Is it just ME....or

[Dub-T-123]

Well, no. Professional construction workers USED to use Craftsman. I knew many that had a Sears credit card, right along with their union card. Emergencies, you know.

 

This, was SLIGHTLY before cordless stuff. But the first Craftsman cordless stuff was made by Black and Decker. And Black and Decker USED to be Dewalt. Or rather, the Dewalt name bought out the Black and Decker professional line of tools.

 

Sears didn't build tools. The Craftman tools used to be built by the American makers of tools, and they had professional lines. So, the reason that old Craftsman table saw works better than the rigid, is it was likely built by Delta or Rockwell, and was the same as those makers professional line of tools.

 

That isn't to sat they didn't have consumer grade stuff as well. But they DID have professional stuff.

 

I guess another way to put it, you wouldn't find Makita or Bosch in Craftsman, because they weren't American. "Craftsman" USED to mean 1) lifetime guareentee, 2) made in USA. The professional grade stuff was the same tools from American tool makers, and cost a bit more because of the lifetime deal.

I'll tell ya what, we're on the same page on everything here except all the "young folks don't know the difference" and general "damn whippersnappers" attitude.

 

I guess you could say that any blanket generalization like that is ignorant by default. I'm sure (or I hope) that you don't actually believe that as absolute fact, though it has an element of truth.

 

By the way, I'm 23, so one of the younger members here. If us whippersnappers couldn't tell the difference I wouldn't be here, cause I would have bought some shitty Gibson copy at Kmart instead. Your comment just struck me as being pretty out of touch with reality. I hope I didn't offend you with my reaction

[stein]

Obviously this isn't true, but if it were, it would be a pretty good argument to suggest that maybe we don't know the difference because your generation planned it that way.

 

Which generation do you think is responsible for the outsourcing in the first place? Do you think I went back in time and made that happen? Probably not

 

 

 

but a new makita cordless drill beats the old craftsman for sure.

Oh, might add, I used an early nineties Makita today...reason being, it STILL WORKS. The "new" Makita I didn't use (but do often) is the second one in 3 years. But it still doesn't work quite as well for what I was doing today.

 

Now, I wasn't BLAMING the younger generation for the current state at all, and you are right on the money: it IS the older generation that is responsible for the current state.

 

What I would want to say, and what I want others younger to see, is we know how we got here. Higher corporate taxes and more taxes for businesses, along with stricter environmental laws while ALLOWING imports with no environmental restrictions is what causes business to do what business does: go where more profit can be made.

[stein]

I'll tell ya what, we're on the same page on everything here except all the "young folks don't know the difference" and general "damn whippersnappers" attitude.

 

I guess you could say that any blanket generalization like that is ignorant by default. I'm sure (or I hope) that you don't actually believe that as absolute fact, though it has an element of truth.

 

By the way, I'm 23, so one of the younger members here. If us whippersnappers couldn't tell the difference I wouldn't be here, cause I would have bought some shitty Gibson copy at Kmart instead. Your comment just struck me as being pretty out of touch with reality. I hope I didn't offend you with my reaction

Just types a responce below before I saw this.

 

Gotta say, you misjudge my opinion of you. There ain't no "damn whippersnapper" thought about you and your generation at all. And I believe, from what little I know from you here, that you don't fit that profile like many that do.

 

Oh, wait, be right back. Gotta kick some kids off my lawn.

[Dub-T-123]

Just types a responce below before I saw this.

 

Gotta say, you misjudge my opinion of you. There ain't no "damn whippersnapper" thought about you and your generation at all. And I believe, from what little I know from you here, that you don't fit that profile like many that do.

 

Oh, wait, be right back. Gotta kick some kids off my lawn.

lol

 

Ok, sorry I overreacted to the "younger generation doesn't know the difference"

 

Also it's funny you say that you've broken the makitas too. I've broken a couple now, and the motor actually caught on fire on one while I was using it. The technology has come a long way, but the cheap manufacturing produces a lot of duds.. And even the normal products could be way better quality if the manufacturer would put in the cost. But then it would cost too much to sell in Home Depot or wherever..

 

I've never actually ponied up for the festool stuff but they make nice tools. For wrenches and whatnot you've got snap on. It's all still there man. Just not at sears anymore.

[merciful-evans]

I've dealt with outsourcing manufacturing to China. One thing to note, the Chinese can make perfectly good stuff, or they can make very cheap stuff, they can't do both and they make stuff to the price point they're told too.

 

I too, have similar experience re: China and can confirm just exactly what you've said.

 

 

As for guitars, I use:

 

English

American

Chinese

Japanese

Korean

Spanish

 

The order is random.

All I will say is the build quality is not necessarily reflected by the price of any of these models.

[Murph]

Porter Cable built Rockwell tools years ago in Jackson Tn.

 

They got their name back, lost it again to Black and Decker, and moved to China.

 

Weird.

[stein]

Porter Cable built Rockwell tools years ago in Jackson Tn.

 

They got their name back, lost it again to Black and Decker, and moved to China.

 

Weird.

Yea, it gets confusing.

 

Delta is now a "consumer" brand, and I forget who owns the name now. Delta USED to be an industrial line, so they are completely different, the name, that is.

 

As I remember, Rockwell and Porter Cable used to be the same company, and what used to be branded Rockwell became branded Porter Cable, and Rockwell became the badge for industrial equipment. I can't remember, but Rockwell became Delta?

 

I seem to remember Black and Decker SELLING to Dewalt, or something like that, when the Black and Decker "professional" line being re-badged as Dewalt. In any case, it's pretty easy to remember that Dewalt is literally what used to be Black and Decker professional.

 

I think what's also significant, for those that care, is both Porter Cable and Dewalt are made in Mexico. I'm not sure when/if the change in quality came about, but Porter cable used to be the top router. I know at least one guy with multiple routers, and the newer Porter cable doesn't work as good as the old one. When it comes to routers and laminate trimmers, it DOES make a difference. I have an old Rockwell router I use that's the same as a Porter Cable "chrome dome" so I can relate.

 

Milwaulkee is now almost entirely China, and the parts for the American tools are no longer stocked or made.

 

Truthfully, I don't know what or where to get tools anymore that are up to snuff with the stuff I have. I used to get newer stuff more often, but end up giving them away to other workers or throwing them out when they go because they just don't work as well.

[Dub-T-123]

I have a couple porter cable routers and I have to agree, the old one is noticably better. Wish they still made them like that. The flat top on the new ones is a little more convenient because you can use it to stand the router up but other than that the old ones have it beat..

 

The biggest problem I encounter with the newer porter cable routers is the power switch. Eventually they break and you'll be using the router and then the motor will cut out, and a couple seconds later the motor may kick back on if you don't switch the power off or unplug it. Obviously that is super dangerous, so it's a shame that they don't make these things more reliable. I'm sure plenty of people have gotten hurt. I've seen some pretty serious injuries from the router, definitely a tool that you don't play around with..

[Retired]

It's not just China and its not just the last 10 years. When I was at UNO the professor told the class the first Iron made had one steam hole in it. Then someone got an idea that if they drilled two more holes in the iron it would sell like pancakes. So they did and were right. The one hole irons were outsold. Problem was, the new one only had one steam hole in it also. The other two holes were dummy holes. It was the exact same iron as the first, but sold at a higher price. Welcome to big business, designing and manufacturing. I learned a long time ago though you get what you pay for. So I try not to buy the cheapest junk, and not the most expensive, about mid range, unless you can afford the high quality. I am happy with my Indonessia $400.00 Epiphone so far though. It's been great.

[IanHenry]

Thank goodness you can still rely on Gibson despite the odd wacky idea!

 

 

Ian

[Pin]

The Chinese are very capable of making anything to any quality at any price point.

 

The reason why so many goods from there are shoddy is the fault of the commissioners who themselves are led by a public who want "cheap".

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

Build with quality and sell it, and the customer who buy's it won't be spending his money for a long time.

 

Build and sell crap, and that customer will have to spend money every few month's.

 

What's better buisiness, selling a product once and forget that customer for 10 years, or selling crap and cashing in every 3 or 4 month's?

 

And then there is the low price factor, most peeps like to buy as cheap as they can.

 

It has an educational part too I think. When my parents gave me a toy I'll better cared and kept it in good condition, because once it broke or got lost there wasn't another one for a long time.

 

But in this society it's: buy, use throw away, buy!

 

I think it doesn't matter where something is built, far more important is how it is built.

 

There is still good quality stuff out there (even made in PRC), you only have to search it.

[retrorod]

Truth be told, any Fender amp (any amp, for that matter) that's 30 or 40 years old needs a rebuild anyway. And if it has been used, it's likely been done over at least once, if not multiple times.

 

Good caps, good tubes. That goes for ANY amp, cheap or not. Just makes more difference on a better amp.

 

I know I keep saying "Victoria", but I don't know who all is in business, and I don't remember half of them. I can't even think of another besides Carr at the moment.

 

They ain't THAT much money.

 

Thanks for everyones input, and comments. I see that I am not alone in my observation.

 

Yes, certainly there are some 'quality' builds for sale. They are not available to touch ,feel and play in most towns. You want to spend 2-3K over the net....go ahead. I still say that 'vintage' 50's-70's amps are the 'best buys' on the planet.

 

I do amp repair as a side hustle. I currently own a half dozen vintage amps (Fender, Gibson) and have owned numerous other tube amps (Boogie,Silvertone, Ampeg, Acoustic) . I can attest to the superiority of build quality and reliability of these 40-60 year old amps compared to the numbers of 5-10 year old 'not worth the price of repair amps' that have crossed my humble bench.

 

Yes, people want cheap. Cheap is what is offered in 99% of music stores. Cheap= NO GOOD!......unless you want to spend your money every 3-5 years.

 

I have built a few amps...it is not cheap when you clone a vintage amp. For example, a clone of a Fender Tweed F51 Champ (the smallest , most basic Fender combo) would cost me almost $500 for parts,cab,chassis,transformers,tubes,and speaker...complete. This does not included my labor. I have no problem with that. I know that it will last much longer than cheap-*** builds from China and Behringer City.

[Dub-T-123]

Thanks for everyones input, and comments. I see that I am not alone in my observation.

 

Yes, certainly there are some 'quality' builds for sale. They are not available to touch ,feel and play in most towns. You want to spend 2-3K over the net....go ahead. I still say that 'vintage' 50's-70's amps are the 'best buys' on the planet.

 

I do amp repair as a side hustle. I currently own a half dozen vintage amps (Fender, Gibson) and have owned numerous other tube amps (Boogie,Silvertone, Ampeg, Acoustic) . I can attest to the superiority of build quality and reliability of these 40-60 year old amps compared to the numbers of 5-10 year old 'not worth the price of repair amps' that have crossed my humble bench.

 

Yes, people want cheap. Cheap is what is offered in 99% of music stores. Cheap= NO GOOD!......unless you want to spend your money every 3-5 years.

 

I have built a few amps...it is not cheap when you clone a vintage amp. For example, a clone of a Fender Tweed F51 Champ (the smallest , most basic Fender combo) would cost me almost $500 for parts,cab,chassis,transformers,tubes,and speaker...complete. This does not included my labor. I have no problem with that. I know that it will last much longer than cheap-*** builds from China and Behringer City.

I for one would be interested in seeing your amp collection! (vintage and/or DIY)

 

The quality of the tubes in those old fenders was definitely better than what you get now. The transformers and speakers sounded great. The construction style was easier to repair and mod..

 

But they weren't perfect either! Fender took shortcuts on grounding that resulted in ground loops and higher impedance than you'd want ideally. Obviously resulting in unnecessary excess noise.

 

I think some modern amp builders are more careful in their grounding schemes resulting in a superior noise performance, but nobody can deny those old fenders sounded GREAT