I never realized guitars go to sleep!?

[rustystrings]

I don't think it's the humidity that causes a guitar to go sharp while sitting it its case.  It's temperature.  The guitar's STRINGS conduct heat/cold more so than anything else about the instrument.  When not being played the strings go to room temperature.  If you had it tuned while playing it earlier, AFTER playing for a while and AFTER your body heat as transmitted through your hands had warmed up the strings, then let the guitar sit until it reaches room temperature, the strings will cool down and contract, thus making them sharp.  

[merciful-evans]

I leave one guitar out on a stand permanently. Its always in tune; even if I don't touch it for a few days.

I keep everything else in cases. That includes all Gibsons. They are usually slightly sharp when I fetch them out - at this time of year anyway.

[PrairieDog]

1 hour ago, rustystrings said:

I don't think it's the humidity that causes a guitar to go sharp while sitting it its case.  It's temperature.  The guitar's STRINGS conduct heat/cold more so than anything else about the instrument.  When not being played the strings go to room temperature.  If you had it tuned while playing it earlier, AFTER playing for a while and AFTER your body heat as transmitted through your hands had warmed up the strings, then let the guitar sit until it reaches room temperature, the strings will cool down and contract, thus making them sharp.  

Yeah, it’s sitting out on the stand, not in the case, as I said.  I did an update that proved my theory was right. it’s not out of tune at all, just stiffened up.  I haven’t had the “initial sharp/tune down/strum once/now it’s flat/tune back up” routine since I started just strumming a few times and warming it up. Takes like literally 30 seconds.  Much happier.

 

[jt]

Think of the physics of the proposition that guitars go to sleep and then wake up when played. Guitars are composed of long-dead pieces of wood (or never alive scraps of carbon fiber). Playing them cannot change them. Really.

I'm currently at work on a book about the art and science of the guitar, which will contain a chapter on the physics of the guitar (and chapters on history, the neurology of hearing, the psychology of hearing, acoustics, etc.): The Acoustic Guitar: Inside the World’s Most Popular Musical Instrument (Oxford University Press, 2024). I'll address the notion of inanimate objects falling asleep and then waking up.

[E-minor7]

17 minutes ago, jt said:

Think of the physics of the proposition that guitars go to sleep and then wake up when played. Guitars are composed of long-dead pieces of wood (or never alive scraps of carbon fiber). Playing them cannot change them. Really.

I'm currently at work on a book about the art and science of the guitar, which will contain a chapter on the physics of the guitar (and chapters on history, the neurology of hearing, the psychology of hearing, acoustics, etc.): The Acoustic Guitar: Inside the World’s Most Popular Musical Instrument (Oxford University Press, 2024). I'll address the notion of inanimate objects falling asleep and then waking up.

So are you saying an acoustic guitar can't fall to sleep or even go dead when not bein' played. I just need to be sure. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Good luck with the book.

[jt]

21 minutes ago, E-minor7 said:

So are you saying an acoustic guitar can't fall to sleep or even go dead when not bein' played. I just need to be sure. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Good luck with the book.

Yup. Ain't possible. But our ears can forget how a guitar sounds. I've experienced this many times.

[E-minor7]

35 minutes ago, jt said:

Yup. Ain't possible. But our ears can forget how a guitar sounds. I've experienced this many times.

Yet I keep experiencing the opposite. Also today with the 1953 J-45. However I'm aware that human ears are remarkably keen to adapt to new sounds or let's say sound-nuances. Just think about how we so very easily accept the next record we put on as 'representing 100' - also though the one we replace technically had a much higher hi-fi-level. 

That said I find hard to believe that the wood, which we make vibrate, isn't able to warm up and be more flexible/vibrant when being kept in motion. 

You have probably heard both acknowledged musicians and luthiers talk about wooden instruments bein' better the more playing they get. Neil Young sings about it, but ok he's a romantic - some luthiers claim they can hear if a guitar was treated gently or roughly, , , and fx was owned by a person who preferred the key of D. 

My own feeling (I'm no scientist) tells it's a mix. Adjusting ears combined with glued together warmed up wood. Actually what I tried to express in post #3.                                                                                                                                                                                "The trick is to patiently facilitate the rendezvous between your hearing and the warmer'n'warmer guitar." 

But JT, let's hear more about everything you find out. The entire acoustic universe is curiously waiting, , , and probably will remain divided no matter how any dice falls. 

[chasAK]

I agree our ears have a lot to do with it but I have a question concerning the physics. I am not a scientist nor have I studied the physical properties of wood, so my question resides in the popular level of ignorance. Here is my question, “Just because something is dead and not in active growth or repair does that mean it is not reactive?” I believe what we are talking about is the reactive properties of sound wood to an extended period of inactivity. Plastics and even our metal strings have memory. A piece of car molding when heated will often return to a relative normal (previous) shape. Cold that not be so concerning wood in reference to vibrations, whether the memory is the old stiffness or new looseness?

Concerning humidity causing sharpness, the physics of the wood swelling would support that proposition.  

Jt, that sounds like another interesting book!!

[jt]

9 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Yet I keep experiencing the opposite. ...

My own feeling (I'm no scientist) tells it's a mix. Adjusting ears combined with glued together warmed up wood. Actually what I tried to express in post #3.                                                                                                                                                                                "The trick is to patiently facilitate the rendezvous between your hearing and the warmer'n'warmer guitar." 

But JT, let's hear more about everything you find out. The entire acoustic universe is curiously waiting, , , and probably will remain divided no matter how any dice falls. 

Interesting. We do hear what we hear. I'll post another thread that links to my study of hearing preference--do we favor bass or treble frequencies--and tonewood and string preferences.

Thanks for posting this.

[jt]

4 hours ago, chasAK said:

... “Just because something is dead and not in active growth or repair does that mean it is not reactive?” I believe what we are talking about is the reactive properties of sound wood to an extended period of inactivity. Plastics and even our metal strings have memory. A piece of car molding when heated will often return to a relative normal (previous) shape. Cold that not be so concerning wood in reference to vibrations, whether the memory is the old stiffness or new looseness?

Concerning humidity causing sharpness, the physics of the wood swelling would support that proposition.  

Jt, that sounds like another interesting book!!

Great points! Thank you.

[Murph]

Somebody answer that damned phone...

[fortyearspickn]

I think my ears are much more likely to 'go to sleep' than my guitars might, after sitting unplayed for a week or so.  They absolutely need to 'wake up' every morning after 6 or 7 hours of dead silence.   When I wake up, it takes me 10 minutes before I can understand what my wife is saying.  So, either she's mumbling until she finishes her tea, or my ears are out of synch until I finish my coffee.  And it's safer to assume the latter. 

[Low Country Boy]

Ha! That's an astute observation 40. Same thing happens to me and the wife in the mornings.

Here is a quote from the (heaven forbid) Fender website:  Why Do Guitars Go Out of Tune? | Fender Guitars

"2. THE CLIMATE

Guitars and their strings are greatly affected by extreme changes in temperature, as they will expand when it’s warm (making it sound flat) and contract when cold (resulting in a sharper sound)."

So, if one accepts this concept, could the human body generate enough heat to warm the guitar and strings enough to make them go from sharp to in tune? I don't know but the science suggests it's possible.

LCB

[PrairieDog]

14 hours ago, jt said:

Yup. Ain't possible. But our ears can forget how a guitar sounds. I've experienced this many times.

Okay, but this doesn’t explain how my DIGITAL tuner is simply “mishearing” the sharpness?  I’m not basing any of this on my hearing. it’s a high quality, non-headstock tuner, using the physics of sound-waves, detecting the out-of-tune states that is reporting.  Once I scrapped tuning right off the stand, the “problem” was solved.  My guitar goes in tune once I work it for a minute or two.  

To your other points claiming inert materials can’t respond to being played and affect tune? I’m not sure I’m following that?  Anyone who has worked with wood and metal knows that the physical properties react depending on temperature and how much you “flex” the materials.   Warm, damp wood is more resilient to breaking than dry, frozen wood (just ask anyone trying to build a camp fire in Minnesota in January vs August.) Bend a room temperature piece wire enough the friction from the vibration and force will cause it to break.  But apply heat and you can create intricate wrought iron designs, bedsprings, or damascene swords. But apply too much heat, and too much force, it goes brittle and breaks.   So the physics say, the vibration of sound waves through a guitar body, by strumming the strings is causing friction (heat) among the molecules in each component, however undetectable outside of lab instruments.  Strings don’t break just because they feel like it, they are snapping to due metal fatigue from prolonged vibration (heat) combined with prolong tension (force).  So, it only stands to reason that a guitar, under the friction from the vibrations of being played is going to warm up.  If the term “wake up” is too poetic for these physical reactions, hey, I’m a bit of a colorful romantic.  but all I can say is I haven’t had to touch my pegs for 4 days now.

[jt]

19 hours ago, PrairieDog said:

Okay, but this doesn’t explain how my DIGITAL tuner is simply “mishearing” the sharpness?  I’m not basing any of this on my hearing. it’s a high quality, non-headstock tuner, using the physics of sound-waves, detecting the out-of-tune states that is reporting.  Once I scrapped tuning right off the stand, the “problem” was solved.  My guitar goes in tune once I work it for a minute or two.  

... 

Interesting! All I can do is quote my children, who now long into adulthood still proclaim, "When in doubt, bet against dad. He's almost always wrong." 🙂

I suppose that the friction caused by vibrations raises the temperature of the wood and guitar.

Thanks so much for posting this.

[Murph]

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up...

[E-minor7]

15 minutes ago, Murph said:

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up...

☺️ , , , , can we hear your probably qualified thoughts. .  

                                                                                                                   Sometimes asleep >< Always awake ?

[Murph]

I believe my guitars "move" with temp and humidity, not "sleepyness".

I tune them before I start playing them, because if just one single string is a little bit off it'll drive me nuts, however the process of tuning them IS actually playing them, so I suppose the act of tuning would qualify for playing the guitar during tuning and then I play them and if anything changes due to the temperature and/or humidity then I will tune them again ad infinitum.

I suppose sometimes strings will stretch, too, but I've never seen one shrink.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Murph

[scriv58]

It seems to me to be most likely that the workman warms up to the tools, be they carpenter, electrician, graphic artist, musician, etc.

At the risk of making the acoustic guitar a totem or fetish, there is still a mystic quality to the symbiosis of the player and the played.🤪

[scriv58]

A good fr'instance is I just sat down with my national reso and things sound a bit awkward because I haven't played it since Thursday. But in a few minutes my bones and muscles will recall and limber up to things like slide feel and open tuning.

"But that is a metal body!" thou doth protest...ah yes "same difference" I reply in true oxymoronic fashion.

Wow that's a lot of words for me in one post ooofa

[scriv58]

And just now I fired up my Hauver blind Blake model dedicated to open D tuning to play "police dog blues"- the guitar sounded same throughout but I became more nimble  through the challenging (to me) tune. It had sat unplayed last two days.

 Perhaps sonic beauty lies in the ears of the behearer (an old word I just made up)

[BoSoxBiker]

On 9/10/2023 at 2:52 PM, J185cat said:

I like to rotate my guitars around so that none go for long periods without getting played. I always have two in the den ready to play, do that for awhile and then rotate one out for a different one.

I do a similar thing. 6 guitars, two out for a week then rotate. It was 1 out per week, which meant every 5th week. The current rotation is much better.

@PrairieDog I get the same thing to varying degrees as you describe, both day to day and after a couple weeks in the case. Day to day tuning stability was easy. Every morning I tune one guitar then the other. I then return to the first one and start playing. It almost always is set in and ready by the time I start playing. Sometimes I might tune them and go make another cup of coffee before playing.

If my strings are newish (1-4 weeks), they require minimal tuning and provide no fuss. Start counting the string-age in months and the tuning becomes less stable. Get close to the end and my little system doesn't work so well.  Weather changes are as others describe. They all need it, but not too much. 

When I break them out of case-jail every third week is when some of them get grumpy sounding. My 2018 Hummingbird Standard takes a whole day to sound like it is not stiff sounding if the strings are anywhere close to being worn out. If they are fresh, it's good 15-30 minutes later as long as some of that time is to rest. Otherwise, on the 3rd Monday, I tune up my Martin D-41, then my Hummingbird and then play my Martin for most of the rest of the day.  The other 4 guitars are normally much better just a small time after tuning and some playing. The fresher the strings, the better unless they are brand new. Predictably enough, when I'm sick of fighting the warbled, muffled sounds or the uninspiring lack of energy, I change strings and life with that guitar is all shiny and better. Birthday cake and honeydew melons for everyone.

As some would say, the ear plays tricks on oneself. Certainly does with me. There's also the subconscious element that guitar plays enjoy, which is to do an absent minded adjustment with our fingers as needed to sound the best. Maybe the sound was garbled because a particular string was pressed too hard or a barre chord as not crisp. (mini topic rambling follows) That's why I can't put a whole lot of merit into string gauge comparisons. The player is playing a song and will almost(?) always make adjustments when they think they are too thin or too fat, for example. Same for plectrum thicknesses. Go from a 1MM to a 1.14MM and it sounds thicker right away. Maybe for the whole song or even the entire session. Once that's out of my mind, though, I'm trying to make the song sound how I want it to sound regardless of which pick I have in my hand. That's a whole other topic, though. Point is, I think our tolerances for less than ideal string & guitar conditions grow as our adjustment skills grow. 

 

 

[Murph]

I just saw an ad on tv for a guitar pillow.

My Guitar Pillow . com....

[fortyearspickn]

16 hours ago, Murph said:

I just saw an ad on tv for a guitar pillow.

My Guitar Pillow . com....

Was a guy named Mike selling them?   A pillow for your guitar, or a pillow for you with a picture of your guitar?     I had  a 'legitimate' one. My daughter got it for me, one desperate Christmas Present shopping event a decade ago.  Sits on your knee, "C" shaped foam w a black zippered cover. Sort of like a classical guitarist would use to raise the smaller classical guitar.  I think they came in  'large' or  'medium' size.   Tried it out a few times - gave it up. Gave it away. To "GoodWIll" !   It would probably be ok if you were 7 feet tall and playing a 3/4 sized guitar. 

[E-minor7]

13 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Was a guy named Mike selling them?   A pillow for your guitar, or a pillow for you with a picture of your guitar?     I had  a 'legitimate' one. My daughter got it for me, one desperate Christmas Present shopping event a decade ago.  Sits on your knee, "C" shaped foam w a black zippered cover. Sort of like a classical guitarist would use to raise the smaller classical guitar.  I think they came in  'large' or  'medium' size.   Tried it out a few times - gave it up. Gave it away. To "GoodWIll" !   It would probably be ok if you were 7 feet tall and playing a 3/4 sized guitar. 

                               Just wonder how your daughter took it. .