The inexorable MSRP creep…are new Gibsons now priced out of the reach of working musicians?

[MorrisrownSal]

JT… feel better brother. You are the pinnacle of this forum.

[Boyd]

4 hours ago, jt said:

So much ugliness in a thread about a simple question: has Gibson's MSRP increased faster than the rate of inflation. Sigh.

The question comes from someone in the UK, so it's not just inflation, you need to consider the exchange rate. As I posted before any "ugliness", the pound has dropped by 14% relative to the dollar during the past 12 months. That must be a major factor.

[RvrDxn]

6 hours ago, jt said:

So much ugliness in a thread about a simple question: has Gibson's MSRP increased faster than the rate of inflation. Sigh.

I know. Gosh, this place sure is going downhill. People offering up opinions, speaking freely . . . It really is too much for me. And I haven’t even finished setting up my cry closet yet.

[dhanners623]

3 hours ago, RvrDxn said:

I know. Gosh, this place sure is going downhill. People offering up opinions, speaking freely . . . It really is too much for me. And I haven’t even finished setting up my cry closet yet.

In a thread dealing with a straightforward topic — are Gibson’s MSRPs outpacing the rate of inflation, and what does it mean for working musicians? — you’ve posted six comments. None deal even remotely with the topic.

That’s trolling.

Edited July 16, 2022 by dhanners623

[Sgt. Pepper]

6 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

In a thread dealing with a straightforward topic — are Gibson’s MSRPs outpacing the rate of inflation, and what does it mean for working musicians? — you’ve posted six comments. None deal even remotely with the topic.

That’s trolling.

It sure has and we all know Gibson, and other makers prices are all going up and up. Its just how it is. The J-45 Standard is $2849 for a hog back and sides guitar. Martin's D-18 made of hog back and sides is $2799. So not much of a difference. I guess out of reach depends on the working musician and how well off he or she is. 

[fortyearspickn]

Dhan -  you're right, of course.  What starts out as one, simple, humorous, ironic, sarcastic comment can quickly grow into trolling from several sides at once.  And if  someone throws a political comment in -  it's a free for all !  So we need to agree to tip-toe around politics when talking about inflation.    That said ... 

I see this as a 2 part question:   Are Gibson's price increases higher than inflation? and,  is Gibson pricing their guitars out of reach of most working musicians?  Many here have touched on pieces of the answers.  Even Sgt.Pepper with his  "Yes" and then "No". (Probably the best answer.)

"Official Retail Inflation"  (the Consumer Price Index)  in the US has been increasing each month this year. It  jumped by 9.1% in June and 8.6% in May.     Few people are seeing their paychecks go up 9% this year compared to last year, so few people are able to buy as much as they could a year ago.     This leads us to consider costs - always the starting point for setting prices:   how much have Bozeman's costs gone up?    We all know specialized wood is going up.  I saw plywood prices at Lowes last week - WOW !     I'm guessing skilled labor costs in MT are probably going up faster than the average US labor rate.   So, it is likely that the average cost increases for Bozeman are greater than 'average'.  So, it's probably safe to conclude prices on Gibson Acoustics have gone up at least to keep pace with inflation over the past few years.  Or they'd be operating at a loss!  

The second part of the question - affordability to a Full-time, professional, career Musician.  If we just consider USD on Gibsion's site - and hold  aside the differences in exchange rates, which is real. and possible increases in sales tax, retailers markups, etc.  the question is answered by asking the question differently.  Have inflationary pressures  on gas, food, utilities, housing, etc. ,  caused people to have less 'disposable income' for entertainment?  Is proportionality less money being spent on 'music' ?    In the past 2 years, we've heard many anecdotes here that would suggest that to be the case:  that there are fewer better paying opportunities and that probably translates to lower pay rates.    

So, in today's  economy, US or International, can a Working Musician afford a brand new SJ-200?   Probably not without dipping into savings (hope the roof doesn't spring a leak) or financing it.  But no  one is at fault here.    Can a working circuit race car driver, aspiring to break into NASCAR,   get a competitive Chevy or Ford?  Not without sponsors.   Can aspiring sculptors afford high grade marble?  Not without sponsors.    Can a portrait artist afford new canvases, or does he have to paint over last years unsold portrait?   Can a house painter afford scaffolding?    Capitalism - it isn't fair, but it's better than the alternative.   

 

[RvrDxn]

8 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

In a thread dealing with a straightforward topic — are Gibson’s MSRPs outpacing the rate of inflation, and what does it mean for working musicians? — you’ve posted six comments. None deal even remotely with the topic.

That’s trolling.

Let’s see . . . Yes, the price of Gibson as well as other US manufacturers of guitars are ridiculously overpriced. At the same time, just because someone is a “working” musician does not entitle them to be able to afford any guitar that they want.

Are you feeling better now? That was the virtual equivalent of me giving you a hug. Do you need another?

[Larsongs]

I hope Gibson isn’t building Acoustic Guitars from new Wood they bought last month!

Seriously, most Acoustics are built from Wood bought quite a while ago.. It’s usually stored for some time before using to build Acoustic Guitars.. That said, it doesn’t mean Guitars should be priced at what Wood cost at that time. Or any time..

I don’t know of a single Price on anything today that hasn’t gone up exponentially… It seems to trace back to the Pandemic Lockdown & shutting down American Oil Production. When that happened prices went crazy.. The latter being a Man made Problem that didn’t have to happen…

Prices for Guitars are crazy but so is $7.00+ a gallon for Gas (in Calif) in my neighborhood… 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Larsongs

[Boyd]

There was a discussion of Gibson price increases here last October...

 

[QuestionMark]

3 hours ago, Larsongs said:

I hope Gibson isn’t building Acoustic Guitars from new Wood they bought last month!

Seriously, most Acoustics are built from Wood bought quite a while ago.. It’s usually stored for some time before using to build Acoustic Guitars.. That said, it doesn’t mean Guitars should be priced at what Wood cost at that time. Or any time..

I don’t know of a single Price on anything today that hasn’t gone up exponentially… It seems to trace back to the Pandemic Lockdown & shutting down American Oil Production. When that happened prices went crazy.. The latter being a Man made Problem that didn’t have to happen…

Prices for Guitars are crazy but so is $7.00+ a gallon for Gas (in Calif) in my neighborhood… 

I think it’s pretty clear that the crazy Russian dictator who invaded Ukraine for the crazy reason he did is the cause of the gas inflation and the overall inflation we’re having now.   When he invaded Ukraine the economic experts said this would happen. 
 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

[Larsongs]

40 minutes ago, QuestionMark said:

I think it’s pretty clear that the crazy Russian dictator who invaded Ukraine for the crazy reason he did is the cause of the gas inflation and the overall inflation we’re having now.   When he invaded Ukraine the economic experts said this would happen. 
 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

I disagree.. An Executive Decision was the initial cause.  We probably should stop here before this Thread goes off the rails.. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Larsongs

[TomG76]

On 7/4/2022 at 8:27 AM, Jinder said:

This is a topic I’d like to debate. 
 

I last bought a new Gibson in 2016, my SJ200. It’s my primary live instrument and has been on a great many sessions for both myself and other artists. It’s a 2015, and, whilst I played, had been superseded by the revamped model with the Anthem etc fitted by the time I bought it, so got a very good deal on it (£2500 new).

Now, in the UK the SJ200 Standard sells for £4399. That’s $5330. The Studio for around a grand less. 

A standard style non-cut J185 anywhere from £3200 to £3800. 

Even a J45, the “Workhorse”, is a good way north of £2000. 

Below that there are the G45 and the Sustainable models etc, but to get your hands on a “real” Gibson is almost impossible for the working musician. 
 

To give this some context, I am a musical odd job man-I’m a songwriter for myself and other acts, recording artist, session player/singer, touring artist, function band musician, MD, guitar tech and tour manager. I’ve worked in music full time for 25yrs and am not workshy-I’m always doing something.

I cannot ever see a time, especially in the post-Covid restrictions world, when I would ever be able to afford to buy a new Gibson again. Used, perhaps…but the new prices are absolutely unattainable for us road dogs who are out there working in music full time. 
 

I find this impossibly disappointing for Gibson themselves-their guitars have been in the hands of so many emerging artists over the last century, and they have essentially written themselves out of that reality going forwards.

I KNOW Gibson have always been a premium product, but for owning one to now be beyond the bounds of aspiration for those who could actually use a solid, world class instrument is sad, to me at least.

If I was in the position I was in 20yrs ago now, I’d be playing an Epi IBG model and not my first SJ200, the guitar that changed my life.

For me the sweet spot would be a Gibson being expensive but not impossibly so.

I bought my J-50 in 2020 because I realised the stars had aligned (secure job, no social life thanks to lockdown, limited outgoings) and that I needed to pounce.

It absolutely does sadden me that a working musician would now struggle to buy one. My J-50 would sound a lot better in your hands than it does in mine, @Jinder.

Gibson is a Rolls Royce brand, but whereas there is a sort of delicious torture in not being able to afford a luxury car, you really do want to be able to own a nice guitar. 

A Martin from 1836, say, might be an unreasonable fantasy. I'm very sorry that a Gibson J-45 is.

[TomG76]

On 7/7/2022 at 2:48 PM, Jinder said:

Session work is the outlier here…generally (in the UK at least), the pickers with the recognisable/desirable kit get the work. I’ve had clients flat-out reject certain guitars because of brand prejudice. I owned a fantastic Duolian style steel bodied resonator made by Michael Messer which sounded like weeping angels…I was asked to play some slide on an Americana project and turned up with the Messer expecting to wow the clients with its beautiful tone, but they rejected it before I played a note because it wasn’t a National or Dobro. I’ve had my SJ200 turned down for not being a D18, and even my old D18 Golden Era (which sounded incredible) turned down for not being a D28.

This is unutterably mental.

[RvrDxn]

8 hours ago, QuestionMark said:

I think it’s pretty clear that the crazy Russian dictator who invaded Ukraine for the crazy reason he did is the cause of the gas inflation and the overall inflation we’re having now.   When he invaded Ukraine the economic experts said this would happen. 
 

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

Prices were going up before Putin ever made a move. Remember the forced lockdowns and mass printing of money that doesn’t exist?

[fortyearspickn]

20 hours ago, Larsongs said:

I hope Gibson isn’t building Acoustic Guitars from new Wood they bought last month!

Seriously, most Acoustics are built from Wood bought quite a while ago.. It’s usually stored for some time before using to build Acoustic Guitars.. That said, it doesn’t mean Guitars should be priced at what Wood cost at that time. Or any time..

The way it works is -  you have inventories that cost what you spent on them - x years ago, but they have increased in 'value' in times of inflation.   You wouldn't sell a Mickey Mantle baseball card you bought for 5 cents with 4 more cards and a stick of gum today for a penny.  So, on your 'balance sheet' you value that asset at its worth today.  as a result - your 'Equity" or net worth goes up.  Same as if the real estate worth of land in Bozeman your building is sitting on went up because of all the California immigrants.  The cash Bozeman doles out this year to buy rosewood which they have to sit on for years, has to be covered this year by cash they take in this year.  Or - they look like they are losing money.  And, they would be. 

A minor point -  otherwise I agree with you 100%.     (I'm guessing the Russians have seized all the Ukrainian Rosewood.)

[Sgt. Pepper]

What working musician are we talking about? A bar band working their local bars, Jinder, a group no one has heard of that is an opening act and is getting 25 mins to play, or guys like The Edge, or Dave Mustaine? Working Musician is a huge gray area?  But I think Dave might just have more income than the bar band guy. 
Concerts are still getting canceled it just happened to me. Ringo was supposed to be in June. Now it’s September due to Edgar Winter and Steve Lukather getting the Chinese flu.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Larsongs]

About 90-95% of Musicians are Hobbyists & Weekend Warriors. The latter, for the most part, play their local Bars & Pubs for Peanuts.

Of course they can’t afford $4000 + Guitars… Do they really even need them? The cheaper Epiphones, Squiers & Electromatics make affordable decent options that work fine for those applications… 

When you hit the Big Time & are making Big $$$$ then you step up… You earned it!

That said, if you got the $$$ get whatever you want….. But it ain’t worth crying about, nothing you can do about it….

It is, what it is…. 

[dhanners623]

22 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

About 90-95% of Musicians are Hobbyists & Weekend Warriors. The latter, for the most part, play their local Bars & Pubs for Peanuts.

Of course they can’t afford $4000 + Guitars… Do they really even need them? The cheaper Epiphones, Squiers & Electromatics make affordable decent options that work fine for those applications… 

When you hit the Big Time & are making Big $$$$ then you step up… You earned it!

That said, if you got the $$$ get whatever you want….. But it ain’t worth crying about, nothing you can do about it….

It is, what it is…. 

There is the old saying that a folk musician is someone who schleps $5K worth of gear to a gig that pays $50….

[Sgt. Pepper]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:08 AM, fortyearspickn said:

Even Sgt.Pepper with his  "Yes" and then "No". (Probably the best answer.)

You feeling okay. You may need to guy lie down. Agreeing with me two times in one week. Your brain is gonna pop open. Soon you'll be asking me for advice on Zappa albums ect.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Sgt. Pepper]

14 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

There is the old saying that a folk musician is someone who schleps $5K worth of gear to a gig that pays $50….

I guess Bob Dylan and Paul Simon are not those guys you speak of? For decades (about 5 or more) those guys have not struggled.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Larsongs]

2 hours ago, dhanners623 said:

There is the old saying that a folk musician is someone who schleps $5K worth of gear to a gig that pays $50….

That old saying replies to many Musicians playing all kinds of music!

But, quite honestly an Epiphone Dot, a Squier CV Tele & a Squier P- Bass will work quite well for those $50.00 gigs..  

Edited July 17, 2022 by Larsongs

[dhanners623]

2 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I guess Bob Dylan and Paul Simon are not those guys you speak of? For decades (about 5 or more) those guys have not struggled.

Yes, naming two musicians who have 26 Grammys between them obviously disproves my entire point. My bad.

[Sgt. Pepper]

17 minutes ago, dhanners623 said:

Yes, naming two musicians who have 26 Grammys between them obviously disproves my entire point. My bad.

We all know many try but few make it to Dylan status. Some are just bedroom rock stars. 

Not everyone who works in a grocery store starts out as the manager.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[BluesKing777]

 

Yep, there is the accountant's MSRP and the used price etc, but I don't see much about some kind of 'lovability' 'playability' index... you know, you have a 10 -15 year old version of the new models that got the good build on a nice day, it is now broken in beautifully, plays sensationally after a number of setups and alterations including the best pickup you can buy, etc...but this is worth, on paper, half of the new model?

These are the ones I keep and eye for, and have bought a couple of neglected beauties over the last few years and had them repaired. Great fodder for the struggling musician. And on a 'lovability/value/playability' index, out of 10...maybe way higher than what a new one could score.....

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by BluesKing777

[fortyearspickn]

19 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

You feeling okay. You may need to guy lie down. Agreeing with me two times in one week. Your brain is gonna pop open. Soon you'll be asking me for advice on Zappa albums ect.

A clock that doesn't run tells the right time twice a day...