charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I Love EC, but...I must BE "getting old!" I've been listening to some (other) "blues" by some of my other favorite players, as well, and I'm getting increasingly disillusioned of the "thin/fizzy" distortion, too often employed (IMHO) nowadays. Not the rich, harmonic, tube overdrive, that I (still) Love...but, what seems to have been introduced, over the years, that sounds to me, anyway, (for lack of a better description) "Fizzy" and "thin!" I'm not picking on Eric's playing, at all...but, I have to wonder, anymore, "why" the penchant for "thin," as opposed to "rich/full/harmonic" simple tube tone? Is it the smaller amps, compared to the fuller "Marshall Stacks," is it the mix, at the board, or in the studio? What?! It just seems to me, that there's a penchant for too much "distortion," that actually kills "tone!" Most of my favorite blues, and blues rock, recordings (and even "live" performances, involve little more, than a guitar, a great player, and his amp! Pedals, weren't even around, much...if at all, in some cases. So, the "tone" didn't sound so "processed," as it often does, now. And/Or...Is it just Me? Oh, I don't know...maybe my bloodsugar is just low?! LOL CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 And/Or...Is it just Me? CB It might be,, are you listening on your computer speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 It might be,, are you listening on your computer speakers? No, on a decent stereo! But, even "live," I hear it! Where the amount of distortion, kills the actual "tone" of the guitar and/or amp. It's probably just "me"??? :unsure: CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quapman Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Lol,,, awwww,, don't feel bad CB,, I was jus messin with ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Sounds like humbuckers with overdrive to me, sure it is a bit saturated and on the thinner side but single note blues playing always benefited from the thinness that cuts through the mix. If something I find it fairly traditional sounding...after all this clip is from 1996. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Well, I can't be sure what the "fizz" you talk of is just because describing a sound is all but impossible, but.... I think I know what you mean and if I'm right, what you're not liking is modern amps overdriving the preamp valves, inverter and the power amp valves at the same time. I don't know why people do this and I hate it. I can see why amp makers build amps where it's possible, it means you can choose one or the other when you're dialing it in but when you get both going, in certain amps, it sounds dreadful. I also notice that sound guys, even for some huge names, are terrible these days. I went to see EC with a fellow forum member a while ago in the Albert Hall. Now remember, this is a round room with a dome shaped roof, they had two separate speaker stacks, one either side. It was literally like putting the same recording on two stereos with a half second time lapse. Usually, anyone half decent will only have 1 sound source in that place. I've also noticed sound guys have set up a stage and mics in such a way that there is phase cancellation from 2 mics badly placed, or from 2 sound sources, also badly placed, this thins out the sound dreadfully. You could also be talking about nasty silicone fuzz, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Sounds like humbuckers with overdrive to me, sure it is a bit saturated and on the thinner side but single note blues playing always benefited from the thinness that cuts through the mix. If something I find it fairly traditional sounding...after all this clip is from 1996. Granted...but, it still sounds "thin" as opposed to "cutting" to me. Almost like it's not the guitar, as much as the "effect" or even the amp? EC knows Good Tone! I've heard him, with great tone, many times. So..??? I wonder, too...if this "fizzy" tone, reaction of mine, is due to a recent concert I attended, in Wichita (Cotillion Ballroom), of "Trampled Under Foot" (AKA TUF), where their guitar player used only his (various) guitars, and a Twin Reverb. No pedals (save a tuner), at all! It sounded Wonderful! Rich, dense, loads of sustain (no matter which guitar..from single coils, to humbuckers) and just "enough" overdrive "grit," but without even a hint of the "fizz!" That was the natural overdrive tone, I grew up hearing. It was such a pleasure, and "breath of fresh air," to hear it, once again. I remember that particular guitar tone, even in the "horn bands" of that day, as well. And, there was absolutely no loss of the guitar "cutting through the mix," back then. So...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Do you mean like this... I find this "thin" tone to be a thing of utter beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Well, I can't be sure what the "fizz" you talk of is just because describing a sound is all but impossible, but.... I think I know what you mean and if I'm right, what you're not liking is modern amps overdriving the preamp valves, inverter and the power amp valves at the same time. I don't know why people do this and I hate it. I can see why amp makers build amps where it's possible, it means you can choose one or the other when you're dialing it in but when you get both going, in certain amps, it sounds dreadful. I also notice that sound guys, even for some huge names, are terrible these days. I went to see EC with a fellow forum member a while ago in the Albert Hall. Now remember, this is a round room with a dome shaped roof, they had two separate speaker stacks, one either side. It was literally like putting the same recording on two stereos with a half second time lapse. Usually, anyone half decent will only have 1 sound source in that place. I've also noticed sound guys have set up a stage and mics in such a way that there is phase cancellation from 2 mics badly placed, or from 2 sound sources, also badly placed, this thins out the sound dreadfully. You could also be talking about nasty silicone fuzz, who knows. Farns, Yes...I think you DO know, what I'm referring to. I realize "Fizz" is not a very accurate description, but, that's exactly how it sounds, to me. Too "Buzzy Bee's," and not enough actual (old school) amp tone! You may be right, about the modern amps, too? I much prefer "old School" in amp tone, and it's rich, toneful, simplicity. Always have, always will. But, it may be because that's what I grew up, with/on? Who knows? Still, one knows what one likes, and dislikes, regardless. Oh, and by the way, I totally agree, about "sound people" these days! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Do you mean like this... I find this "thin" tone to be a thing of utter beauty. No...that has a nice "natural" slightly overdriven tone, "thin" as it is, due to the natural sound of his Strat pickup selection. My complaint is not about that kind of tone. It's about what I can only describe as too much processed (amp or pedal) thin, buzzy/fizzy, sounds, that actually "mask" the natural tone, of the guitar (regardless of what type) and/or amp. EC, sometimes has this "problem" with his "booster" circuit (IMHO), when if he'd just leave the booster off, and crank up the amp volume (or guitar volume), it would (and does) sound "heavenly!" But, again...this is just a personal preference, or observation. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I said cut through the mix (as in that particular mix), not cutting tone in general. Things are relative, EC's tone or Peter Green's tone probably would not cut it if they were on stage with Gary Moore. Frankly I prefer a wide varitey of Blues tones from Elmore James to George Thorogood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Well Charlie, a Twin is tubes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Do you mean like this... I find this "thin" tone to be a thing of utter beauty. Might be thicker if he plugged it in...! Seriously, I'm pretty sure he used the legendary Les Paul on the recording of 'Need Your Love So Bad'. I've got to play it on Friday. I've got the notes right but just not possible to get exactly the same tone and touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Well Charlie, a Twin is tubes! Yes, I know this. I have owned one variety, or another, for 48 years. I don't necessarily think it's the amp(s). Maybe sometimes? But, more the pedals/effects, or the way the amps/guitars are set (EQ'd). I've almost decided, it's really more of a personal preference, maybe? Who knows? But, I'm sure I can count on all of you, to help me out, here. With your pearls of wisdom, and vast knowledge, and experience. Sincerely...I'm not being sarcastic, at all (this time, anyway). CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 He's all Mids, all the time. The Lace pickups were awful, that's when I actually stopped even bothering to listen to him. The Hyde Park vid from 95 is good though. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 He's all Mids, all the time. The Lace pickups were awful, that's when I actually stopped even bothering to listen to him. The Hyde Park vid from 95 is good though. rct Yeah, that "Hyde Park" concert DVD IS Awesome! But, this isn't just about EC's (current) tone. Other's as well. Buddy Guy goes that direction, more often than he used to...IMHO. But, it's not even a "Strat" thing, as Buddy Whittington, gets some awesome tones, from his "Strat," and, "Dr. Z" amp combination, on the John Mayall 70th Birthday Celebration DVD. Anyway, I appreciate the input, regardless. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 ...Seriously, I'm pretty sure he used the legendary Les Paul on the recording of 'Need Your Love So Bad'... Oddly enough Farns and I discussed this point when we had a wee blast last month... I really should give it a seriously critical listen. I 'know it so well' I'm not really sure I've actually listened to it for many, many years!..... Partly my problem with NYLSB (from hazy memory) is the studio recording is so schmaltzy and dripping with FX and string-section it's actually quite difficult to discern the real tone of the guitar! Can't stand it. Hate to speak ill of the dead but Gary Moore's version (Blues For Greeny) is even worse. Interminable. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Maybe??? this is what I miss...the sweet sustain, of natural tube overdrive/compression. I remember seeing "The Yardbirds," live...with both Jeff Beck, and Jimmy Page. Neither of them, used the "Fuzz" box (which, if I remember correctly, was a Vox Tone Bender), very much, during the show, except when/where that "violin" type tone, was needed. Think "Over, Under, Sideways, Down," etc. And, the "fuzz" bit, on "Heart Full Of Soul," etc. The rest of the time, they used only their guitar/amp tone, with the amps "Cranked" obviously, but it wasn't an unpleasant volume, at all. Just a very sweet tone, overall...which they adjusted, with the guitar volume and tone controls. They were using Vox AC-100's, into "Beatle" cabinets, at that particular time. So... A lot of those "Classic" tones, were not as deliberately distorted, back then, as some might believe. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Saw EC back in April and he used his pewter strat and sounded fantastic with great tone. Probably was the fine western Pa air though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaleb Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Doesn't sound fizzy to me. Sounds like a small amp though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Farns, Yes...I think you DO know, what I'm referring to. I realize "Fizz" is not a very accurate description, but, that's exactly how it sounds, to me. I think I know what you mean, CB. The word I usually use is splatty. It's a tone that is less rich and a bit more plastic sounding than it should be. (Gotta love these exact terms, right?) It is my opinion that this splatty tone is due to amps being full of printed circuit boards these days and not hand wired point to point like they used to be. Case in point a good friend of mine recently bought a new VOX AC15, and, while it's a nice sounding amp, once we compared it side-by-side to a couple of my hand wired (turret strip) amps he ended up returning the AC15. A second case in point, the reissue Fender Deluxe Reverb sounds pretty nice... until you hear it next to a point to point wired original. The character is different, and well... splatty. All this is just my opinion of course, but it has been borne out by the amps that have generally made the cut in my own herd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 You know what is cool about this thread? That I am going to dig it out next time somebody says tone is in the fingers because I remember some pretty decisive opinions that Eric Clapton would sound like himself no matter what gear he played. Now it turns out nuances make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 But, aren't more "rock star" amps "hand wired" anymore? EC uses his signature "Tweed" Twins, and those are handwired, are they not? As to new amps, of the same model, not sounding like the old (hand wired) versions? I'm sure there is some truth, to that...but, I think too, that "old," well used, well taken care of, and totally broken in, speaker(s), everything has a lot to do with it, as well. New (anything...guitar, amp, drums) sound...well, New! Personally, I feel like most instruments, sound and play much better, after a few years, of fairly regular play. What I guess I'm wondering is: When did "tone" become all this "distortion?" Don't get me wrong, I like "Distortion," and "overdrive," "Fuzz," all of it, in tastful "moderation!" That's what I grew up on, really. It was only used, then, for/as accent, or specific passages, lead of otherwise. Not nearly as constant, as it seems (to me, anyway) it's used, nowadays. I can't blame "Led Zeppelin," or "Deep Purple," because, with some exception, they played fairly "clean" with natural tube overdrive and compression, singing the sustain. I never once saw Richie Blackmore use ANY pedals, when I saw them (3 times) live. Maybe he did so, later? I don't know. Aside from Wah-Wah, I don't remember Page using any pedals, either. Not saying he didn't, or never does, but...if he did, is was sparingly. So...I don't know! Maybe all this distortion, is just the (current/"new") sound, or "rage?" But, it's been around, seemingly, too long, for that. Sigh! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 Saw EC back in April and he used his pewter strat and sounded fantastic with great tone. Probably was the fine western Pa air though. Yeah, cookieman, I've seen him "Live" several times, in different era's, too. He always sounded Great, then. Regardless of what amp, or guitar he was using. So, Anyway, again...this is not about EC, as much as an overall sound/tone perception. Right or Wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have posted that particular video... it's just that it illustrated the particular "sound" that I've become less enamored with. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 But, aren't more "rock star" amps "hand wired" anymore? EC uses his signature "Tweed" Twins, and those are handwired, are they not? As to new amps, of the same model, not sounding like the old (hand wired) versions? I'm sure there is some truth, to that...but, I think too, that "old," well used, well taken care of, and totally broken in, speaker(s), everything has a lot to do with it, as well. New (anything...guitar, amp, drums) sound...well, New! Personally, I feel like most instruments, sound and play much better, after a few years, of fairly regular play. Not really, somebody posted a video of Joe Bonamassa explaining how Clapton rented/borrowed and amp and guitar from a local guitar store when he had a guest appearance on a show. Joe went on to explain how tone was on the fingers, how Clapton sounded like Clapton despite the fact that he was playing on a brand new amp that even had tags on. Frankly I think it is mostly a matter of preference when it comes to tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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