albertjohn Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 In the UK we've seen the US$ weaken and recently strengthen against £ so that currently prices are tending to increase. I'd seen a SWD (pre change of model names) for about £1,100 6 months ago. The same guitar is now retails for £1,450+ but 12 months ago it might have been about £1,700. New Gibsons are never going to go down in price. There may be special runs for particular retailers which are good deals but other than that I don't think so. Also remember that if the new retail price of "stock" guitars goes down, the used value of those that we own is also bound to reduce. On a wider note - times are hard but the last thing we all want are deflationary economies. A bargain is one thing but generally decreasing prices is quite another - none of us want to be there! There will always be people with money in a recession. For those who buy guitars from "capital" a price rise will have little effect. For those who buy from "income" (like all of us probably) it's more of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GottaBeGibson Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Fender did their annual price bump recently too. They all do it. And they'll all do it again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vourot Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The guitars are worth whatever people will pay for them whatever the brand. I'm repeating but its true for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Gibson is in line with other major builders with their prices. To think that you could go to a smaller builder and buy one of their guitars cheaper is a pipe dream. The quality may be better' date=' but it won't be cheaper. Also, what makes you think that smaller builders don't also raise their prices to keep in line with other builders??? Also, as far as the "buy used" theory, don't you think used prices will also go up? Most people base their used pricing on a percentage of the price for a similar new model. They don't base it on what they actually paid for it years ago. If the new models increase in price, seems to me the used prices will soon follow. Then you're back to the basic decision of whether you buy used and take a chance or spend a bit more for a new one with a full warranty. I don't like it anymore than anyone else does, but the fact is, most builders have price increases. Gibson acoustic can only make approximately 65 acoustics each working day. If they don't raise their prices to keep in line with everyone else, people would create much more of a demand than they can now fill. It doesn't make good business sense to keep their prices below everyone else, when they can increase the price and still sell all of the guitars they produce. They usually raise their prices every year and people always complain about it. Fact is, they still sell everything they produce. There will always be buyers at whatever cost. They may not be the buyers who can only afford to own one or two guitars. But there will be buyers. [/quote'] Used prices have dropped like a rock in the past months!! You can easily find a j-45 for 1,000---1,200 The guitar companies can do as they please, & I wish them well, but I'm out!! I wish I could afford their prices, but, I can't!! The SJ-200 I bought new in 2001, is now more than a grand, higher than what mine cost. I don't know about you, but I'm making less money, not more!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peiplayer Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Prices of everything have gone up dramatically in Canada in the last year supposedly because of rising gas and oil prices. Now that the price of oil has fallen fast and far, have the prices of everything else fallen? Of course not. We’re now told that previous increases really had nothing to do with the price of oil, or that stocks had been bought far in advance because of the high oil price and it will take about a year for prices to eventually come down….yeah right. How much of these price increases go to the employees? Zero. Gibson is no different than anyone else. Raise the price 20% – 50% and chuckle at the outcry because they know we’ll pay it. I’m sure Martin and Taylor and others are exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeebee Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I wouldnt be suprised if Gibson is trying to make up for falling demand by increasing margins on each instrument. I cant believe costs are up and I do believe sales are down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Considering houses are selling for 1/2 as much as they were a year ago, cars aren't selling at all!!!!!!!! At least that's the case where I live. My priority, is my mortgage payment. I have to agree with you Zeebee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 My initial thought would be to agree, however I was just talking with my local dealer last week about this. He said that his store sales were up 10% over the previous year and the high end guitars are selling better than ever. He said that the low end guitar sales is what's dropping off at his store because those are the people who don't have money right now to buy anything. However, people with money still have money and can still afford to buy the higher end guitars. In general, he believes the music industry is doing OK right now. People need to find things to occupy them at home and musical instruments do that. After your initial investment the music is then free. He's also talked with representatives from Martin, Collings, Taylor and Gibson and he doesn't see any evidence that any are hurting a great deal right now. He also mentioned that the musical instrument industry did very well, compared to other businesses during the Great Depression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Prediction:.....Six months from now.....we will see "Special Pricing" from MF, "Employee Pricing", all sorts of gimmics where the price for a new Gibson will drastically drop (to the price it was before the increase) and some buyer is going to think....hey, that's a really good deal.....You just gotta love those guys from the marketing department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 YES OWF ! There was a big article about a Franchise Electronics Store going bankrupt ...Circuit City. So they have to liquidate everything the company owns and advertise "Liquidation Sale" ....."Everything must go"......yada yada..... Turns out they were taking Full Retail pricing and "discounting" it 10 or 20 or 30 percent. But if you do a little shopping around I guess Best Buy's prices still were lower than what these Liquidation Sale prices ended up. The hope is stupid people will run in and buy with out doing the research and think they are getting a great deal. As OWF is saying .....if Gibson needs to move inventory they will offer a "Sale Price" and take some percentage off which will end up still being a few bones more than you would have paid last year, but the buyer will be thinking he got a sweet deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Things are tough all over I guess, even for mighty Gibson: Another one bites the dust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Not to beat a dead horse, but don't you think that Gibson's costs also increase (cost for materials, shipping costs, energy costs, transportation, etc.)? Don't the employees that make our acoustic guitars deserve competitive wages to keep up with the economy? Gibson raised their prices between 2005 and 2006 less than 10%. They didn't increase their prices in 2007 or 2008. And now, in 2009 they are again increasing their prices approximately 10%. I really don't see how a 10% increase in three years is too unreasonable, considering how their costs have probably increased much more than that, just like everyone else's have. I believe that Gibson has demonstrated that they have really tried to keep their prices down as much as possible, considering the way that everything else has increased. When they are forced to raise their prices because of market conditions, it's important to also look at what other manufacturers have done. Everyone's raising their prices. It's not some evil plot by all the manufacturers, it's a means to try to survive. There's no bail-out plan for the music industry. They have to try to survive with what they have and unfortunately, that means raising prices to meet their increased costs. Anyone who has actually visited the Gibson acoustic facility in Bozeman knows that it's not a high tech, state of the art facility with employees who are living extravagant lifestyles. They're just trying to make it in this economy, just like the rest of us are. I don't like paying more money for anything either. But it's a fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbg63 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Not to quote every word that Mike (guitarstrummer) has mentioned in this thread but Gibson prices have risen just like everything else, but less than some items. If you do the math cost/percentage, Gibson prices haven't risen percentage wise as much as other luxury / entertainment items. Basically the only prices that really lower over time are electronics...remember the $300. DVD, microwave, VCR etc. Once everyone gets into these markets supply is over demand, the prices drop as they are manufactured cheaper. Check it out, you can see this in the lower end guitar, drum, bass and keyboard markets. The cost of materials...i.e. specialty woods, enamels, labor, insurance and everything else that goes into making a product such as utilities, if you haven't noticed lately, has gone up in price. Used prices are never far behind the price of new. Normally on most items it is anywhere from %65 to %80 the cost of new. The reason for this is as new prices rise, people look for used or almost new to compensate for it. This doesn't change over-night but used prices will rise. As we see the market for used items increased...used prices rise .....Economics 101. I personally am planning on buying a new acoustic this year, when I am not sure, but I will buy Gibson because I know what I am paying for. As far as being ripped-off by overpricing, If you buy either a $2300. Gibson or a $5.00 bottle of beer at a ball game...(which = $30.00 a six-pack) You did not get ripped off, because you paid for it. It's the quality of the item (people that want them will buy them or it is the conveinance of being able to buy a beer and watch a ball game. Again if you buy it you are not getting ripped off. If you don't buy it because of the price someone else will. Gibson prices as Mike mentioned were raised 10% since 2006 if I read that correctly...I wish everything else I purchase has only risen that much...... I am waiting to see where my 2-cents worth goes from here...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The thing is.....that with oil at under $40 per barrel, transportation, shipping, energy, has all dropped!!!! The economic downturn, less jobs, less disposable income has in fact lowered the demand for guitars IN GENERAL. This will eventually work it 's way down to lower costs for materials as supply remains steady, and demand for tone woods, etc, goes down. Price of steel is down, price of nickle is down, price of frets is sure to follow. Well....let's see, no one really knows....so let's see/. By the way, Mike, you still getting that Pete Townsend 200 with the 600 buck increase??? That should cover some of Gibson's costs......Who knows, maybe Pete Townsend is demanding 600 dollars more for that signature..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I, for one, am not saying Gibson is ripping anybody off!! I'm saying, I can't afford them anymore. I do not agree that the price of used will rise. The used price has come down quite a bit. I watch ebay the local papers, ect...I see people who are asking the same price as before, not being able to sell their stuff. If one person is asking 1200, for the same guitar someone else is asking 1500 for, which one are you gonna buy? I'm seeing Epiphone EF500R's going for 350---380. These are over 800 new!! I think the used market is very good for buyer's, not very good for seller's. I can't afford a new guitar, & I'm not willing to take such a loss on a guitar that I already own. Good news is, I'm happy with what I've got. I certainly have no ill-regard for Gibson, or any other guitar company. We all have to do what we, have to do. I hope Gibson survives for another 1,000 years..............I'm just saying,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumps Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 .... Gibsons still seem to be a great value. it's hard to compare guitars, but here's a few things I was able to gather up: Through Musiciansfriend.com (because they have a large selection and their prices are considered "normal" - not great) I looked up some numbers, using the website's sale price, NOT the MSRP Gibson has 26 guitars that are the Bozeman made guitars - I didn't include the Songmaker and the CSR/DSR made in Canada The price range is $1850 for an SJ-100 to $4600 for the Pete Townshend The AVERAGE price for Gibson is $2600 Taylor had 55 guitars in a similar quality range, I looked at everything from the 310 series and UP. The price range was $1550 to $4200. I DID NOT include the two two guitars at about $10K each. The AVERAGE price for Taylor is $3130 In addition, Gibson had 12 guitars to offer in the $2000-$2500 range, Taylor only had 2. Gibson had 6 in the $2500 - $3000 range, Taylor had 13 Gibson had 5 guitars in the $3000 - $4000 range, Taylor had 13 Gibson had only 1 guitar above $4000, Taylor had 10. Gibson may be raising their prices, but they seem to not only be in line with their competition, but still be a good value. And this is just my opinion, but if I was going to spend $4000, I'd rather have bought my Songwriter than the Taylors I tried, so I think for the money you get a well made guitar (of course if I had $4000 to spend I'd have certainly tried some other models) (and yes, I'm wasting time at work - slow afternoon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I was saving up for a new Garrison. Oh wait, never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The thing is.....that with oil at under $40 per barrel' date=' transportation, shipping, energy, has all dropped!!!! The economic downturn, less jobs, less disposable income has in fact lowered the demand for guitars IN GENERAL. This will eventually work it 's way down to lower costs for materials as supply remains steady, and demand for tone woods, etc, goes down. Price of steel is down, price of nickle is down, price of frets is sure to follow. Well....let's see, no one really knows....so let's see/. By the way, Mike, you still getting that Pete Townsend 200 with the 600 buck increase??? That should cover some of Gibson's costs......Who knows, maybe Pete Townsend is demanding 600 dollars more for that signature.....[/quote'] The price for a barrel of oil may be down, but transportation costs, shipping costs and energy costs sure aren't down from where they were three years ago. And no, I'm not buying that Pete Townsend 200, but not for cost reasons. He smashes guitars and I wouldn't ever buy his signature model because of that. I do have several others in mind, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I rant probably more than anyone about Gibson's prices. Sad truth is though, when I meet a Gibson with which I fall in love, I buy it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Economics 101. This mention of Economics 101 reminded me of a bit that Don Novello, as Fr. Guido Sarducci, did on SNL. The idea was that, after you've been out of college for a little while, all you remember is one thing from each course. So he proposed to just teach you that one thing, and thereby save you a lot of time and effort. For example, instead of taking an entire course in Spanish, you'd just learn "¿Como esta usted? Muy bien, gracias." because that's the only thing you'd remember from taking Spanish anyway. Similarly, he'd teach you the only thing that you'd remember from Econ 101, how prices are determined: supply and demand. (And he must have been right, because the audience said it right along with him.) Seems like some of the participants in this discussion must have missed out on Econ 101. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Player Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Excellent point Stumps! I bet Martin is somewhere between Gibson and Taylor..(Just a gut feeling and I am too lazy/busy to check it out). Truth be told, I believe you get what you pay for in an acoustic guitar. The big 3 will likely charge a premium for name recognition, but I am OK with that because I do believe that also would transfer over in the used market if one were selling. I won't sell any of the 3 acoustics I own because each serves it's purpose in my playing styles. I still would rather have Taylor or Gibson on the headstock if times get tough and I need to turn one to pay bills. Hopefully that doesn't happen as I can't imagine which would go first but my guess it would have Taylor on the headstock if I were to sell one since I only have the one Gibson and have bonded quite nicely with it. I still think a good Gibson is worth it's weight in gold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 New Gibsons are still very good value and the used market is exceptionally good now for buyers, with the economic slump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsc Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I know in the tough economic times I also turn to Fr. Guido Sarducci. I mean with people losing their homes, & jobs, by the thousands, which guitar I'm going to buy, is definitely, my #1 concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosewoody Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 davidbg63 said"The cost of materials...i.e. specialty woods, enamels, labor, insurance and everything else that goes into making a product such as utilities, if you haven't noticed lately, has gone up in price. Used prices are never far behind the price of new. ...used prices rise .....Economics 101. " This is right, and so are rar's comments. It is all about Econ 101, supply and demand. No one is forcing anyone to buy a new Gibson. Gibson, like any rational business entity, charges what the market bears. If they make a profit, they prosper. If the profit is inadequate, there is no money for reinvestment, capital improvements, r&d, attractive wages, benefits, marketing, sales, customer support.......and the company withers and dies. Gibson is not a monopoly--they have to manage costs and gauge customer demand. If they price too high, they will adjust. It isn't as if Gibson doesn't have plenty of competition; rather more now than ever! And used prices will trail new, since good second hand guitars don't generally depreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgTime Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Dude, yeah, the sg's have gone up a good 300-400 dollars, and whats worse is that 4 years ago they were 600 dollars cheaper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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