is still I need to put into it and get to know it backwards. Thanks for the feedback and advice, very much appreciated ! Hey there, thanks for sharing.. and good job.. your certianly on the right track.. how long have you been playing/singing this for? Playing and singing is a hard thing to do together and from my experience you need to know both the music and the vocal parts back to front and inside out before its possible to do both at the same time with conviction. I find if theres one or the other that I dont know as well as I should then I find myself having to think about it while im doing it which can put my guitar or voice off.. from the sound of it, you either were quite nervous or your voice has a natural tendancy for vibrato.. when you sing and hold a note your vocice wobbles and its the wobble that goes off pitch most the time making it sound off.. now that style of singing is fine but you have to try and work on keeping the note within a cartain range at the end of each phrase or it will be flat or sharp.. so yeah you need to work on holding your notes a bit more. if you can try singing the notes more straight and less wobbley that may help in itself. id say though, you do it with passion thats one of the most important things.. the rest comes only with more practice. just listen to the track your covering over and over. Its almost like when your learning the guitar.. I remember the trouble I had with making an F barre chord, and you try it and try it and one day you just get it.. to be honest its hard trying to tell someone what they are doing wrong as such.. I dont think there is much right or wrong in music, you yourself know you need work and thats the most important thing that you seem to have open eyes to what level your at and what you need to do.. but as you have asked thats my two pennies worth ;) just keep the practice up thats the best advice in the end.. like anything in life the more you put in the more you get out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks Eyecon, actually there is a live version where Eddy Vedder duets the song with Glen, and he keeps it quite low and within his limits .... I think i should take a few pointers from the master. Thanks again, Ill get there .... maybe later than sooner but will be fun doing it with Mrs EA ! EA.. I love ya man. You know we all do here. I have discovered that singing in a low voice and staying in pitch is very very tough. Perhaps even more difficult than higher pitch. and if you can't hit the high notes, you're right... don't try. Listening to your WIP.. I would suggest where you lose pitch, to change to a pitch that you can hit. And yes I remember how well Mrs. EA can sing! We should hear more from the EA duo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hey EA, for what its worth, I find some songs you just gotta keep practicing till you get it right.. if you find you can get the phrasing while listening to the recording.. then its just a matter of keep playing it till you can do it while playing. Those high notes are a killer.. i find if you really learn a song well.. then you can make it your own after a while.. but it can take a long time to get some songs. blackbird by McCartney is one example of a song it took me ages to get. just keep on keeping on my man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks Rabs, youre right, it does get a bit vibrato like there when i try to hold a note, havent really noticed that before but youre totally right. And that kinda makes me skid either left or right. Its good you brought that up, i will work on this more consiously. To be honest I havent worked much on this track at all, so there is still I need to put into it and get to know it backwards. Thanks for the feedback and advice, very much appreciated ! No worries.. also as a thought (and an obvious one).. practice by playing along with the tune in question and practice both parts seperatly.. get the guitar down to where you know it well and then add the vocals.. doing both at once is harder ;) And when you feel you have a better take feel free to post again.. will be good to hear how you progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Greg Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Use the proximity effect you get with mics for the lower register parts Then back off for higher parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks a lot Greg, I do recall your our regular recording expert .... cheers for the advice, and I will definitely try that next round ! Use the proximity effect you get with mics for the lower register parts Then back off for higher parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Greg Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks a lot Greg, I do recall your our regular recording expert .... cheers for the advice, and I will definitely try that next round ! I am no expert really, this is just pretty basic microphone technique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 A solid start already achieved.... Bear in mind the original goes into falsetto for the highest notes And your low notes sound uncomfortable So see how raising the key feels....try a comfortable bench-mark for the low notes (2-4 frets capo up) Then get comfortable with general falsetto and a bit of yodelling for fun.... Quite close to major success with a great song.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thank you, that is a very good tip also, in possibly looking to capo on 2nd fret, will give that a go also ! Much appreciated ! A solid start already achieved.... Bear in mind the original goes into falsetto for the highest notes And your low notes sound uncomfortable So see how raising the key feels....try a comfortable bench-mark for the low notes (2-4 frets capo up) Then get comfortable with general falsetto and a bit of yodelling for fun.... Quite close to major success with a great song.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp58 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hey EA! Just echoing what the others have already said. You're doing very well with this! My advice would be to just keep banging it out till you get it! Practice, practice, practice!!! It'll come. And BREATHE!!! It really helps when you have to push out the highs. And don't don't forget mic proximity, a simple technique that can really help the amplified result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Morton Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Use the proximity effect you get with mics for the lower register parts Then back off for higher parts. Gain and volume are your friend. Use the proximity effect of the mic but make sure you have enough there for the deep stuff. I would write out the lyrics and put a mark at you breathes, playing it live if you mis time a breath it may make it more difficult than it needs to be. Sounds good keep it up. JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Have to put this straight : The performance is a disaster. But, , , , , there is hope, , , and I mean it. You got the 3 main things somewhat right. 1 – The pitch. 2 – The timing. 3 – The expression. It seems to me you steer close enough to afford optimism. I won't pee on your sugar-pie, but I know and respect your passion for playing that much, it would be wrong and false not to speak out. I wish you the best of times on stage and that's why I need to be rough. Working with this is an ultra subjective task and everyone have to find their own way. But how about recording the guitar first and then add the vox on different tracks afterwards. In that way you can both concentrate 100 % on gettin' the odd corners right and compare f.x. 3 versions when they're done. With no guitar to steal attention, you can sharpen your focus on the weak/strong points and really get down in every note of the song. Because that's the main problem here. You sing quite fine lines, which then crumbles into small black holes here and there. Try to spot these mal-points and see if they occur the same places everytime. If yes, learn to cleanse them out. In case they move around and show up unexpected (that means new places all the time) you have to start with easier tunes. Maybe even children songs – there are many good ones out there. And sing often. Hum when you make coffee at the office - keep humming on your way to the baker - exercise low volume acapella in the bath – close your eyes and 'see' each and every note as an inner vision and repeat again and again till you have a tune under control. Then build from there. It's extremely important you know when you nail it and when you don't. In fact that's step #1. Finally remember to provide yourself with calm and manageable guitar tracks. Too much single-tone picking can be hard to steer by. Nice calm slower chords are good. F.x. the ones for Amazing Grace. Try that one or another like it until you become a master of the piece and can do it in sleep. The philosophy is that once you get the feeling and knowledge of how to control a 'simple' piece – then you can gradually move this standard - this grip - upwards. As said, I sincerely wish you the best EA – (and understand why you would wanna slam a cake in my face right now). Especially when I add that you will appreciate these words in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 EA....i try to sing new songs in front of people, it REALLY lets you know what needs work, and is also a great practice. This is not really an easy song, strong cadence and wording......but a great one...wish you luck with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy2009 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I love ya man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks again for all the feedback boys and girls, very much appreciated. And in particular Em7, Im really happy to hear how it is, because thats what I need to know. And I think youre right in that it is a real possibility that maybe, for now, this track is in the too difficult basket and i should continue with getting my confidence up with the old Johnny Cash numbers and even simple childres songs to get my basic technique improved. I think that is a very valid approach. There is no doublt that to get this song really right you have to feel it but also be fully comfortable in delivering it, otherwise it will feel somewhat strained, and thats not good. Anyway, I will keep on working on it, especially with everyones feedback and action these points of advcie and see how it goes. We'll see if this project will need to be shelves for a while or not ... I guess Mrs EA will need to wait a bit longer .. cheers ! EA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i find this thread as interesting as can be . hats off to EA for stepping up to the mark to be critiqued .... hats off for taking what was said with such good grace and hats off to Em7 for being direct . i find it very hard to say anything to people and would tend to just say nothing for fear of offending . i have played with musicians who have skin like tissue paper and even a suggestion that we try a song a different way ,the bottom lip sticks out for the rest of the gig .a few i wont play with because i find that selfishness so tiresome . EVERYBoDY knows that as musicians we tend to be a bit more sensitive than the average shipbuilder, that's a gimme. but i myself would be deeply annoyed if i was playing a song night after night that , for some reason i thought was ok because maybe i just loved the song so much , and the people i played with didnt tell me that it was crap . i know even ,my girlfriend has not said stuff before for fear of upsetting me .she's fine now but was afraid of upsetting me. false compliments come from a nice place sure but are really not a good thing for people finding their performing feet. maybe i'm not putting in words exactly what i'm trying to say very well here , but i stand by the fact that ........maybe if someone says to me i'm putting on a bit of weight , or , 'jesus who gave you that haircut!' then , sure it will sit awkward in the back of my mind , but if someone says to me that song isnt for you then i dont mind one bit. it's probably no good that all this is on a forum where the average joe will never see it. there is also the fact that some like pavarotti and some like dylan , i myself am a dylan type of guy and the tone and inflections go a long way to my enjoyment of a song. some people will just think i'm totally rubbish and i've learnt to deal with that ... how often have you heard ' bob dyaln !!? sure he cant't even sing !!' .... not getting the point these people are they. EA i'm guessing you play guitar for a while and are now getting the urge to get a few songs out of you ? i apologise if i'm way off the mark , but i'm 40 this year and was a bedroom guitarist most of my life . eventually coaxed out i was happy to play rhythm guitar .... but i alwas wanted to play and sing ..... took me maybe 6 or 7 years to get from maybe singing a song at a party after gig or in a lock in pub scenario .... to now singing 90% of the songs with the guys i play with now. i sure as hell dont think i'm a great singer but i sweat a lot when i sing and if i'm singing 'don't think twice its alright' then i have some ***** in my head that has dumped me in the past .... people seem to like the passion. the point i'm TRYING to arrive at is that the fear that i wasnt going to sing the song well was stopping me from ever singing it well . i wooried about the high note coming mid lyric , and gettin there means not thinking about anything , just like a perfect golf shot is effortless because of a clear mind . anyway , i'm rambling ... the thread just hit home a little , and EA , keep at it buddy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks for the support Blindboy ..... you know I treat it as a challenge and I know its all part of the process. Working in the advertising industry Ive learnt to have a hard shell, but Ive also leant the value of constructive criticism, and I think the points pointed out here by folks make a lot of sense. Bottom line is that I think there is a foundation there, but details, delivery and confidence is something that needs to be worked on. I do a couply Johnny Cash numbers at our shows now (and a Sex Pistols cover) and I love playing and singing. The great thing is that its a whole new world which is very exciting to explore, and there is a lot of diverse talent on this forum, and a lot of good folks, so Im happy to put my neck on the line to get the valuable feedback. Its all good ! i find this thread as interesting as can be . hats off to EA for stepping up to the mark to be critiqued .... hats off for taking what was said with such good grace and hats off to Em7 for being direct . i find it very hard to say anything to people and would tend to just say nothing for fear of offending . i have played with musicians who have skin like tissue paper and even a suggestion that we try a song a different way ,the bottom lip sticks out for the rest of the gig .a few i wont play with because i find that selfishness so tiresome . EVERYBoDY knows that as musicians we tend to be a bit more sensitive than the average shipbuilder, that's a gimme. but i myself would be deeply annoyed if i was playing a song night after night that , for some reason i thought was ok because maybe i just loved the song so much , and the people i played with didnt tell me that it was crap . i know even ,my girlfriend has not said stuff before for fear of upsetting me .she's fine now but was afraid of upsetting me. false compliments come from a nice place sure but are really not a good thing for people finding their performing feet. maybe i'm not putting in words exactly what i'm trying to say very well here , but i stand by the fact that ........maybe if someone says to me i'm putting on a bit of weight , or , 'jesus who gave you that haircut!' then , sure it will sit awkward in the back of my mind , but if someone says to me that song isnt for you then i dont mind one bit. it's probably no good that all this is on a forum where the average joe will never see it. there is also the fact that some like pavarotti and some like dylan , i myself am a dylan type of guy and the tone and inflections go a long way to my enjoyment of a song. some people will just think i'm totally rubbish and i've learnt to deal with that ... how often have you heard ' bob dyaln !!? sure he cant't even sing !!' .... not getting the point these people are they. EA i'm guessing you play guitar for a while and are now getting the urge to get a few songs out of you ? i apologise if i'm way off the mark , but i'm 40 this year and was a bedroom guitarist most of my life . eventually coaxed out i was happy to play rhythm guitar .... but i alwas wanted to play and sing ..... took me maybe 6 or 7 years to get from maybe singing a song at a party after gig or in a lock in pub scenario .... to now singing 90% of the songs with the guys i play with now. i sure as hell dont think i'm a great singer but i sweat a lot when i sing and if i'm singing 'don't think twice its alright' then i have some ***** in my head that has dumped me in the past .... people seem to like the passion. the point i'm TRYING to arrive at is that the fear that i wasnt going to sing the song well was stopping me from ever singing it well . i wooried about the high note coming mid lyric , and gettin there means not thinking about anything , just like a perfect golf shot is effortless because of a clear mind . anyway , i'm rambling ... the thread just hit home a little , and EA , keep at it buddy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Greg Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 EA to add to what Em7 has said. When you learn a piece on the guitar you learn timing, phrasing, which notes to play, expression etc… A lot of learning is to do with muscle memory (the voice is very similar to a muscle) and hopefully after practise you get to a point where you can play the piece without thinking about what you are playing. Some would say you only really get to enjoy playing music if you get to this point. Singing is exactly the same, you have to learn the tune, phrasing, breathing etc…. to get to a point when you can add your own expression. Now of course an accomplished vocalist will do this is a very short time, but the chances are they know their scales, own vocal capabilities, different techniques and expression associated with their own voice. So go back to basics, learn the song properly, notes, phrasing, breathing etc.., and then move on to add your own twist to it. I am afraid practise is the only way (and this may include breathing techniques and learning how to transition from your normal voice to falsetto (for this song)) and you may have to sing the song 20 – 30 times to get to the point where you really understand the tune. Over time as you become more accomplished it will get easier and quicker Rome wasn't built in a day, but strong foundations can be laid with daily practise - would be my mantra Hope this helps in some way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks Greg, I think thats very sound advice ! EA to add to what Em7 has said. When you learn a piece on the guitar you learn timing, phrasing, which notes to play, expression etc… A lot of learning is to do with muscle memory (the voice is very similar to a muscle) and hopefully after practise you get to a point where you can play the piece without thinking about what you are playing. Some would say you only really get to enjoy playing music if you get to this point. Singing is exactly the same, you have to learn the tune, phrasing, breathing etc…. to get to a point when you can add your own expression. Now of course an accomplished vocalist will do this is a very short time, but the chances are they know their scales, own vocal capabilities, different techniques and expression associated with their own voice. So go back to basics, learn the song properly, notes, phrasing, breathing etc.., and then move on to add your own twist to it. I am afraid practise is the only way (and this may include breathing techniques and learning how to transition from your normal voice to falsetto (for this song)) and you may have to sing the song 20 – 30 times to get to the point where you really understand the tune. Over time as you become more accomplished it will get easier and quicker Rome wasn't built in a day, but strong foundations can be laid with daily practise - would be my mantra Hope this helps in some way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madman_Greg Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I recorded my daughter in the summer, I found that due to her not being practised at breathing she was losing control at the end of lines I think we sort of got there in the end Here is a very short sample of the session http://snd.sc/xeNkUj PS excuse the dogs barking on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Hats off for your courage EA. Many of us here know how difficult it is to sing and play together, and then, sing and play in front of others. I've never considered myself a good vocalist but I've pushed myself for years to sing better. My daughter helps me now that she is studying opera! Also, my career is in the performing arts and I've been around enough voice classes and teachers to have heard a number of things that I've found useful. 1. Pitch - breath support AND thinking THROUGH the middle of the note rather that UP to the pitch. 2. Breath support - breathing with the diaphragm. Sounds so simple right? NOT! All I know is that if my chest is rising up and down when I breathe, I'm doing it wrong. You need to feel like your back is expanding(I know... weird huh?). 3. Open throat - when singing high, you need to have less tension in the throat rather than more. I never seem to get this and my daughter continues to criticize me ("you're pinching again Dad.. not good for your voice... look what happened to Adele!") The big thing for me in terms of getting a good vocal performance that isn't pitchy and weak, has been to "go for it". Remember that scene in "Risky Business" where the kids says "Joel, every so often, you just have to say WTF!"? I lock myself in my studio, put the headphones on and just let the performance out with full breath and full voice, performing like it means something. I've found my best vocal performances were when I said to myself WTF and went for it... and my weakest are when I feel timid or self conscious. Keep it up. Practice. Remember the adage "Dance like no one is watching"? Well... Sing like no one is listening! I'm including this recording I did of my cover of Clapton's "River of Tears" as an example of where (I think) I went beyond my vocal abilities by just going for it as if no one was listening. River of Tears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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