Inquiry--Epiphone vs. Gibson...price/performance/playability...why the gap?

[CodeMonk]

One comment and off to bed...

I dunno who gets it here, but I have Dishnetwork and on one of the channels, there is a program called "Some Assembly Required". On a recent episode, they had a tour of the Gibson factory in Nashville. Was kinda cool. I'm sure it will be on again. I've seen it twice already

[jman99]

Gibson offers Epi's for the same reason Fender offers Squier. You get the basic vibe for less money. And this may be just me but when I play an Epi I think "good for the money" but when I play a Gibson I think "just plain good".

 

Yes there are good Epi's but there are more entry level ones than spectacular IMO. They seem to be targeting two different markets so I guess there is a gap. Plus I bet Gibson pays for all the R&D on both brand names (but this is just a guess).

 

And a final note, I make a decent wage here in the USA so why shouldn't the folks at Gibson? Keeps America strong.

[smokestack]

Ok,

For the first time on this new Epi Forum , I'll paraphrase Gibson's old tagline

 

" A gibson is usually better...but an Epiphone is good enough "

 

 

Sod it...whilst we're here and the forum is new, I'll briefly give my own historical viewpoint.

 

The price of a Gibson guitar over and above that of the equivalent Epiphone is quite easily justified by the additional costs of the materials, labour and finishing techniques.

 

Performance is a different and subjective issue.

Of course Gibsons are usually better... but the unpredictability of wood will only ever let you compare one individual guitar with another.

A particularly good Epiphone will often equal or better an indifferent Gibson in terms of both playability and tone.

[Though you might need a change of pickups in the Epi to make the contest even]

[Nickblues1]

I always thought Epi put out a tremendously better product than Squire does.

[smokestack]

Depends which Epis and which Squiers you're talking about !

[Nickblues1]

Depends which Epis and which Squiers you're talking about !

 

OK ya got me on that one Smoke. I normally only think in terms of the middle of the line of both. Although I do keep one Afinity Squier hanging on the wall. I do take it down once a month to clean it and tune it up so I can play it for a few minutes.

[smokestack]

Yep there are some very ordinary Squiers .

 

..and then you have the Japanese JV series Squiers of the early '80s which, in terms of playability and fit N finish, are as good as any standard Fender production before or since .

[Mescalero101er]

While we're talking about Squiers, most aren't as nice as comparable epis. But...there are some stand outs, even today. When I went looking for a tele (yes I do like teles too) I must have played dozens. But the one a bought was a squier that sounded better (and looked better in my own opinion) than many of the lower model fenders. And was about $500 cheaper. So, jsut goes to show even in a pile of mediocrity, there are still some good ones.

[pohatu771]

One comment and off to bed...

I dunno who gets it here' date=' but I have Dishnetwork and on one of the channels, there is a program called "Some Assembly Required". On a recent episode, they had a tour of the Gibson factory in Nashville. Was kinda cool. I'm sure it will be on again. I've seen it twice already [/quote']I don't know what show it was on, but my dad called me to watch a tour of the Fender plant.

 

I remember the John O'Hurley was the host, and they brought him into the Custom Shop... he used a chain to "wear" a Strat, and his guide said it was worth $3000.

 

So he hit it again and said "now it's worth $6000."

[Lerxst1281733995]

I always thought Epi put out a tremendously better product than Squire does.

 

I have trouble seeing "Fender style" and "Gibson style" guitars in the same general category.. Simply due to differences in design, construction and craftsmanship.. For example, I love Teles... But in no way do I think a plank body with a bolt-on neck is in any way comparable to a Les Paul, with its set-neck, carved top, binding, inlays, etc.... It's like apples and oranges.. So, in turn, I tend to think of Epis as being a step above Squires.. That's not to say that Squire doesn't make some really nice guitars higher up the line, but it's just not the same type of guitar.. I also can't justify spending the kind of money on a Fender that you would on a Gibson... Now, I'm just talking regular production guitars here... Not "Custom Shop" or "Limited Edition" models..

[Eracer_Team]

I still think its bewildering to many novices (and even some experienced) players when they walk into a guitar store and see all the guitars hanging there.

Epip LPs, Gibby LPs, other clone single cuts and all at different price breaks.

It can be and is over powering when faced with all the price tags

 

And its no it’s no different than the other guitars as well.

[layboomo]

Hey Coop nice comparison there....where the Gibby really shines is when you switch back to it the second time and go to the neck pup....there is a mellow sweetness there that is just missing from the EPI IMHO. Aside from that they are fairly close although the EPI just sounds harsher to me.

[layboomo]

Hey Coop nice comparison there....where the Gibby really shines is when you switch back to it the second time and go to the neck pup....there is a mellow sweetness there that is just missing from the EPI IMHO. Aside from that they are fairly close although the EPI just sounds harsher to me.

[superjudge3]

I play Epiphones because:

 

1. I have other things I have to spend money on (like LIVING).

2. They feel and sound damn good to me.

3. I can upgrade them the way I want without spending lots of money.

4. $3000 is just too damn much for a guitar, USA or not!

5. The quality has continually gone up since the early 1990's.

6. It's not that I don't like other brands' guitars, its just that Epiphone's models help me get the sound I'm looking for more so than say Fender, Ibanez, Jackson, Dean, PRS etc....

[Biff]

Have you ever heard of "the gateway drug theory" (eg. smoking tobacco makes you 30 times more likelier to smoke pot)?

I think it applies here, as well.

 

Owning three relatively cheap $250-500 Epiphones (but I do value them very highly) I feel I'm now 30 times more likelier to own an expensive Gibson some day. My dream is to be able to buy a Gibson historic LP which has a price tag I can't justify paying in any way, ever. I won't ever become a professional player or good enough at it that buying one would be justified.

 

Still, like a drug the Gibson LP haunts me.

For me, the Epiphones have fulfilled their evil task as entry level instruments....

[Guest]

 

I have trouble seeing "Fender style" and "Gibson style" guitars in the same general category.. Simply due to differences in design' date=' construction and craftsmanship.. For example, I love Teles... But in no way do I think a plank body with a bolt-on neck is in any way comparable to a Les Paul, with its set-neck, carved top, binding, inlays, etc.... It's like apples and oranges.. So, in turn, I tend to think of Epis as being a step above Squires.. That's not to say that Squire doesn't make some really nice guitars higher up the line, but it's just not the same type of guitar.. I also can't justify spending the kind of money on a Fender that you would on a Gibson... Now, I'm just talking regular production guitars here... Not "Custom Shop" or "Limited Edition" models..

 

[/quote']

Actually the Squier line is to Fender exactly what the Epiphone line is to Gibson, albeit the bottom level of that Epiphone line where the Mexican-made "Fender"-labeled line covers the higher end of the line- A lower cost, budget alternative to the main product line. I know that's difficult for Epiphone owners to grasp but every major domestic manufacturer has one; Gibson with Epiphone, Fender with its Squier and imported Fender lines, Guild and its GAC Guilds, Martin and its Sigma guitars, ESP and LTD, PRS and SE, Takamine and Jasmine,Ovation has a multi-tiered line and even Asian companies like Yamaha make guitars in Japan , China and elsewhere for products at different marketing price points. It's only the Epiphone owners that have a problem with that concept and the reason is that once upon a time Epiphone was both an autonomous manufacturer and then later shared actual production with Gibson products.

When the imported Epiphones were first marketed in the early 1970's Norlin didn't go out of its way to mention that there was no longer any connection to Gibson in the manufacture of these guitars, being quite happy to have the confusion-and it was quite beneficial to have the past association. This was the origin of the Gibson v. Epiphone debate. Because once upon a time Epiphone was a major maker and then later directly related to Gibson, this was exploited to sell Epiphones. It didn't take long for the informed to see the vast differences in the two products but when the current owners took over in 1986 they knew they couldn't cover every market segment with domestic Gibsons but they also knew the magic of having an esteemed name from the past. So they developed the current Epiphone line again relying on people to erroneously associate Epiphone with what it once was-related to Gibson in production. The problem is that Epiphones couldn't have been more removed from Gibson in its production but that didn't stop the Epiphone marketing machine from again exploiting the confusion. Going so far as to "qualify" their Les Paul-like guitars by employing the services of the original endorser-by renting his name. Well, if it's got "his" name on it then it *must* be a *real* Les Paul" ... then also bringing out other familiar Epiphone models from both the Gibson-era such as the Sheraton, Casino, Emperor, Riviera and others and later invoking the "Masterbilt" line for Chinese-made acoustics... it certainly furthered that confusion about what was what.

Looking at the product line, being aware of the past connection between Gibson and Epiphone and of the current relationship, it's very easy to diminish the reality of the differences..especially with the "buy the bargain" mentality of a lot of consumers. This same mentality made Sam Walton a rich man as well as all of his kids. It doesn't have to be a high-priced, high-quality product, it only has to *look* enough like one and leave the customer with a sense of getting more than they paid for you to be successful.

The part I really don't understand though is how rational. reasonable thinking people are unable to make the distinctions beyond visual appearances.. but a lot of that is their wishful thinking at work. There is a desire to make a comparison between Gibson and Epiphone that simply isn't possible. The original question was why the price differential between the two products-the answer is because the two products are so different in every possible way that they aren't in the same marketing niche to begin with. The only similarity between Gibson and Epiphone is in appearance. They use different raw materials, different construction, different hardware, different electronics, different finishing, different skill and craft levels of production and in all of these cases, despite whatever clever explanations Epiphone owners come up with, the Epiphone gets the cheaper of the two. Epiphones are made to visually *resemble* the Gibson product, not to be some kind of over-achieving secret competition. The comparisons will continue because people will want to believe their choice is the wise choice.

I will inevitably be labeled an Epiphone basher because I had the audacity to try to set out the background behind this very dead horse. That isn't true. I think Epiphones are some of the best values in guitars available when taken as guitars. Side by side and one to one with a Gibson as a product there is no basis for comparison so there is no basis for this discussion but it will continue and much of it is Epiphone's fault for its marketing. The reason for the price difference between the two brands isn't that Gibsons are so much more expensive, it's that Epiphones are so much cheaper. Cheaper materials, cheaper hardware, cheaper electronics, cheaper finishes, cheaper labor, cheaper everything. But remember, you didn't pay what a Gibson costs so why should you expect to get a Gibson or even something that closely compares?

 

and Al's your uncle.

[brad1]

Mr. Iconoclast wrote,

" I know that's difficult for Epiphone owners to grasp ....

I will inevitably be labeled an Epiphone basher because I had the audacity to try to set out the background behind this very dead horse. "

 

I know that's difficult for Epiphone owners to grasp???

 

Now that's audacity my friend.

[Guest]

Mr. Iconoclast wrote' date='

" I know that's difficult for Epiphone owners to grasp ....

I will inevitably be labeled an Epiphone basher because I had the audacity to try to set out the background behind this very dead horse. "

 

I know that's difficult for Epiphone owners to grasp???

 

Now that's audacity my friend.

 

[/quote']

It's audacious to point out that in six years of being a contributor to this forum and having been involved in this pathetic discussion literally hundreds of times that a good number of Epiphone owners tend to feel that the business relationship between Fender and Squier is somehow different from the business relationship of Epiphone and Gibson? ...and yes, I'll be labeled an Epiphone basher because I tend to look at any product objectively rather than as if I have an emotional stake in ownership and that any criticism of it will invalidate the product. The whole problem with this discussion is that everyone wants to do the feel goody good good and not do an honest product analysis. Epiphone by its corporate design is a LOW COST ALTERNATIVE to the similar Gibson product. The Epiphone product is created with economy in mind. This is achieved through utilizing cheaper materials, production and finishing procedures, hardware, electronics and labor.

A Gibson is by no means the practical choice for everyone so it's fantastic that a product like Epiphone exists at its price point. It does allow access to a similar to a Gibson product at a far more reasonable cost. The problem begins when suddenly someone says "The Gibson is overpriced and the Epiphone is just as good". Yes, for a guy who plays weekends with his friends in the rec room or at the local Eagles club a Gibson may be too much of a financial commitment so an Epiphone would be perfect. For someone who plays out as his profession and approaches it as a professional he's going to want a professional grade instrument. ...and no, I don't buy the "leave the Gibsons at home to save them and play out with the Epiphones" statement. I didn't invest the money I have in my instruments to leave them nice and pristine so I can take pictures and impress my buddies at the on line forum. I bought them to use and in the thirty seven years I've been playing out I've never had a single instrument stolen or damaged except by an idiot member of my own band so that's a silly argument. Now, if you have something to actually dispute, elaborate upon or add to in this discussion please feel free. Otherwise, I'm going to go catch up with what's going on with Brittany.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[rented]

Leave Britney alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhh the memories......

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTBbHMEs0Uw

[Guest]

Leave Britney alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhh the memories......

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TTBbHMEs0Uw

 

And to think of all the times I watched the "Hit Me Baby" video...alone... with the lights down low...

 

...this is the kind of babe you wake up next to and she's got a knife to your throat asking you "just exactly what did you mean when you said that about my butt?"

 

That's one wackadoodle girlie...

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[rented]

 

And to think of all the times I watched the "Hit Me Baby" video...alone... with the lights down low...

 

...this is the kind of babe you wake up next to and she's got a knife to your throat asking you "just exactly what did you mean when you said that about my butt?"

 

That's one wackadoodle girlie...

 

...and Al's your uncle.

 

Your not kidding' date=' and how. By the way whats the over/under on this chick?

 

Click>[b']The Associated Press[/b]

[Guest]

 

Your not kidding' date=' and how. By the way whats the over/under on this chick?

 

Click>[b']The Associated Press[/b]

 

I don't know but we could start a pool...it's probably a safe bet they're going to be needing to update her "E True Hollywood Story" for one last time....Music hasn't seen this kind of melt down since Courtney...are you old enough to remember Gilda Radner's "Candy Slice" character (a kind of Patti Smith parody)on the original SNL?...life imitates art...

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[rented]

Was real young then but did see them as I got older off old VHS tapes. Courtney was right in my prime though, what a mess! Britney may soon get the prize for most bizzare though.

[daneman]

I still wonder if this whole Brittany debachale isn't just a huge marketing scam.

What if tommorow she suddenly cleaned up her act?

Heck how much is the constant publicity worth to record sales?

I realize it probably isn't but otherwise I guess I'll just be watching the train wreck in slow motion,along with everyone else.You can't seem to avoid the coverage.

I hope she isn't a heroine to a lot of young women,poor role model that she is.

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

Daneman said: You can't seem to avoid the coverage.

 

Sure you can Dane. Shut off the TV and pick up a guitar. My TV gets turned on Monday, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays as required for football season, and any time that I can during the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. I do wish, though, they would put more of the Women's Tournament on. Those young women can BALL. The game is more fundamental, more team oriented, with far, far fewer hotdog idiots showing off a "signature" move.