axuality Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 The parts are different to some extent, I imagine? The actual work of soldering is how many hours? Maybe 5? At $20/hr = $100. It seems to me that a hand-wired amp should cost very little more than an amp with circuit boards. Why do florists charge more for roses on Valentine's Day? Because they can GET more. The Law of Supply and Demand isn't a law, it's a statement that people will exercise as much greed as they can get away with exercising. And seriously, does a hand-wired amp sound any better than a circuit board amp, or is it an elitist's way of separating herself from the pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr newhaven Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 i think that to a degree...that a handwired amp sounds better...i mean its not gonna make you sound like hendrix or anything but i think if you A/B'd the two amps...one handwired and one not there would be a discernable difference in tone... that being said the idea of hand-wired amps/pedals/etc...appeals to people...myself included for a variety of reasons... guitars are very personal things i feel...i understand that they are tools and that sound comes from your heart/fingers...but its undeniably a very personal thing...amps are just as personal...what is an electric guitar without an amp? a terrible sounding acoustic is what it is! if i had a choice...one amp mass produced (i know most if not almost all are) the other wired by hand for a few bucks more...i would choose the wired by hand for a few bucks more everytime... its not about seperating myself from the pack...(i dont gig...i just play for me) its more about having something that alot of time and care went into the making of it... i mean if you're gonna spend 500 bucks for example on an amp...whats another couple of hundred to have that amp be a little more personalized for you? i know a couple of hundred could be a lot of money...but look at it from a value standpoint...some play guitar for money most because they love it...if that extra couple hundred makes you love your amp that much more...youll play more...and if you play more you'll get better...and even if you didnt get better...i dont think anyone will argue on here that playing more is a bad idea... just my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 You bring up some valid points that I have questioned myself - uhhhh not the roses though. I think it depends really on the amp and the manufactorer. Here are some variables that increase the price, but probably not as much as they cost. usually hand wired amps will use high end materials. While each piece doesn't cost a lot, they do add up. There is a difference between paying 50cents for a cap vs. 12 cents when you have 30 or more in an amp. Likewise $50 for a chassis vs. $85 Bigger companies who offer hand wired amps can usually afford to buy in bulk which lowers the price. If you are getting an amp from a new company/builder they usually cannot afford to buy in bulk unless they go in with some other builders. This includes everything from the chassis, turret borads, caps/resistors, pots and even wire and solder. Another point to consider is that if it is a small start up amp builder they may need to make a living or supplemental income from this so they need to put in the supply cost, man hours, and a certain profit margin. I've tossed around the idea of making some hand wired amps and selling them and here is an example to show you why hand wired amps cost so much: I built my first amp a couple of months ago. It's an easy build based off of an early fender princeton(5F2a chassis), but it is modded to give additional sounds. It has 1 vol, 1 tone, 1 input, and a 3 position mini-toggle switch for the modded sounds. I don't remember the exact costs but the amp chassis, Emminence speaker, and parts cost me around $600 then consider another $200 for the cabinet. I cannot buy in bulk like Fender so the parts cost me a LOT more but I also made sure I used top quality parts like Sprague, Orange drop, and Zoso caps. For me to sell this amp and make a little profit I would probably offer it for $1000. That is a lot for a 15watt amp to be sure, but that's what it cost with around a $200 profit and I don't remember how many hours it took to build, but it was a first build so obviously it took longer than normal. Now, consider the big guys who build hand built amps AND have a name for themselves - Dr. Z and Fuchs come to mind. You are also paying for their name (like a Gibson). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Any of the amp building guys here can give their opinions as to how easy/hard it is to assemble an amp by hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 When something is produced properly by hand I know the price of the end product can seem very expensive; but the time and care that goes into it (in most cases) justifies the cost, in my opinion. After all, these smaller outfits don't churn their products at the same rate that a well known brand does. A hand made Classical Guitar for example costs c.£2000 ($3000 plus), but often it is just one guy making every little nuance just right, and by by God is it worth it when you hear it!!! It could have taken him one month of non stop work. So in this case times £2000 by 12 months, and you only get £24000 as a yearly self employed salary. That is not a lot of money really when you think the skill and talent he/she has. Having said that I do think some people probably take the piss too playing on peoples snobbery! I think this is a great topic for discussion! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr newhaven Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 this is a perfect example of one instance in which i agree with axuality... i have an Ibanez TS808...i could have bought a TS-9 but i didnt want to so there! the TS808 was more expensive...but when youre talking $50 or so...I believe that youre getting a superior product for that little extra increase in price... i love my ts808 and saw this guy a year ago... http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--IBATS808HW now why would i buy a handwired version for DOUBLE the price...when i have something that i am satisfied with already? i wouldnt...because i dont think youre getting double the tone... if i didnt have the pedal already i might be more tempted but having the pedal already and being happy with it made the idea of the HW ridiculous... on a side note if anyone has one...how do they sound?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axuality Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 this is a perfect example of one instance in which i agree with axuality... --Ouch! :) But one poster said "for a couple hundred bucks extra". And Newhaven says double the price. I think it IS more like double the price. If it was just 200 bucks on a 500 amp, I'd consider it. But the Fender Deluxe is like 700 vs. 1200, if I'm not mistaken. Again, ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauline Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Don't forget the R&D $$ divide the costs to a 'small-series-amp or a mega-seller-amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Don't forget the R&D $$divide the costs to a 'small-series-amp or a mega-seller-amp I thought of that before I started my earlier long post but forgot once I started typing. I know a guy here in Colorado who hand builds amps and they are in the Dumble sounding camp, but they are not Dumble clones - he doesn't build a #124 like the rest of us would probably do. He has made design changes that come from his own research and development. He talks to each customer and asks questions about how they play and what they are looking for in their amp, then he adjusts accordingly. I think he gets around $3000 per amp and I think the most he builds is around 30 per year. He also works a full time job. Great point paruwi6172 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr newhaven Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 axuality... i dont hate yoU! haha if i didnt have an amp...and i had the choice between a 500 dollar i think? and a 1200...i might consider waiting two months and just getting the better of the two... i do that with my guitars...rather than spend 700 on a guitar that a few years from now i might sell off to fund another project...and sell off for a loss...id rather wait a few months and get the 1300 dollar guitar and just keep it.... you dig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axuality Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 axuality...i dont hate yoU! haha if i didnt have an amp...and i had the choice between a 500 dollar i think? and a 1200...i might consider waiting two months and just getting the better of the two... i do that with my guitars...rather than spend 700 on a guitar that a few years from now i might sell off to fund another project...and sell off for a loss...id rather wait a few months and get the 1300 dollar guitar and just keep it.... you dig? In the case of a guitar, you're darn right I get it! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Among all my old ones, I now have a Reinhardt 18, 1/2 stack 2x12 closed back. Reinhardt, asked me everthing I wanted in an amp before he built it. I can hear what I paid more to play through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Sorry but I think the initial post is so off I do not even know where to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Sorry but I think the initial post is so off I do not even know where to start. IDK? I think it's a valid statement and question. When you don't know how a hand wired amp is built and the cost of building supplies it's easy to question why they cost so much. One reason we have circuit boards is because it is quicker - much of it is automated so there is less man-hours while actually being able to produce more product. This brings the cost down. I think it's a valid question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I am not saying it is not a valid question it is just so open and involves many variables. Like you pointed out, higher quality components including transformers, chassiss, caps, pots, resistors, cabinet. Who would go through the trouble of hand-wiring using cheap components. Economies of scale, a lot of amps can be made in series, hand-wired not so many. Market niche, people looking for hand-wired amplifiers are usually looking for a Made in USA label. Comparing an amp that was made in lets say Mexico to the same model but hand-wired in the USA then you have a bigger difference. I am not sure what amp is in question but 5 hours? I don't solder that quick. $20 an hour for an amp tech (usually the types that hand-wire quality amps) think again. Amp techs charge $75 an hour here in Nashville. Going back to marketing, like it has already been said. If there are people willing to pay a premium for this kind of amp why not? why would they sell them cheaper? A lot of amps out there are overpriced, so do not buy them, easy fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I've given this some thought about how long it takes to solder an amp by hand - basing it on my limited experience of being in the middle of my 2nd build. There are a few variables between amps and person such as how many parts are on the turret board and how many connection points on the underside of the board. Then how many inputs, pots, output jacks etc... One other variable is how experienced is the person who is building it. The easiest amp to build would probably be something like a Fender Champ. An experienced builder might be able to pull off a complete wiring of a Champ in 5-8 hours. Then add 15-30 minutes for mounting the speaker (not counting the time to build the cabinet), chassis and hooking them up to test it. Perhaps an experienced builder might even be able to build 2 in a 8 hour shift - it still is a lot of time. How much time it takes to build each amp goes up from a Champ as they begin adding more caps/resistors to the board and more pots - vol, tone - bass, mid, treble and presence (to which some of these have parts connected), reverb and controls for that. All of this takes time to build by hand. To me it's easy to see, by a lot of the things mentioned thus far where the increase prices come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Consider my above post, "deleted". I sure didn't mean to make a comment on a public forum and interfere with the private clique here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Consider my above post' date=' "deleted". I sure didn't mean to make a comment on a public forum and interfere with the private clique here.[/quote'] I don't think you interfered and we have never meant to have a private clique. I think most people are unfamiliar with Reinhardt amps so your comment may have seemed.... hmmm I don't know how to say it? distant perhaps or I don't know? Just don't take it that were snobs or were a clique. It could also be that we don't know you yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I don't think you interfered and we have never meant to have a private clique. I think most people are unfamiliar with Reinhardt amps so your comment may have seemed.... hmmm I don't know how to say it? distant perhaps or I don't know? Just don't take it that were snobs or were a clique. It could also be that we don't know you yet? Fair enough. Ask, Murph if he knows me. I have been a member of the two Gibson Forum versions preceding this one, an original first forum member and up to this new one also. Guess I've been hanging out too acoustic lately. I don't post much on, The Lounge because there are so few music related topics. I leaped on this one because it was such and I had knowledge. I guess I expected a question or two. Sorry, for the sour grapes, but when you've been around as long as me as a Gibson forum member and then find out you're thought of as an unknown it stings. Ouch! Like I said, check with, Murph and see if I have any credentials. Maybe, I'll get in the thick of it again providing thats' ok. It just felt as if I had been purposely overlooked. Maybe I'm, a little touchy when it comes to, The Lounge. My bad there. As far as Reinhardt handmade, hand wired, hand built everything including the tolex covering; I thought you amp men would be aware of Bob Reinhardt's amps. They are hot and being reviewed everywhere one looks or reads. I took too much for granted. Didn't mean to get p***ky on it. If Murph ( once, Murphyslaw) vouches for me, I'll come in slow and polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I guess Mark Knopfler is also playing Reinhardt amps too. On local shop in town had/has one. I didn't have time to play it when I was in but he said it was a great sounding amp. If I remember correctly, he said it sits more in the Train Wreck sounding camp (which is sort of like vox in heaven I guess?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Arm Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I know where you can get a 20 watt hand-wired 1x12 combo for $750 + shipping. www.lukerllc.com I will try to post a picture of my head and cab when I can figure out how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/Mar/Reinhardt_sv_18Head_Cab.aspx Here is a review with good detail. By the way, not a Reinhardt salesman, my first low wattage amp ever. I have played my high school 66 Twins and Super Reverb all my life and still do to this day. My back hurts. Right now, I'm using a Morley selector/combiner with a Twin and the Reinhardt, for the best of both worlds. The 18 is modeled after the early Marshall 18 watt, but as the article mentions it goes way beyond just that. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I know where you can get a 20 watt hand-wired 1x12 combo for $750 + shipping. www.lukerllc.com I will try to post a picture of my head and cab when I can figure out how. That's an interesting amp, full features too, even effects loop. I would love to cover one of those with tweed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 The Hall Groper is correct. As usual..... Hand built amps are usually a labor of love built by small companies with small production numbers, so they naturally demand a higher margin. They also use higher quality parts, wire, solder, "everything"...... And they will last for several lifetimes, unlike the Chinese throwaway garbage being built with names like Peavey and Marshall. I think, really...... If you don't understand why better quality amps cost more, maybe you don't hear it, in which case it doesn't matter. To you........ Best of luck. Murph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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