What makes a guitar "fingerstyle?"

[meanstreak]

I was at my local open mic last night and took my new Epi Masterbilt EF-500R that I just put a L.R. Baggs element pickup in. The guitar really sounded fantastic, and I can say that with all accuracy because I let the host do a couple songs with it rather than my mediocre playing mucking it all up! Anyway I was talking to another guy there about it and told him it's described as a "fingerstyle" acoustic but I really couldn't come up with any reason to be called that other than the wider nut.

 

Are there other thing about the guitar that makes it a "fingerstyle" guitar? Like the bracing? Or maybe the shape/depth? Is my guitar a "jumbo" size or a 000? or 00? I don't even know really what those mean other than size (is that all they mean?) but not sure how to tell them apart. If anyone could enlighten me I'd appreciate it!

 

 

Here's an example of the EF-500RVS - http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/EF500R-VS.htm

[milod]

Well, I dunno why some folks will call a given design a "fingerstyle guitar" either - and I've been playing mostly "fingerstyle" literally for 50 years.

 

The V shape to the neck? Naaah, not for me personally.

 

The slightly wider 1.75 nut width? Well... maybe but maybe not since it does actually make some chords more difficult especially with...

 

A 25 1/2 inch scale? Actually I find that a bit more difficult than a guitar with a 24 3/4 inch scale - and especially with the wider nut. There are some factors of human/guitar geometry involved there.

 

Okay, those are playability functions that I personally don't care for. No thanks to a V neck, longer scale and even the slightly wider nut. (There are reasons why, but... it has to do with how I do some root chords.)

 

OTOH - if they're talking about a nicely balanced output of sound from a bass E to the treble E even played at the 12th fret, that makes a degree of sense.

 

Oh, Joe Pass tended to mostly play the ES175 fingerstyle, as have a number of other rather good pickers. Ah, but it's not an "acoustic?" Okay. It has the slightly narrower nut and a 24 3/4 scale.

 

Gary Davis played a big Gibbie J200 when I saw him in the spring of '64. That's a big old guitar too. 1.725 inch nut according to Gibbie, and a 25 1/2 inch scale.

 

So... I think there are some acoustic pickers who have used nicely-balanced soundboxes that are nicely set up for how they play.

 

But then notice that they tend to ignore classical guitars that are inevitably played "fingerstyle" with nylon strings?

 

Personally I think the term is used by a segment of the acoustic picker population who doesn't care to use a dread or J200 for fingerpickin' and uses the reference for smaller instruments that have a nicely balanced sound regardless.

 

m

[E-minor7]

For me it's primarily a sonic thing. A strong bass is preferred as the E and A string carries a lot in my playing-motor.

But the whole spectrum must be in balance - with itself, , , but first of all with your subjective style.

I tend to approach the G and B string with some upwards clawing, which can make that range boom out of balance.

Others wouldn't have that prob at all on the very same guitar as their touch may be different.

For strummers the issue would be a village in Russia -

 

I understand if some people sometimes thing I'm half weird when placing a small piece of duct-tape under the saddle-G-spot, if you allow the term hehe. . .

But if they knew the contact you get with each note when finger-picking, they'ld see/hear why.

Again there the strummers would remain totally oblivious of the spread out tonal traps.

[BluesKing777]

Good question!

 

 

Don't know!

 

 

In my neck of the woods, until fairly recently, the only acoustic guitar you could buy at a musical instrument shop was a dread in all configurations and of course, we were relying on the truthful words of the guitar salesman - the only man around with his finger on the guitar industry pulse????

 

I also read about 'finger style guitar' and their mysteries in guitar magazines very occasionally.

 

Both these sources of guitar information had vested interests and the dread was at the forefront.

 

 

ALSO...

 

 

I play country blues mainly and I play with my right hand fingers and I have been called a 'blues fingerpicker'. Lately, finger style guitar has begun to mean the Dadgad tuning instrumental style of playing that has roots in Gaelic music. A 'fingerstyle' guitar for this type of playing is very, very different than my fave 'fingerpicking blues guitar' - a Gibson L-00 Blues King or my LG3 and for 'Slide Fingerpicking Blues Guitar' - a National Tricone!

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Rambler]

Milod's is a good account of the difficulties in reaching a consensus (as Br Richards has said, "you're a guitar player, you play a guitar").

 

That said, let's start with what "isn't" a f/s guitar: a dreadnaught. Overbalanced on the bass end, narrower string spacing, tighter response, and need for heavier stings. By comparison, an OM or 000 is more balanced, wider spacing, quicker response and responds better to lighter strings. Not to say you cant fingerpick a jumbo or a dread (Rev Davis, Doc Watson, Skip James & Michael Hedges did), anymore than you cant flatpick an OM (Norman Blake). All things being equal, however, you are going to have to lean on a big guitar (& mute the bass) to get the sound that comes naturally from a smaller box. Take the J200: Rev Davis used em largely for the volume they generated and but he had a strong attack. Students like Stefan Grossman went on to use more responsive gutiars (we had a J200 in a local shop up here. Great sound, but stiff).

[mountainpicker]

I'm NOT a finger picker but the guys that I hang out with that are tell me that, for them, it's about the string spacing more than anything else.

[BluesKing777]

Milod's is a good account of the difficulties in reaching a consensus (as Br Richards has said, "you're a guitar player, you play a guitar").

 

That said, let's start with what "isn't" a f/s guitar: a dreadnaught. Overbalanced on the bass end, narrower string spacing, tighter response, and need for heavier stings. By comparison, an OM or 000 is more balanced, wider spacing, quicker response and responds better to lighter strings. Not to say you cant fingerpick a jumbo or a dread (Rev Davis, Doc Watson, Skip James & Michael Hedges did), anymore than you cant flatpick an OM (Norman Blake). All things being equal, however, you are going to have to lean on a big guitar (& mute the bass) to get the sound that comes naturally from a smaller box. Take the J200: Rev Davis used em largely for the volume they generated and but he had a strong attack. Students like Stefan Grossman went on to use more responsive gutiars (we had a J200 in a local shop up here. Great sound, but stiff).

 

Nice reply, R!

 

Another thing I meant to add:

 

After playing 'wider nut' guitars for a few years (Even a standard Gibson 1.72, compared to a fairly narrow nut Martin that I still can't get going on), I have found that I really love fingerpicking on my National Resophonics M14.

 

I always had some trouble getting separate notes on skinny nut guitars eg. playing fingerpicking Stefan Grossman version of say, Railroad Bill with a C standard cowboy chord with a pinky on the3rd fret/1st string, but on the wider nut and spacing guitars (I Have), I can now get the old Railroader ringing out like a bell......and here is the kicker - I can now go back and play it the same on a 'skinny'. My fingers are way, way smarter than my mind!

 

 

BluesKing777.

[onewilyfool]

Often it's more the player than the guitar...

[j45nick]

What makes a good fingerstyle guitar?

 

Any guitar I can fingerpick without it sounding like mud. (Still searching, still searching.......)

[QuestionMark]

Often it's more the player than the guitar...

 

Fully agree with you. I've been a lifelong finger picker and it doesn't matter which guitar I'm playing for that approach. Each guitar is, of course, unique and some I like playing better than others...but, I've never been able to grasp why one guitar is considered a fingerpicking guitar while another isn't. I will say, some guitars are better for strumming than others...but, that is a volume and tonal matter, which doesn't really figure much into my finger picking approach although each guitar none-the-less varies in its volume and tone for finger-picking, too.

 

I take it to be a marketing approach when a guitar is referred to as a finger picking guitar. Sometimes tied to the neck width, although really the neck width is actually relevant to fretting and not not necessarily finger picking which is on the non-fretting hand.

 

What's more confusing to me is what in the world is the difference between finger picking and finger style. To me, they are one and the same.

 

Interesting, though, to read others take on all this.

 

Just my two cents.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

[j45nick]

 

What's more confusing to me is what in the world is the difference between finger picking and finger style. To me, they are one and the same.

 

 

Fingerstyle: see entries under "New age Thingie Music"

 

Fingerpicking: see entries under Merle Travis, John Hurt, and the Rev. Gary Davis (plus others, of course).

[EuroAussie]

All guitars can be palayed fingerpicked, but for me the main difference is the nutwidth where I definitely prefer 1 3/4 to 1 11/16. Secondary I prefer smaller shaped guitars for fingerpicking like OM and OO, but slope dreads like the J-45 is fantastic, not so keen on square dreadnoughts for this style of playing.

 

And note Im saying finerpicking, not fingersytle which as Nick correctly wrote refers to New Age Thingie Music and those boring noodlers like Pierce Brosnan or whatever he is called and reverd on the AGF ...

[E-minor7]

Fingerstyle: see entries under "New age Thingie Music"

 

Fingerpicking: see entries under Merle Travis, John Hurt, and the Rev. Gary Davis (plus others, of course).

My comment counts for picking -

[Versatile]

A very interesting question, with many and varied answers and points of view...

 

For many it is as stated...Nut width...facilitating finger style with sufficient spacing between each string...

 

Other laudable deviations from the 'norm' being the virtuoso classical guitarist John Williams playing tunes on a Les Paul with his band 'Sky'

 

And John Renbourn playing Bach pieces and celtic arrangements on a Gibson ES330/Epi Casino...

 

Many creative players like to do things differently...

 

V

 

[BluesKing777]

Another thought - Chet Atkins seemed to have trouble finding his perfect fingerpicking guitar - all his life, according to a book by John McClellan and.....Wow! People use to throw guitars new and old at Chet to own or try and build anything he wanted play. But every time I see a clip or photo, he has a different guitar, except when he was on the pay.....

 

 

The rest of us in the cheap seats are running on luck, and I am very happy with a couple of my Gibsons and Nationals.

 

 

BluesKing777.

[Debonnaire]

After I bought the hg-00 I started reading everywhere that it was a fingerpicker's guitar.

 

The rationale seems to be the wide nut, and the fact that it is very loud even without a pick. Some people like the wide v neck, but I imagine that is a matter of personal preference. I have seen the sound described as "boom and sparkle" and that seems about right.

 

As a self-improvement project, I have been learning to fingerpick with it. Hard for me to judge as a novice fingerpicker who hasn't played anything else much.

 

I can tell you that it sounds great, and when i go back to my old country flatpicking ways, the guitar sounds a bit too untamed and loud. And when I try to fingerpick on my other guitar (a home-built Kay Kraft copy from 1937,) it sounds dull and flat compared to the Gibson.

[kidblast]

75% of what I do on an acoustic is finger style playing..

 

IMO it's in the hands more than anything,

 

what is key is there is good balance on each strings projection. Low E to high E, fretted verses opened etc. I find this is really important.

 

Also, the neck profile and how your hands are sized, (which gets around to the comments about nut size I suppose)

 

Another factor is the setup. moderately low, (buzz free) action is a critical factor, especially if you are going to pursue alternate tuning studies because you are all over the neck and the typical chord positions are not going to apply, so agility is very important.

 

 

Most of the body styles I notice popular with the fingers style players that I like to follow are smaller sized profiles, like grand concert or grand symphony as well as the 00 and even parlors, (eg: smaller bodies often with cutaways for upper fret access)

 

then again, Micheal Hedges, probably the grand master of em all, commonly used Martins, a D28 mostly from what I recall.

 

so back to my original opinion: it's mostly the Indian,, not the arrow.

[Rambler]

I always had some trouble getting separate notes on skinny nut guitars eg. playing fingerpicking Stefan Grossman version of say, Railroad Bill with a C standard cowboy chord with a pinky on the3rd fret/1st string, but on the wider nut and spacing guitars (I Have), I can now get the old Railroader ringing out like a bell.....BluesKing777.

Here is where it hit the limit of the "indian not the arrow" pov. For years, I played a late 60s J50. The narrow nut made the fret hand moves more difficult but I didnt realize how much the spacing was messing with my right hand until I picked up a Martin 000 with the wider spacing. All of a sudden, my fingers had some room to go to work. So, yeh, I could pick on that J50 but I could sail on the Martin (yeh, it's gone, too. Im an idiot).

[zombywoof]

I have never understood this obsession with placing guitars in categories. Style is in the hands not in the guitar. If you got a sportin' right hand (as Rev. Davis would say) then it does not really matter what guitar you play.

 

There are two kinds of guitars - those you like and those you don't.

 

For me wood, body style, scale and such mean little. I do prefer a thicker neck and wider nut and string spread. It does not mean I can't play a guitar with say a 1 11/16" nut just that I prefer 1 7/8" or 1 3/4" with a minimum 2 1/4" spread at the saddle.

[Ridgemont]

Often it's more the player than the guitar...

True. Big Bill Broonzy played a 000-28 that had a skinny 1&11/16" nut and John Hurt's Guild F30 had a 1&5/8" nut. They were both quite proficient at their technique even without the massive fingerstyle nut or extra string spacing at the saddle.

[kidblast]

Here is where it hit the limit of the "indian not the arrow" pov. For years, I played a late 60s J50. The narrow nut made the fret hand moves more difficult but I didnt realize how much the spacing was messing with my right hand until I picked up a Martin 000 with the wider spacing. All of a sudden, my fingers had some room to go to work. So, yeh, I could pick on that J50 but I could sail on the Martin (yeh, it's gone, too. Im an idiot).

 

 

I'm sure there's some thing there with spacing, neck profile itself makes a big difference for me. My Alvarez has a martinish neck, I'm much more at home on my taylors when doing finger style playing for sure.

 

I have small hands, so the strings spacing with the fingers I have, may not come in to the equation like it would if I was endowed with bigger paws.

[meanstreak]

this has been a very interesting read! Nice to hear everyone's point of view! I have found that this Epi is by far my favorite of the four Masterbilts I own. I never realized in the past just how much better playing on a wider nut guitar would be for me! I just got my J-45 about a month ago and it played so magically, so effortlessly compared to the smaller nut and longer scale AJ & DR masterbilts I have I decided I needed to buy an EF to check out a Masterbilt with the same wide spacing. My hands are huge and chubby (I'm 6'4" and 275lbs) and the V neck and wide spacing make playing so much better lol. Up until a month or so ago I really only ever focused on the types of wood and shape of the shoulders, what a mistake! Lately I've become a bit obsessed with learning more about the small differences between guitars and want to hear what others have to say about it every chance I get.

[milod]

Meanstreak...

 

I'm convinced that one's physical "geometry" vis a vis a given instrument is very important in playing comfort.

 

But I'm equally convinced that one's style of playing plays also a significant role.

 

For example, I began on classical guitars playing rather ... <grin> classically. Then I got into rock, electrics, etc., etc.

 

Yeah, I still do a bit of classical; I can pound out some bluegrass rhythm, etc.

 

But mostly I play fingerstyle or fingerpickin' whatever you wanna call it. From Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring to Freight Train to Satin Doll or whatever heading across a lotta genres, sometimes backing vocal, sometimes just an instrumental solo thing.

 

My hands are small/average. Nowadays I'm absolutely most comfortable with the 1 11/16 nut width and 24 1/3 inch scale on a 16" lower bout hollowbody or small archtop such as the ES175. I definitely do not care for a "V" neck or even a "D" sorta fat neck. I like a relatively shallow C.

 

I do a few things with root chords that a wider fingerboard makes difficult - and so does a narrower fingerboard. I dislike Fender necks due largely to their fingerboard radius. Gimme a 12 or 14, preferably the latter.

 

I'm convinced too that "comfort" playing has to do with a combination of all the above sorts of variables.

 

<grin> Watch a Joe Pass vid and tell me the 175 ain't a fingerstyle guitar. <grin>

 

m

[fretplay]

What is a finger style guitar? Hm! I think I've got one. A Gibson Cascade. Very light body, maple back and sides, cedar top and no pick guard. Very bright sound.

 

I only play it as home because it just doesn't strum. So when I play out where I may need to strum on one or two songs I use my Martin 00028 which picks and strums beautifully.

[kidblast]

well matter of fact, I have read that cedar tops are supposedly a very good choice for finger style players.

 

I guess, being a bit softer, maybe they have a more even projection.

 

My Taylor GS has a cedar top, my 314CE is spruce, there's definitely more edge to the 314..