kebob Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not until recently have I been hearing the term madagascar rosewood -- is this something relatively new? I've had a few rosewood guitars, but I've only heard the term "rosewood" or "east Indian rosewood" up til recently. Does this term have something to do with the exotic woods dust-up with the feds Gibson got into or something? Martin is now using the term as well, I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAMELEYE Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Quite simple. Madagascar rosewood is rosewood that comes from Madagascar. Many like its tonal qualities which some feel is similar to the old legend, Brazilian Rosewood. Madagascar rosewood, depending on how it's cut can have a nice grain pattern that reminds one of Brazilian. This wood is all the rage now, with Martin and other companies upcharging for its use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Madagascar rosewood is a higher-end substitute for Brazilian, used by Gibson and Martin on some upgraded rosewood guitars. Its color and figuring are often more like Brazilian than the commonly-used East Indian rosewood. It has certainly been part of the controversy surrounding the use of endangered tropical hardwoods, and it is a protected species whose legal path from tree to guitar has to tick a lot of boxes, as do many woods these days. I believe Gibson uses it primarily for boards and bridges on higher-end guitars, such as the Legends, and also uses it on some special order and Luthier's Choice models for back and sides. You usually pay a substantial premium for guitars that use it, but how much of that premium is legitimately linked to the cost or scarcity of the wood is beyond me. Whether it is a better wood sonically than EIR, I have no idea, but it sure can be pretty. Like Brazilian and real East Indian rosewood, it is a member of genus Dalbergia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebob Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Madagascar rosewood is a higher-end substitute for Brazilian, used by Gibson and Martin on some upgraded rosewood guitars. Its color and figuring are often more like Brazilian than the commonly-used East Indian rosewood. It has certainly been part of the controversy surrounding the use of endangered tropical hardwoods, and it is a protected species whose legal path from tree to guitar has to tick a lot of boxes, as do many woods these days. I believe Gibson uses it primarily for boards and bridges on higher-end guitars, such as the Legends, and also uses it on some special order and Luthier's Choice models for back and sides. You usually pay a substantial premium for guitars that use it, but how much of that premium is legitimately linked to the cost or scarcity of the wood is beyond me. Whether it is a better wood sonically than EIR, I have no idea, but it sure can be pretty. Like Brazilian and real East Indian rosewood, it is a member of genus Dalbergia. Thanks for the info, Nick. I guess I just haven't bought a guitar high enough up on the food chain until my recent SJ-200 purchase. Thought maybe it was a replacement for East Indian Rosewood and thus considered a "lesser" wood, but apparently it's the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Isn't Madi on the restricted Cites list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 This is the back of my Martin CS21-11. It's madi as are the fret board, bridge and headstock overlay and sides. Pretty stuff and it sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Isn't Madi on the restricted Cites list? It isn't on the CITES list, but nearly all of it has been harvested illegally (because it came from Madagascar's National Forests). As result, it runs afoul of the US Lacey Act. While CITES and Laecy have been very good to me (I've been flown around the world, including to Sarzana, Italy and Montreal, to give talks on their impact on the movement of musical instruments across international borders), the laws have not been so kind to our favorite guitar manufacturer. Here's a piece I contributed to the New York Times. I've article upon article and interview upon interview on the topic and even a chapter in an international law text on the subject. But why pass up a chance to flag my guitar-playing in the New York Times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 This is the back of my Martin CS21-11. It's madi as is the fret board, bridge and headstock overlay and sides. Pretty stuff and it sounds great. Very nice. I think trees should be used to make guitars. Then re-planted. Kind of like a renewable resource. Just me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Very nice. I think trees should be used to make guitars. Then re-planted. Kind of like a renewable resource. Just me..... You'd think that'd be the natural process..put a little thing and let it grow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I believe Gibson uses it primarily for boards and bridges on higher-end guitars, such as the Legends, and also uses it on some special order and Luthier's Choice models for back and sides. Indeed. Some of the TV's spec's show Madi as boards and bridges also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 This is the back of my Martin CS21-11. It's madi as are the fret board, bridge and headstock overlay and sides. Pretty stuff and it sounds great. You really do have too many beautiful guitars Jannus :) And your collection seems to be mostly modern builds..is this correct ? It has been said here before.. but this seems a great time for collecting contemporary guitars.. what with woods becoming scarcer and scarcer ,,, markets collapsing and the world about to melt :P Maybe the last of the Golden ages of traditional guitar building .... ( probably not but still I wish i had some money to buy some :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 You really do have too many beautiful guitars Jannus :) Yes he does. And his house is too clean..... Mess it up some, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 You really do have too many beautiful guitars Jannus :) And your collection seems to be mostly modern builds..is this correct ? He has (or has had--he seems to go through a lot) some very nice vintage guitars as well, both Martin and Gibson. Like a lot of us, I believe his interest is guitars, whether modern or vintage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 There's no rhyme or reason to my gathering. I have some old and some new. It's probably more of an attempt at putting together a good representation of guitars with tone woods that I like that have interesting appointments and a smattering of iconic guitars at the same time. I've pretty much settled into the collection as it sits now although, a nice 50s or 60s era D28 might be added. Thanks for the kind words. Wish you could all stop by and take them for a spin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Wish you could all stop by and take them for a spin! Hey, we could mess up the place a little, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Very nice. I think trees should be used to make guitars. Then re-planted. Kind of like a renewable resource. Just me..... Murph, I agree 100%, but... If you cut down a forest of 200 year old trees, and plant one year old saplings,, net/net you've diminished the environment. Bird, bugs, reptile and water. Madagascar sat on their thumbs and let most of their forests be destroyed by the equivalent of ivory poachers. Now the world wants to close the barn door by having FIsh n Wildlife go after the horses. We have laws here in South Texas to protect 2 or 3 hundred year old oaks which are very rare and small compare to oaks in most other regions. But developers cut them down regularly, or kill the roots. Only one enforcer in the 7 th largest US city. Home Depot cut down a dozen beautiful ones a few years ago in putting up a new store. They were given a $10 thousand fine and had to replant. So, they took a dozen trees out of their garden center that cost the $5 bucks each and planted them in their parking lot. And, of course, everyone was happy. The exec that was responsible should have gotten hard time. Sorry for the rant. I agree, companies like Georgia Pacific work with university A&M departments and replant pine and quick growers at a responsible rate. Sorry for the rant. As I've written here before, it seems that hardwood is used for pallets and furniture ata more threatening rate than high end guitars. Charge a premium, so they don't use it on Cheapos, but somehow I don't think China has an equivalent of armed Fish N Fowl agents kicking down doors of their guitar factories. I'm especially agitated, because I'd love a rosewood to complete my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Murph, I agree 100%, but... If you cut down a forest of 200 year old trees, and plant one year old saplings,, net/net you've diminished the environment. Bird, bugs, reptile and water. Madagascar sat on their thumbs and let most of their forests be destroyed by the equivalent of ivory poachers. Now the world wants to close the barn door by having FIsh n Wildlife go after the horses. We have laws here in South Texas to protect 2 or 3 hundred year old oaks which are very rare and small compare to oaks in most other regions. But developers cut them down regularly, or kill the roots. Only one enforcer in the 7 th largest US city. Home Depot cut down a dozen beautiful ones a few years ago in putting up a new store. They were given a $10 thousand fine and had to replant. So, they took a dozen trees out of their garden center that cost the $5 bucks each and planted them in their parking lot. And, of course, everyone was happy. The exec that was responsible should have gotten hard time. Sorry for the rant. I agree, companies like Georgia Pacific work with university A&M departments and replant pine and quick growers at a responsible rate. Sorry for the rant. As I've written here before, it seems that hardwood is used for pallets and furniture ata more threatening rate than high end guitars. Charge a premium, so they don't use it on Cheapos, but somehow I don't think China has an equivalent of armed Fish N Fowl agents kicking down doors of their guitar factories. I'm especially agitated, because I'd love a rosewood to complete my collection. Only a very small percentage of these endangered woods is used for guitars. Most goes into furniture and other items of semi-mass production. Ditto with poached ivory. Poachers aren't killing elephants to make saddles and bridge pins for guitars. We are the sideshow, not the main act. In much of the developing tropical and semi-tropical world--where most of these tree grow--there is relatively little awareness of these trees as valuable long-term resources. At best, they are cut for domestic and foreign furniture (and similar) industries. At worst, they are cut for firewood. There is massive waste in the use of these resources. Governments in developing countries are often riddled with corruption that makes effective resource management a dream rather than a reality. One management tool is restricting end-user access, which is behind a lot of the international attempts at regulation. Clearly, this has had mixed success, as do most management approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Setting aside all these smokescreens a lot would have us believe, the guitar industry has pound for pound done more for wood conservation than anyone. Including Gibson. Most woods go to industries and end users who could care less about the wood, let alone the trees. Guitar players and freaks, by contrast, are nuts about the woods used and take an interest. And when you look at what the guitar makers have actually DONE to obtain wood and the action they have taken for conservation, it's sad that in the public eye they are being made out to look like they are the bad guys, as if they must be stopped. By contrast, if any one of us in our humble jobs did what the the Fish and Wildlife did regarding the Gibson deal, we would either be fired for screwing up or arrested for breaking the law. If they were a business, they would have gone under. Talk about a waste of resources. If there should be any kind of Govt. oversight, spend a little time scrutinizing that, and redirect those funds. Instead of going after guitar makers, they should be LEARNING something from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Instead of going after guitar makers, they should be LEARNING something from them. Amen brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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