Pin Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The "what song are we learning" thread prompted me to post this thread. I just don't learn songs. I am not sure why. Part of it is "can't be bothered" but that isn't the real story. If I try to learn a song I just end up improvising anyway. And I've always done this...just can't stop it. Other people's "songs" are just springboards for me to "go off on one". Maybe I'm a natural jazz player (blues orientated) without being a jazz player. Now I don't think I'm up to much as a player although I am getting better all the time. I'm not a good reader although I can read of a fashion. I do know lots of chords and I do understand music theory - nothing wrong with the brain even if there is something less good with the fingers. I always practice at least half hour (usually more) every day. Do any of you have a similar approach?
kidblast Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I think with covers, many of us take this approach, where what I mean to say, is that if you are in the ball park, and (when soloing anyway) keeping the basic feel of where the original recording was going, it's really here nor there if you play everything as is. Lets face it, to spend the time doing this, unless it's something special to you, no one (in the listening audience) is ever going to know the difference, unless, you're trying to appease the minority of people in the crowd that are players, and are listening. Most of those guys lurk in the back of the room, don't buy anything at the bar, hang around for 20 minutes, say to themselves. "I can do that" and leave. in short, IMO if you're in a cover band, banging out classic rock tunes, (and you are already a quite capable player and have some chops) there's really no huge VALUE ADD in "nailing" a lead. (Again, unless for some reason,, it just floats your boat and you WANT to do this) if you're doing the "average cover band" routine, I don't think any one has the time to do "note for note" every tune, given the 40/50 songs (or more) that you're gonna run your sets with. On the other hand, there are some songs that don't follow this general thread. If you've ever been interested in following along with some of these acoustic soloist, that use a lot of alternate tunings (not talking about drop D btw) then there's something else. I've been a big fan of some of these guys, and I've been quite inspired by what they have done. These songs, you almost HAVE to do what they are doing, measure by measure. the value here in doing this, is when you get accustomed to these tunings, you can create your own with the things that you can take away from that learning process of course, if you also into classic music,, all bets are off.. I think with this (while off topic) is one example where you sort of have to what is required.
milod Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Well.... Work has kinda hammered me. I recently finished two weekends of benefit gigs, 1 with the 12-string flattop and one with an archtop electric and both ... doing material I've done off and on for 40 years or more. New material... Some is simply rearranging old material with "on the shelf" technique. Some I've simply put on the shelf. Two I wanna get to are "Laura" "Walk on the Wild Side," both from movies... both well-covered, the latter by jazz organist Jimmy Smith. But... time... m
rct Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Going beyond the outline of the song and learning what the guitar player(s) did to make it feel the way it felt when I was 17 or 25 or 40 helps me write better. Like all things, it's the little stuff, the details that make the mood, the scene, the sonic landscape if you will. That little chord hook at the end of the third measure can be exactly what helps the tattooed forearm put down the Bud, turn his NASCAR ball cap around, and finally ask that mega hottie to dance. I like that. Sometimes I spend a weekend with songs I've been playing since they were new, re-learning not only the musical details but the physical aspects of those details. Playing anything is 70% physical and 30% discipline, or something. So I like to go over those things that made me a guitar player in the first place, re-visit them, and then reflect that happiness back into something I'm working on. I also like to watch teevee with a cat and a guitar in my lap, and NAIL those NFL outro to commercial molten metal riffs. I truly SUCK at that. rct
quapman Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Do any of you have a similar approach? You almost summed up my approach to playing guitar pretty much all of my adult life. I did the mel bay reading as a kid but that's it. I quit playing when I was 13 I think. I got back into guitar in my early 20s and sure I learned a few covers getting back into playing. But eventually I just settled in with my jamming buddies. So for a few years we just wrote and played, to ourselves, in a rented space, for our own amusement, knowing full well nobody gave a rats a$$ what we were playing. (except for a few drop in friends liked coming over and listen). Lot's of originals. A few covers of things we liked to listen to. That's pretty much it. We were tight enough to play out but there were a couple guy too chicken sh!t to do it and kept saying we weren't ready. We were ready,, they just weren't interested in it. Well,, that and it was all originals nobody wants to hear. Neither here nor there sorry,, back on topic. In the late 80s I did a brief stint in a band who did play covers with the intent of playing out. I have to say, that doing the covers and having to at least get them close,, really really improved my playing. I'm trying to keep this short,, I could go on and on about this but to cut to the chase, I just recently joined a cover band who I found in a want ad. I was bored with my playing. There is something about playing covers that forces you to play things you wouldn't normally play. That is the part I think is what moves your playing up a notch. I would never dis learning covers or playing them properly, or at least as close as your skill level will allow. You will do rhythms and lead lines that are out of your comfort zone. Fading off into improv is great, but you always follow your comfort zone when you improv(at least I do). Learning covers takes you out of that. And after you learn them,, you have new things to add to your comfort zone which also helps expand your improv zone. I neglected covers for too long. I'm really happy to be in a band now learning covers. I have already added a couple things to my comfort zone and we are only 7 songs in. If it's easy, it's time to move on. Not that I"m a great player. I'm just a hack. But I think it applies to all skill levels.
Hoya Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Playing anything is 70% physical and 30% discipline, or something. rct That's my problem right there. I play everyday because I like it but I don't have the discipline (or maybe the patience) to learn certain solos or runs that I should know because I've heard them so many times. In the back of my mind, I think maybe some day I'll join a cover band and then I'll learn that part.
surfpup Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I'm very impatient with learning songs exactly - especially complicated ones. I will do so if I need to for a band or other performance situation. Otherwise I always end up getting the skeleton of the song together and just making stuff up. In fact the solos in about half of my current band's repertoire are me making stuff up. The others are those that were identifiable enough that I felt the need to get them right(ish).
daveinspain Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 I'm not learning all the songs I haven't learned yet... I'll keep you posted though....
Jimi Mac Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 That about sums it up for me too... Although sometimes I surprise myself. I pretty much improvise everything. I get a basic structure and I play it in the pocket of the mood and feel of the moment and no two solos are ever the same. I don't learn solo's verbatim, I simply make them up from within a scale pattern that matches the key at the moment whatever I feel is what comes out, even if I'm "not feelin' it." I learn as close to the "licks" of my heroes and influences as I can and toss them in whenever I feel them and the feel like they fit to me. I am gratified when I hit one just right and the timing is perfect and I hear it the way I heard it when I just had to learn it... I learn basic outlines of the rhythm of songs I want to hear and I'll hit enough of the licks to pull of some sort of recognizable representation of a song, but that's usually about as close as I come and I prefer to develop a rapport with the crowd at the time of the gig and go off of the energy they feed me (if any) it usually makes it a more personal and intimate sort of communion between the band and the audience and makes for a more "real" shared experience. Some drunk at the bar will invariably shout out; "Freddy King" or "Albert King" or "SRV" etc. So I've learned a few intros and passages that are recognizable to them as at least somewhat close to those personae that they are thinking of, and it usually bridges the connection gap... Remember, the crowd/audience is there to have fun with you and they want you to succeed in helping them have a good time, they want you to succeed in your endeavors as a musician and live performer, they are your support network and you have to openly communicate with them and it will be very mutually beneficial in a live setting. They are not there to judge you or how well you play or how perfectly you complete a passage or how exactly you reproduce a song to the original, they aren't your judges or your enemy, they are your partner and friend in the shared communion... So you can often screw up as badly as you ever had and either they won't even seem to notice or if the did, they just don't care because they are there to have a good time, which feeds off your energy of having a good time and it turns into a positive catch-22 and you feed into and off of each others "good time." I'm a hack, and my fingers won't always do what I want them to. I modify and abbreviate alot. If my hands just won't make key changes or transitions I find a way to modify or abbreviate the propriety so that I can cover the bad spots and accentuate the good... The more pieces in the band the easier that is to accomplish. As for practicing I don't have alot of time. My work keeps me busy, stressed, and exhausted most of the time and sometimes I'll go 3 weeks without picking up a guitar, but when I do it invariably turns into several hours because I just don't want to put it down... I do however, when I do find the opportunity to make the time, surprise myself at how well I can learn a song if I put my mind to it, even if I can't read music and I have to do it the hard way with a little bit of tabs, make my own notations, and put it on my iPod and play it back and keep working at it bit by bit until I can put most of the parts together for myself. I've learned songs I would have thought I'd have no chance to accomplish when I really wanted to do it...
Marshall Paul Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 That's my problem right there. I play everyday because I like it but I don't have the discipline (or maybe the patience) to learn certain solos or runs that I should know because I've heard them so many times. In the back of my mind, I think maybe some day I'll join a cover band and then I'll learn that part. If your really interesred, here's the trick to learning the riffs and solo's in a song. What you do is just listen over and over to a favourite song you want to nail until you can mentaly split it up into three, four, maybe five parts and then you just learn the induvidual parts until you've got it. Then you start putting all the parts back together. Before you know it, you're playing the entire song pat perfect. This is how professional session muso's do it so it does work, believe me. And playing that way, in the end, does expand not only your technique but your tonal palette as well. And totaly unrelated...excellent sentiment SurfPup. But, thank God they did take up golf, otherwise our line-up would be completely out of control crowded, forcing me ever further onto more unpopulated indo islands!
rocketman Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Most times I take great pains to learn every song down to the note. I did this with Alex Lifeson, although sometimes I add my flavor into it. Other times I just play along with a backing track to improve my improv skills. Been doing that a lot lately.
Pin Posted November 10, 2014 Author Posted November 10, 2014 Most times I take great pains to learn every song down to the note. I did this with Alex Lifeson, although sometimes I add my flavor into it. Other times I just play along with a backing track to improve my improv skills. Been doing that a lot lately. In a nutshell that's where I am except no matter how I try I just do not have the mindset / patience to sit down and learn the note for note stuff. For those of you that do you have my greatest admiration.
zigzag Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Most times I take great pains to learn every song down to the note... Other times I just play along with a backing track to improve my improv skills... Having perfect pitch must make this easier for you than for most people. I had an instructor who is also very good at transcribing (does it for a living), and he hears notes that I don't... amazing. I think if you are going to learn a piece of music, you should learn every note; makes you a better player. But that's just me. I also think that you develop your own chops and your own sound by noodling over backing tracks/loops. I've heard you play, rocketman, and I don't think you even know how good you are.
ErickC Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 I spend a majority of my guitar playing time writing music, and playing music that I write, but I like to learn other people's songs because it helps me understand their playing and songwriting styles to a degree. I figure there might be answers to problems hidden in someone else's point-of-view.
Marshall Paul Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 The "what song are we learning" thread prompted me to post this thread. I just don't learn songs. I am not sure why. Part of it is "can't be bothered" but that isn't the real story. If I try to learn a song I just end up improvising anyway. And I've always done this...just can't stop it. Other people's "songs" are just springboards for me to "go off on one". Maybe I'm a natural jazz player (blues orientated) without being a jazz player. Now I don't think I'm up to much as a player although I am getting better all the time. I'm not a good reader although I can read of a fashion. I do know lots of chords and I do understand music theory - nothing wrong with the brain even if there is something less good with the fingers. I always practice at least half hour (usually more) every day. Do any of you have a similar approach? There's always different approaches to this particular issue Pin. You can either learn it rote (note for note), or partly with some of your own improvs injected into it, or you can simply flow with it and do your own thing. All perfectly acceptable. But here is a sample of what some of the greats have done in the past. Clapton (GOD to those of you too young to know!). He once stated in an interview many years ago (when he was still with Blind Faith) that what he does when he's comming up with a solo is he remembers the solo's he learnt rote, and he pulls them apart and uses a bit from one, and then adds part of another one and so forth until he has a complete solo. Go back and listen to some of his earlier stuff and you really can hear bits of other peoples work. Don "Fingers" Felder (ex Eagles, Hotel California fame). What Don mostly does when he solo's is he 'works within the rythmn guitarist's chords'. What this means is this. Say for instance, the song is in the key of Amajor. Flick forward to say the chorus and the rythmn guitarist is banging away in D and your doing the solo. Work your solo notes within that D chord while it's being played. Then say he slides it back to A. Follow him with your solo notes back into A. Work within the chord being played. Hence, the very distinctive Eagles sound! Go to something like U-Tube and just watch and listen how Don and Joe used to work off against, and with each other. It was poetry in motion. Better still, listen to Don's latest album, you can very much hear this approach. Hope this helps some.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.