Intellectual Property

[DanvillRob]

We may have covered this subject before:

A couple of days ago I got an email from YouTube saying one of my posts had been taken down due to a "Copyright Claim" from  Universal Music Publishing Group.

I had posted The Eagles' "Witchy Woman" a few years ago.

Most everyone knows how "prickly" The Eagles are about using their songs in a fashion...but this seems harsh.

I tried to post "Desperado" years ago, and YouTube wouldn't let me post it within the US, but was available outside the US.

A friend posted a video of some happening in her back yard, and it got taken down because an Eagles song was playing in the background.

Here are my reasons for my position on this:

1. My YouTube account is not monetized..... I make zero dollars from any of my videos.

2. It certainly isn't good enough to be a threat to The Eagles.

3. Very few views, I mostly post them for my grandkids to have in future years.

4. I fully credit the songwriters and The Eagles, along with any dates I can find.

5. NO ONE can learn music without learning other people's songs.

 

Also, I can relate as some of my "intellectual property" was pirated.

We had one of our singles on "Pebbles 10" and another on Pebbles 11.

We had one of our songs released by "The Shitbirds", (I didn't name them!).

Never considered forcing them to be removed! In fact, our manager  contacted the lead singer for the group and complimented her on their arrangement!

 

I'm sure there are differing opinions on this.....my take is that if someone is using someone else's songs to make money, they should compensate the songwriter.

If someone is using actual songs by an artist to make money, they need to compensate the artist and songwriter.

How much is probably where I'd differ from Don Henley.

 

Here's a discussion on this subject:

https://www.iheart.com/content/2020-07-22-eagles-have-60-people-policing-the-internet-for-unlawful-use-of-their-music/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0Cs17DipRKxuxIFw2JC-qnBWCe-LCjtvp6Uq1sKFU3_SvzdBCKT6KEuHA_aem_fc5heBC79SUbVyBA3-Xymg

[Larsongs]

I don’t get it. I’ve read that the Original Artists, Songwriter & Publisher get paid some Royalties even if someone Covers their Songs on YouTube. Not sure about the intellect behind that?

[slimt]

Restrictions    If your not paying , your not playing. 
 

 

[DanvillRob]

6 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

I don’t get it. I’ve read that the Original Artists, Songwriter & Publisher get paid some Royalties even if someone Covers their Songs on YouTube. Not sure about the intellect behind that?

We used to go to Radio Stations and BEG them to play our records!   Never got paid, but did get played!

[DanvillRob]

2 minutes ago, slimt said:

Restrictions    If your not paying , your not playing. 
 

 

Yeah....I guess those 60 guys gotta do SOMETHING!

[rct]

It's all or nothing, that's how it works here.  If they are going to scale the use to you being just fine and that guy being not quite just fine and that guy outright profiting off the Eagles, who will decide?  Who will manage this and do all the work?  Nobody, that's who.  So it is all or nothing.

rct

[Larsongs]

There’s a great movie that I’ve watched a couple times. I think it’s called “Cadillac Records”. There’s a great scene with Chuck Berry, Allen Freed & Leonard Chess, the head of Chess Records. They’re trying to get Airplay for Chuck’s new Record, “Jonny B Goode. Great movie. Allen Freed said, this a great Record. What’s in it for me? Payola goes back a long long way..

If you haven’t seen this movie it’s a must watch. Beyoncé stars as Etta James & I’m not a big fan but she’s great. Adrian Brody is also great as Leonard Chess. There are some other great Actors but I don’t know all their names..

 

[Sheepdog1969]

I was in the Service Industry since I was fifteen as a soda jerk. When I began collage in 1987, I stopped working, thinking I had enough money to cover my costs and study. WRONG! So, I finagled my way into a bartending gig, despite only being a few months shy of 19. One quality that kept me employed was my ability to create cross faded mix tapes (cassettes) of pop music that I would play at the bar during my bartending shifts. Even though I wasn't really into "top 40" crap, the college women were, and women in the bar equaled 2-3 times as many men in the bar. I worked with a friend who had a part time gig at a nearby "record" store, and he would turn me on to LP's/extended mixes ( on vinyl) of the latest pop releases. Between classes I would "borrow", from his store, 90 minutes of new music and lay 45 min per side of a Maxell chromium dioxide XLII cassette, (from a pair of Technics turn tables and a Radio Shack cross fade mixer), the newest tracks of the week. Every bartending shift I worked was accompanied by 45 min (then flip the tape for 45 min more) of female enticing top 40. My shifts were always busy, and when asked by my patrons, "What song is that?", I would tell them and refer them to my friend's record store where they could buy the tracks.  I paid nothing for the music, (my only "cost" was the time spent to mix the tapes), my bar was always full, my tips were always excellent, and my friend's store got lots of business because my customers liked the music I played. It was a win-win for everyone, including the record labels and the artists.  By exposing my customers to extended "club" mixes of new songs, I provided advertising and information about said, which FM radio did not. But, after graduating and moving back to the Chicago area to run a large dance club, I ran afoul of ASCAP. Every few months, a couple of poorly fitted suit wearing 20 somethings would come into the club and attempt to extort us for Royalty payments based on every track we played each day. I explained, each time, that they actually needed to pay me/us, because of the advertising we provided the record labels/artists each time we "promoted" their tracks at our club, when we played them for hundreds of patrons each night. Never did these ASCAP fools accept my argument, and never did I pay them a penny. This constant barrage of ASCAP extortionists continued throughout my entire career in the industry, including my decade plus of bar ownership in Chicago. 

A young woman (Beth) who had an office in the building adjacent to my bar on Green St. in Chicago, whom I became close friends with, happened to be the manager for Urge Overkill and Combustible Edison. She had given me every CD each of her bands had released, and asked me to include a few of their tracks into my daily play list, which I happily did.  One summer afternoon, Beth, a "Big wig" from Atlantic Records, and the band members of Combustible Edison stopped in to my bar.  Beth politely asked if they could use my backroom, (which could be closed off for private events), for a few hours while they negotiated a new record contract. (they were finalizing the sound track deal for the movie Four Rooms ) .  I happily agreed. It just so happened that I was playing a Combustible Edison CD when they entered. Within minutes of the group beginning their meeting, two ASCAP morons entered my business and began their typical extortion grift, actually referring to the Combustible Edison CD that was playing as a Royalty required music source. I told them that the CD had been given to me by the band's manager, who had asked me to play it to promote her band. Further, I informed the ASCAP ******s, that the band, their manager, and their Atlantic records executive where in my back room. The ASCAP idiots said that it didn't matter who gave me the CD, or who was in my bar.  They said that I owed them Royalty payments, period. I giggled and walked into the backroom and told my guests about the  ASCAP grifters. Holy cow, did these two ASCAP idiots get read the riot act by Beth, the band, and the Atlantic rep.. My guest made it quite clear that ASCAP Chicago had NEVER forwarded them a penny, regarding these "Royalty payments", and told them to GTFO even before I could. 

There is a huge difference between FM radio stations playing music and making money off the stations advertising revenue that is priced/sold based on listenership numbers, and a bar paying for CD's, (and then playing that CD at the bar), and not generating income specifically based on said music played. YouTube members who do not monetize  the music they post, are actually NON COMPENSATED advertisers for said music. A posted self created "video", that happens to contain audio of a copyrighted music track, inadvertently captured by the video recorder's microphone, is NOT copyright infringement.  I submit that all non monetized dissemination of copyrighted content is actually non compensated advertising of said copyrighted content. Suck on that ASCAP!! 

Edited July 7 by Sheepdog1969

[rct]

2 hours ago, Sheepdog1969 said:

There is a huge difference between FM radio stations playing music and making money off the stations advertising revenue that is priced/sold based on listenership numbers, and a bar paying for CD's, (and then playing that CD at the bar), and not generating income specifically based on said music played. YouTube members who do not monetize  the music they post, are actually NON COMPENSATED advertisers for said music. A posted self created "video", that happens to contain audio of a copyrighted music track, inadvertently captured by the video recorder's microphone, is NOT copyright infringement.  I submit that all non monetized dissemination of copyrighted content is actually non compensated advertising of said copyrighted content. Suck on that ASCAP!! 

And in the only place that any of this matters you would be wrong.  Pay up.

rct

[slimt]

Im not a fan of the Eagles anyways.  they have been over  played.  It’s all about greed at this point.  

as like most bands out there   They all feel like there owed something 

 

[Sheepdog1969]

4 minutes ago, rct said:

And in the only place that any of this matters you would be wrong.  Pay up.

Funny how I never paid a penny, nor was I subject to any litigation. "Wrong" is defined, nowadays, by the courts, not by personal opinions. By legal definition, I WAS RIGHT!

[saturn]

7 hours ago, Sheepdog1969 said:

I was in the Service Industry since I was fifteen as a soda jerk. When I began collage in 1987, I stopped working, thinking I had enough money to cover my costs and study. WRONG! So, I finagled my way into a bartending gig, despite only being a few months shy of 19. One quality that kept me employed was my ability to create cross faded mix tapes (cassettes) of pop music that I would play at the bar during my bartending shifts. Even though I wasn't really into "top 40" crap, the college women were, and women in the bar equaled 2-3 times as many men in the bar. I worked with a friend who had a part time gig at a nearby "record" store, and he would turn me on to LP's/extended mixes ( on vinyl) of the latest pop releases. Between classes I would "borrow", from his store, 90 minutes of new music and lay 45 min per side of a Maxell chromium dioxide XLII cassette, (from a pair of Technics turn tables and a Radio Shack cross fade mixer), the newest tracks of the week. Every bartending shift I worked was accompanied by 45 min (then flip the tape for 45 min more) of female enticing top 40. My shifts were always busy, and when asked by my patrons, "What song is that?", I would tell them and refer them to my friend's record store where they could buy the tracks.  I paid nothing for the music, (my only "cost" was the time spent to mix the tapes), my bar was always full, my tips were always excellent, and my friend's store got lots of business because my customers liked the music I played. It was a win-win for everyone, including the record labels and the artists.  By exposing my customers to extended "club" mixes of new songs, I provided advertising and information about said, which FM radio did not. But, after graduating and moving back to the Chicago area to run a large dance club, I ran afoul of ASCAP. Every few months, a couple of poorly fitted suit wearing 20 somethings would come into the club and attempt to extort us for Royalty payments based on every track we played each day. I explained, each time, that they actually needed to pay me/us, because of the advertising we provided the record labels/artists each time we "promoted" their tracks at our club, when we played them for hundreds of patrons each night. Never did these ASCAP fools accept my argument, and never did I pay them a penny. This constant barrage of ASCAP extortionists continued throughout my entire career in the industry, including my decade plus of bar ownership in Chicago. 

A young woman (Beth) who had an office in the building adjacent to my bar on Green St. in Chicago, whom I became close friends with, happened to be the manager for Urge Overkill and Combustible Edison. She had given me every CD each of her bands had released, and asked me to include a few of their tracks into my daily play list, which I happily did.  One summer afternoon, Beth, a "Big wig" from Atlantic Records, and the band members of Combustible Edison stopped in to my bar.  Beth politely asked if they could use my backroom, (which could be closed off for private events), for a few hours while they negotiated a new record contract. (they were finalizing the sound track deal for the movie Four Rooms ) .  I happily agreed. It just so happened that I was playing a Combustible Edison CD when they entered. Within minutes of the group beginning their meeting, two ASCAP morons entered my business and began their typical extortion grift, actually referring to the Combustible Edison CD that was playing as a Royalty required music source. I told them that the CD had been given to me by the band's manager, who had asked me to play it to promote her band. Further, I informed the ASCAP ******s, that the band, their manager, and their Atlantic records executive where in my back room. The ASCAP idiots said that it didn't matter who gave me the CD, or who was in my bar.  They said that I owed them Royalty payments, period. I giggled and walked into the backroom and told my guests about the  ASCAP grifters. Holy cow, did these two ASCAP idiots get read the riot act by Beth, the band, and the Atlantic rep.. My guest made it quite clear that ASCAP Chicago had NEVER forwarded them a penny, regarding these "Royalty payments", and told them to GTFO even before I could. 

There is a huge difference between FM radio stations playing music and making money off the stations advertising revenue that is priced/sold based on listenership numbers, and a bar paying for CD's, (and then playing that CD at the bar), and not generating income specifically based on said music played. YouTube members who do not monetize  the music they post, are actually NON COMPENSATED advertisers for said music. A posted self created "video", that happens to contain audio of a copyrighted music track, inadvertently captured by the video recorder's microphone, is NOT copyright infringement.  I submit that all non monetized dissemination of copyrighted content is actually non compensated advertising of said copyrighted content. Suck on that ASCAP!! 

As a player in several cover bands over the years, I have experienced the loss of gigs at several of our venues  because of the club owners reluctance to deal with ASCAP and/or BMI.  They simply stopped booking live music.

Edited July 7 by saturn

[ksdaddy]

About ten years ago I posted a slide show on YouTube of a horribly abused SG that I restored. I had “Hell’s Bells” playing over the slide show. After several months, YouTube removed the audio portion (the video remains, just mute).  I’m certainly not making any money from this video, the music just fit and I wanted to use it. How do others do it? There are thousands of videos on YouTube that were posted by ordinary idiots like me, with no malice intended, that have copyrighted music. Some music historians or record collectors even post videos of the actual records being played. How do they do it? (He asked innocently)

 

[Pinch]

You  can't spell prickly without prick. These types of things just make me shake my head.

[DanvillRob]

15 hours ago, rct said:

And in the only place that any of this matters you would be wrong.  Pay up.

rct

I suspect you do, or have played other's music.... maybe in your living room..... do you think you owe the songwriter some royalties?

I wonder why they sell sheet music to their songs if they didn't want anyone to play them?

I posted my video of "Witchy Woman" on my Facebook page, (along with an explanation of what happened), and I'm SURE it's gotten more views than it would have being a 3-year old video on my YouTube Channel.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Don H loves to not have Eagles stuff on YT, cause he’s not rich enough and you are cutting into his piece of the pie.

[DanvillRob]

Just now, Sgt. Pepper said:

Don H loves to not have Eagles stuff on YT, cause he’s not rich enough and you are cutting into his piece of the pie.

Maybe he's upset that he got caught lip-singing "Desperado" to "live" audiences!

I mean, people pay a LOT of $ to see The Eagles "live"....maybe HE owes some money back to fans who reached deep into their pockets, only to have him "phone-it-in"!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 minute ago, DanvillRob said:

Maybe he's upset that he got caught lip-singing "Desperado" to "live" audiences!

I mean, people pay a LOT of $ to see The Eagles "live"....maybe HE owes some money back to fans who reached deep into their pockets, only to have him "phone-it-in"!

 

The Eagles without Don Felder bores me. He was the best guitarist they ever had. And yes I know Joe W is in the band.

[Larsongs]

19 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

The Eagles without Don Felder bores me. He was the best guitarist they ever had. And yes I know Joe W is in the band.

Joe Walsh was/is a great Guitarist. Don Felder was/is a Master Guitarist.

I’m glad I grew up in those times & got to see the greatest Bands in history in their prime.

Edited July 7 by Larsongs

[rct]

49 minutes ago, DanvillRob said:

I suspect you do, or have played other's music.... maybe in your living room..... do you think you owe the songwriter some royalties?

I wonder why they sell sheet music to their songs if they didn't want anyone to play them?

I posted my video of "Witchy Woman" on my Facebook page, (along with an explanation of what happened), and I'm SURE it's gotten more views than it would have being a 3-year old video on my YouTube Channel.

I've done everything a person can do with a guitar in all kinds of places with all kinds of some of the best people ever.  Covers were and are the responsibility of the venue, always have been and probably always will be, so no, I don't owe anyone anything, that part of it is not what players do anymore than facilities logistics or food service.

I suspect that you, on the other hand, haven't attempted to monetize any of your own music, in any decade, and fully grasped what it means and how you have to go about it.  I say that because usually the people skwawking the loudest about these things have no clue what is involved and just how difficult it really can be.

rct

[DanvillRob]

32 minutes ago, rct said:

I've done everything a person can do with a guitar in all kinds of places with all kinds of some of the best people ever.  Covers were and are the responsibility of the venue, always have been and probably always will be, so no, I don't owe anyone anything, that part of it is not what players do anymore than facilities logistics or food service.

I suspect that you, on the other hand, haven't attempted to monetize any of your own music, in any decade, and fully grasped what it means and how you have to go about it.  I say that because usually the people skwawking the loudest about these things have no clue what is involved and just how difficult it really can be.

rct

rct, I don't disagree.... I put this up for conversations and opinions.

As I said, my "intellectual property" (actually MY bass playing and singing) were bootlegged and released to two different albums...not only did no one pay me, but no one even asked!

The song that was released by another group wouldn't owe me anything, but the songwriter might have a claim, (our Lead Guitar player).

So, I've been on both sides....and I get permission from anyone in the forum to record their songs...I just think it's the right thing to do.

But I think you can see that a schmuck like me posting a video on YouTube to preserve it for my grandkids to hear when they inherit all my instruments, poses no threat the The Eagles record sales.

[rct]

37 minutes ago, DanvillRob said:

rct, I don't disagree.... I put this up for conversations and opinions.

As I said, my "intellectual property" (actually MY bass playing and singing) were bootlegged and released to two different albums...not only did no one pay me, but no one even asked!

The song that was released by another group wouldn't owe me anything, but the songwriter might have a claim, (our Lead Guitar player).

So, I've been on both sides....and I get permission from anyone in the forum to record their songs...I just think it's the right thing to do.

But I think you can see that a schmuck like me posting a video on YouTube to preserve it for my grandkids to hear when they inherit all my instruments, poses no threat the The Eagles record sales.

Unfortunately it is not about the threat that you or anyone else poses to the Eagles.  There just isn't any other way to do it.  Either everyone and anyone can use your music at any time they choose,  or nobody can at any time for any purpose for longer than <don't know how many> seconds.  It is a complicated situation with really complex answers, but when you see what it takes to monetize music and you acknowledge and understand the ever fewer and fewer people that own the rights to all of the music you could possibly want to use, you can understand why they have to do what they have to do.

rct

 

[DanvillRob]

6 minutes ago, rct said:

Unfortunately it is not about the threat that you or anyone else poses to the Eagles.  There just isn't any other way to do it.  Either everyone and anyone can use your music at any time they choose,  or nobody can at any time for any purpose for longer than <don't know how many> seconds.  It is a complicated situation with really complex answers, but when you see what it takes to monetize music and you acknowledge and understand the ever fewer and fewer people that own the rights to all of the music you could possibly want to use, you can understand why they have to do what they have to do.

rct

 

Of course it's complicated.

Every artist KNOWS others will play, perform & copy their songs.

The line needs to be drawn somewhere...I'm not sure where.

As it stands now, guys can play cover tunes at dance clubs and get paid for it....and guys can cover songs for their "personal  use" and get hammered down.

[Sgt. Pepper]

F Don H. Eagles, last tour had one original member. They milked it and some bought the carton. Sad.

The whole we are touring with one or no original members is a joke and jacksa-ssery I will never support.

Soon the Stones are gonna tour mummies lip syncing Satisfaction.

Edited July 8 by Sgt. Pepper

[Karloff]

13 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

The Eagles without Don Felder bores me. He was the best guitarist they ever had. And yes I know Joe W is in the band.

I agree 💯