diver88 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I bought a regular Casino back in 98 or so and it seemed like really lower quality workmanship (made in Indonesia?, don't remember) I returned it. fast forward today I bought the "Revolution" IBJL and it was awesome, fit, finish, playability was fantastic. I took it in for a minor adjustment and it got damaged at the seller so they ordered a new one for me. waited weeks and the one that came in was dated from 09 and it looked like a cheap knockoff of the other. if I had bought this off Ebay I'd be screaming counterfeit/fake all the way. 1. no finish on body.. none, no satin along with sanding marks. 2. f holes painted black, very messy with the black extending around to the top. 3. the drawing and screened signature on the rear of the headstock looked barely printed, almost not there. 4. neck back bows bigtime, but a truss rod adjust will most likely take care of that problem. I can only assume the older model was just a poorly produced instrument, and the newer one was well made? has the quality level improved over the years or is it hit and miss? anything desirable about the one they got me, vs a newer production model? I've only held and played these three Casinos so my experience does not extend too far, but the last one by far is the worst as far as quality to me. how much a stink should I make or and I subject to getting another one of similar build quality? basically was I just lucky with that one nice 2012 model? thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Sounds like you got a couple of real lemons there. Have you tried looking at other ones from another dealer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Your comments 1 and 3 make it sound like someone deliberately sanded the finish off to make it more like John's real one. Why did they give you an 2009 to replace a 2012? Was the "seller" a reputable business? I would raise a very large stink. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver88 Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Your comments 1 and 3 make it sound like someone deliberately sanded the finish off to make it more like John's real one. Why did they give you an 2009 to replace a 2012? Was the "seller" a reputable business? I would raise a very large stink. :angry: the manager said the "Inspired by John Lennon Natural Finish" had been totally discontinued and he scoured his sources and found the only one left in the chain (in existence) and he would get it for me to replace the damaged one. it actually took about a month to get it and another week and a half to get it inventoried into the store where he could swap it out. when I went in to do the swap the manager was "at lunch" and an assistant that was completely unaware did the swap. I brought all of my concerns to his attention and he agreed the replacement indeed suffered from all of the points I made and said to take it home and play it because he understood that model was no longer available to them... until he checked and it showed in stock in the warehouse. he suggested I play it over the weekend and talk to the store manager on monday about ordering another for replacement. I called today and spoke with another assistant manager (manager wasn't in again) and he said there were no more available no matter what the inventory said and this was all they were going to be able to do for me since the model was out of production. the general attitude I had been getting (we will make it right) was gone and a stern "sorry you're not happy, but this is all we can do" is where they seem to stand now. at this point I apparently have two options.. 1. try to dispute the charge on my CC but my provider says I have to prove this guitar is significantly different than the description of the original purchase.. I believe that might be hard to do, how do I prove the finish is incorrect to someone in a letter? also the Lennon signature is poorly printed, not sure I can prove that's different than another one in a letter. then again, how do I prove this guitar looks like a poor example vs the one I had.. since I don't have it anymore? 2. Gibson/Epiphone said I could send it to them and when they got a new batch in three to six months they would send me a new one. this speaks to my original question, is the 09 model inferior due to better manufacturing and quality control on the new 2012 models or did I get lucky with the one I had that was damaged? this all occurred at Guitar Center, to be honest I've spent a bunch of money with these guys over the last 15 years and I fully expected them to make it right, what's happening now is surprising to me. I'd swear it looks like they dragged their feet so I couldn't dispute the charge (60 days) but I got it documented so I can pursue it today since it was the last day to do so. also, the management says this model is forever gone, whereas Gibson/Epiphone says that is not true at all, I'm tempted to order and pay for one on the website and have it delivered to the store and when it comes in just go in and swap it... see how they handle that.. at this point I'm assuming GC is the problem, but I still wonder if in general the 09 models were across the board regarded lower in quality compared to the 2011-12 newer models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Get a total refund ASAP. You my friend are being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 From what you have described, they replaced a new guitar with a 3 year old used guitar that someone has drastically modified. That should be enough for your credit card company. How can your GC say the guitars are not available when they are available on their own GC website? (I just checked and was able to add one to my cart). To answer your question about the '09 vs. '12 models, no the '09 should not be inferior to the '12. I had a new IBJL in Vintage Sunburst back in mid-2010 and it did not have the finish sanded off of it. I do recall some discussion back then about sloppy paint on the f-holes of some guitars, but that is still showing up on some of the guitars out of China (e.g. ES-355). Generally the overall quality was deemed to be quite good at the time, somewhere between the regular model and the Elitist. I don't recall anyone complaining about the finish being sanded off or getting a 3 year old guitar instead of a new one. If you do not get resolution through your local GC or your credit card company, I recommend you write a letter to Guitar Center Headquarters with a copy to your local GC, Gibson, and Epiphone. Include a clear and detailed description of the events that took place, as well as close up pictures of the issues with your guitar. I think you will get this resolved. I once bought a $3,700 limited edition Gibson guitar from an online retailer that was a disaster as far as quality. I wrote a long letter to Gibson explaining my dissatisfaction and included close up pictures of the issues. Within a few days two VP's at Gibson called me and promised to take my guitar back and build me a new guitar with the same serial number. They even shipped it to me overnight when it was complete. This is a somewhat different situation than yours, but I found the letter approach to be remarkably effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Get a total refund ASAP. You my friend are being played. +1 CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You should have a new receipt with the serial number of the inferior guitar you most recently received. Your 30 day return option starts with the date of that receipt. If you are within the 30 day evaluative window, return the guitar for a full refund and accept nothing less. They are not playing it straight with you, since this guitar is still being manufactured. Go up the management chain if you have to, and remember, the date on your receipt means everything in this transaction. Btw, the earlier examples of this model have the black painted F-holes, while more recent ones do not. Those without the often poorly applied black paint look much better, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver88 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 thanks guys. the sloppy painted f-holes is not that big of a deal I guess. the fact that I don't believe there is any satin finish on the body and you can clearly see where the body was sanded around the edges of the binding with a machine in sunlight, is not a deal breaker... or that it was an 09 and an Epi Reps salesman sample, and I realize the back bow in the neck can probably be adjusted (I'm going to try) but it appears the neck has a twist in it and that is a deal breaker if it is true. I did talk to the manager of the store last night and he said to bring it in for him to look over... part of me says "cool, he's going to do the right thing" then the other side of my head that doesn't appreciate being taken advantage of say's "he had this thing for over a week, he didn't look at it and inspect it closely after all of the drama that has occurred". (I didn't include the 8 page story of how the first guitar was destroyed at their store and the guitar tech attempted to blame it on me, then tried to call the insurance company and tried to add the accident coverage/after the fact.) he does say he'll replace it again if I want him too, with reluctance in his voice.. but avoided the question about a refund. I want to fair also so I'm going to attempt a truss rod adjustment today and if that don't get it, it's going back this weekend and either refund or get them to order another if one is still available. BTW, I'll try to put pics up to see if you guys agree or think my observations are off base. thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Hopefully the store owner will make good on his promise. Hate to see you have to battle with them over such a big problem. They should be looking more closely at the guitars they are getting in the store, before selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I bought the "Revolution" IBJL and it was awesome, fit, finish, playability was fantastic. I took it in for a minor adjustment and it got damaged at the seller so they ordered a new one for me. (I didn't include the 8 page story of how the first guitar was destroyed at their store and the guitar tech attempted to blame it on me, then tried to call the insurance company and tried to add the accident coverage/after the fact.) Twice you've mentioned how the original was damaged by the store's tech, but you haven't expanded on that, just what damage did the tech do to it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver88 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 Twice you've mentioned how the original was damaged by the store's tech, but you haven't expanded on that, just what damage did the tech do to it ? short version, when he finished setting the intonation, it fell over and broke the headstock off right above the nut. pretty traumatic to see your new guitar over there with parts laying all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitespike Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Believe it or not, a good luthier could reattach that headstock where you can barely tell. COuld you have them send it off to a well known reputable luthier, pay for it, and pay you extra for damages? I broke a headstock off before, and when my luthier Dale Steel got done with it I could barely tell. He claimed it was stronger than it was in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 short version, when he finished setting the intonation, it fell over and broke the headstock off right above the nut. pretty traumatic to see your new guitar over there with parts laying all about. Ouch, seems to be an incompetent kind of tech, handling guitars all day he should know how to handle them properly by now, though accidents can happen to the best of us I suppose. Not cool of him trying to shift the blame either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver88 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 Believe it or not, a good luthier could reattach that headstock where you can barely tell. COuld you have them send it off to a well known reputable luthier, pay for it, and pay you extra for damages? I broke a headstock off before, and when my luthier Dale Steel got done with it I could barely tell. He claimed it was stronger than it was in the first place. they told me about a luthier who was a marvel at repairing things like that, about $250 is what he would charge. I talked with him and he said "you'll know, but nobody else will unless you tell them".. but I was having a hard time with a repair like that on a brand new guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayF Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Believe it or not, a good luthier could reattach that headstock where you can barely tell. COuld you have them send it off to a well known reputable luthier, pay for it, and pay you extra for damages? I broke a headstock off before, and when my luthier Dale Steel got done with it I could barely tell. He claimed it was stronger than it was in the first place. I can understand doing this repair on a used guitar already owned. I fail to understand why someone would pay near market price for one with a headstock repair. As for the original issue. I would demand a refund and purchase one elsewhere. These are not all that rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Mine plays just fine......... ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzoboy Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 They are most certainly putting you off and yanking your chain and no doubt hoping that you'll give up in frustration.I have one of the first 50 '65 Casin0 JL models made and it is my favourite and by far the best of all my 30 guitars.If you continue to get the run around from these jokers put in a formal complaint to their head office.I've often gone over people's heads to get things done and it always gets results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhippie Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I bought a regular Casino back in 98 or so and it seemed like really lower quality workmanship (made in Indonesia?, don't remember) I returned it. fast forward today I bought the "Revolution" IBJL and it was awesome, fit, finish, playability was fantastic. I took it in for a minor adjustment and it got damaged at the seller so they ordered a new one for me. waited weeks and the one that came in was dated from 09 and it looked like a cheap knockoff of the other. if I had bought this off Ebay I'd be screaming counterfeit/fake all the way. 1. no finish on body.. none, no satin along with sanding marks. 2. f holes painted black, very messy with the black extending around to the top. 3. the drawing and screened signature on the rear of the headstock looked barely printed, almost not there. 4. neck back bows bigtime, but a truss rod adjust will most likely take care of that problem. I can only assume the older model was just a poorly produced instrument, and the newer one was well made? has the quality level improved over the years or is it hit and miss? anything desirable about the one they got me, vs a newer production model? I've only held and played these three Casinos so my experience does not extend too far, but the last one by far is the worst as far as quality to me. how much a stink should I make or and I subject to getting another one of similar build quality? basically was I just lucky with that one nice 2012 model? thanks.. Hey and welcome.....we are all keen on some nice pictures of the Casino.....go on!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldhippie Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Mine plays just fine......... ....... What is that on the neck? Was it broken and you just drilled two screws in ?? It looks painful for this guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeweyCox Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 What is that on the neck? Was it broken and you just drilled two screws in ?? It looks painful for this guitar. It's a joke. It's not Damians guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 After having to fix things with vendors almost every day, my suggestion is keep asking to speak to the next person that can make the decision to make your problem go away. Ask for a regional mgr. then go above that. IMHO if you take something in and it's broken that way, you are NOT obliged for them to just replace it. Esp. in the way they attempted. You should have your choice of the price back in cash that the guitar sells for. You can then look/play for a replacement and purchase it when you find the right one. Don't just give up and roll over. You don't have to be nasty, just politely stand your ground and clearly state what you need to have this corrected. Now go and get 'er done. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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