Inquiry--Epiphone vs. Gibson...price/performance/playability...why the gap?

[primeguy31]

if you tell me how to post pics here, i'll show the whole family!

i have an Epi accoustic, the Epi LP quilt-top, (rather evil-looking), and now the Gibson LP Zebrawood which i should have in a few days, or whenever UPS feels like swingin by, lol...

...i wish i still had my Ibanez accoustic--she was pretty......

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

1st you have to post your pictures to one of the websites that host pictures. If you choose Photobucket (free hosting at photobucket.com) you can simply copy the IMG Code and paste it into the body of your reply. Works best if you leave a blank line above and below the web address. You may not see the actual picture until you either "Post" or "Preview", but you should be able to review before posting. Of course, I'm using Mozilla Firefox which may differ a bit from other browsers.

[primeguy31]

ok, thanks for that. once i get the gib, i'll stage a few pics and get them on for your review.

its quite a unique family, i'll say that.

but for now, i need to hit the sheets, so please feel free to keep adding your 2cents-worth, and i'll be back in the daylite, no doubt with a sore left wrist/hand from playing the Epi LP. (I'm recovering from a multi-year playing drought, recently slaked by my 3yr-old's obsession with his daddy playing his 'special' guitar...oh, kids =D>/ )

[smokestack]

Come on guys, Don't be spoil-sports. It's still fun to watch ;^)

[...and you never know. One day somebody might say something original !]

[Dave]

NOT AGAIN ..

We've been over this 10 times this year' date=' already.

 

[/quote']

 

Yes, we have. My wife was with me when I bought my Epi LP custom flametop. Up on the top shelf at GC was a Gibson LP VOS. She looked around and said "Ooh, isn't that one pretty?". I looked up to see what she was looking at and turned to her and said, "Yep, and it's on sale for $3000." We got the Epi.

 

Many mods and painstaking setups later, my Epi plays, sings, and sustains better than any axe I've owned yet. My Gibson Studio (with the fat neck) doesn't look as good (wine w/ gold hardware) as the Epi and it doesn't quite play as well (IMHO). I actually prefer the Epi, but it is modded. If the Gibby were a flametop with a slim neck, I might rate them the same. That said, I could resell the Gibby for much more money.

 

I don't worry quite as much that the Epi might get stolen on a gig as I would a Gibby. I am extremely particular about any guitar I own, but I know that I can replace the Epi for a lot less money than a Gibby, hence, it's a workingman's axe.

 

I guess there are a lot of comparisons that could be made. I ride a Craftsman $1100 ridng lawn mower instead of one of those $8000 commercial models. It does the job very well and I can buy several for the price of the fancy expensive model.

[Eracer_Team]

This article is getting a bit dated (2004) but on the web page there is a comparo of Gib to Epi... http://www.masht.com/

[brad1]

That article was an interesting read. It shows how far things have come since 2004.

And the most interesting thing is the last two sentences in the article; when the author is trying to make the point about how Epiphones would never be seen in the hands of a great guitarist.

The author asks, " Have you ever seen Slash playing an Epiphone Les Paul? Didn't think so."

;)

[sexygibson]

Have you ever seen Slash playing an Epiphone Les Paul? Didn't think so."

 

Nope; never saw playing an Epiphone. But; when recording started for the first G'N'R album, Slash was playing.................a B.C. Rich.

[Prospero]

That article wasn't really all that great. The author had already made up his mind that the Gibson was better before he started. After all the Gibson was his guitar, while the Epiphone was borrowed from someone else. You can't do an objective review using your own guitar as the example. You spent money on it, so you're not going to say that the cheaper one is better. It'll make you look like an idiot for spending the money on the expensive one.

 

The best point though, as noted by brad below, is the last line. That's Gibson's approach to a T. Get their guitars in the hands of a famous player (maybe Jimmy Page, Slash, or, I don't know... Les Paul) and watch every would-be-guitarist who wants to be like their idol pony up the dough for the same guitar. After all, I'll sound just like my idol if I have the same guitar, right?

 

Never underestimate the power of sponsorship. Pretty much every single Gibson EDS-1275 sold since 1972 is due solely to Jimmy Page.

 

Is one better than the other? Who cares. I guarantee you that you can put the crappiest, cheapest department-store Strat knock-off you can find in the hands of Eric Clapton and he will make it sound better than 99% of guys playing real Fenders out there. I have every confidence that should Warren Haynes happen upon my Epi LP, he'll make it sound better than I could ever make a Gibson Custom Shop LP sound.

 

One of the reasons I bought an Epiphone is because of something someone once told me: a $5000 Gibson will sound like a $5000 Gibson. But a $500 Epiphone can be made to sound like a $2500 Gibson with just a little extra effort. Spend your money accordingly.

 

That's my kick at the carcass.

 

That article was an interesting read. It shows how far things have come since 2004.

And the most interesting thing is the last two sentences in the article; when the author is trying to make the point about how Epiphones would never be seen in the hands of a great guitarist.

The author asks' date=' " Have you ever seen Slash playing an Epiphone Les Paul? Didn't think so."

;) [/quote']

[frenchie1281734003]

Adding to what Sexy Gibson,Brad and Prospero,have said about artist endorsements,a lot if not all is designed,to con us in to the dubious merits of not so very good guitars,and not necessarily from the main manufacturers.Others have a vested interest in getting their product into the hands of artists,and through them to us.We have all been led to believe over the last 20 years or so that the Gibson and Fender product from the 70`s were basically sh*t,and that we should invest our hard earned in fifties and sixties guitars,well that market has now dried up(infact there are probably 2 to 3 times the amount of classic Strats,Tele`s and Les Pauls,around than were actually made).So these so called vintage guitar people,who need to make their dosh,start putting 70`s guitars into the hands of bands,and by Christ the interest rises,and suddenly we are all buying guitars we wouldn`t have touched 10 years ago.For example,Johnny Borrell of Razerlight,plays a couple of Gibson L6S`S,the singers out of both Snow Patrol and Franz Ferdinand,play Tele Deluxe`s,the singer out the Zutons plays a Starcaster!!!.These are just some of the examples,and on the strength of this the vintage market keeps afloat,the main companies can bring out their reissues,and the machine keeps turning.As for Clapton i`ve got this quote from his recently published autobiography,about Christmas 2006."We all had a great time.Melia cooked a delicious lunch,and all day we opened presents.My favourite was a white,Mexican Stratocaster,with a gold anodised scratchplate,that Melia had seen me eyeing up in a local guitar store"!!!.I rest my case.Frenchie.

[brad1]

I was on my way to the local GC today when I heard a very interesting story on the radio. Two local talk show hosts were discussing a recent study done on how people perceived cheap vs. expensive wine. They took very expensive wine and basically put it in cheap bottles and told them it was cheap. For the cheap wines, they put them in expensive bottles and told them it was expensive. Bottom line - Most everyone thought the wine was as good as the bottle price. In other words, if they thought they were drinking the good stuff, than it was good to them. If they thought they were drinking the cheap stuff, then it tasted cheap. The guys on the radio stated that the scientists had discovered that there is a part of the brain that actually "fools" us into believing what our expectations are.

If a person expects a wine to be very good, they will probably think it is. And if they expect, or are told, it is cheap, they will believe it tastes cheap.

I am sure the exact same thing can be applied to most anything of a subjective nature; such as the sound or playability of a guitar. If you believe your guitar sounds great, than it does, TO YOU!! And that is really all that should matter. I believe that's why so many epiphone players love their instruments, and continue to buy more. We know they sound good. And we expect them to. So they do, usually.

Some Gibson owners think Epiphones sound less than good. Or don't , and can't measure up to any Gibson. They expect them to sound less than optimal, so to them they do.

I know others have written some of the same stuff I have here. I just thought this study was so appropriate to what some of us have been talking about here. I think it would be very interesting to conduct an experiment using epis and gibsons instead of the wine. I bet a lot of people would be surprised. A lot of gibson owners that is.

 

Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

[Biff]

Looks like we don't necessarily have to save all of the old forum threads after all, these topics come up so often.... :)

[rented]

[brad1]

Actually, the folks who keep referencing the dead horse idiom are the ones who are beating a dead horse, at this point. That's only my opinion. :)

[Guest]

I realize that I'm only a lowly, inexperienced newbie among all these qualified experts but I really think that the debate over the differences between Epiphones and Gibsons is a red herring. It's intended to distract us from what is really important and that is: Just what is up with that Brittany Spears chickie poo? Is she tottaly whacked or what? All this time you thought KevFedEx was the messed up one and then all this. You know, I was a huge fan of her early work with the Mouseketeers but after "Hit Me Baby One More Time" I really thought she was losing her edge. "Ooops, I Did It Again" was a half-hearted attempt to regain that edge but since then it's been down hill. I heard Phil Spector was going to try to make some use of her most recent recording attempts but we know *that* never works. Maybe she'll get it all together for one last *great* recording...maybe with a little strung together medley at the end and then retire to running a fried chicken restaurant in Louisiana and allow the Hanna Montana machine its full fifteen minutes on TMZ. Just sayin'.

 

...and Al's your uncle.

[rented]

I couldn't agree more Uncle Al. I heard the morning news yet once again and thought "oh no! what will happen to music?!?!?"

 

Only to find relief in the fact that this is all a marketing build up to her simply shifting genres.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eracer_Team]

Well I'm on a number of forums, and dead horses come up all the time... most of the forums have search functions and most people don't use them.

The only forum I know of that doesn't have a search function is www.sewatt.com which is the main forum for the gang that's mod'ing the Epiphone Valve Junior... excelant tube amp I may add...

 

I don't understand not doing a search but... I guess the 'old timers' will have to live with this till the subjects get retold and the people start using the search function. :)

[brad1]

Ok.........then it's agreed.

Let's ask Epiphone for a Brittany Spears forum of our own. :)

[dcooper830]

Check out my Gibson 335 vs. Epiphone DOT video.

 

The Gibson had SLIGHTLY better tone and feel..... but the DOT is very close. I was amazed at how close it was.

 

The DOT is mine and the Gibson belongs to my brother in law.

 

[Notes_Norton]

OK, it's a dead horse, but not to the newbie who asks. We were all new once and probably asked questions that caused others to roll their eyes, but somebody kind probably answered them for us.

 

Model for model, Gibsons cost more because (as it has been stated) that the materials and labor are more expensive. Plus there is some brand recognition going on there too.

 

After saying all that, I would venture to say that the Gibson that costs 3 times as much as the corresponding Epiphone model is probably not 3 times better.

 

Charlie Parker, one of history's greatest sax players often had his horn in a pawn shop because he had an unfortunate addiction. He even recorded playing a plastic saxophone -- and Parker could sound better and play better on that plastic saxophone than over 99% of the sax players on the planet could play on whatever they considered to be the ultimate sax.

 

I am a strong believer that as long as the instrument is adequate, the talent and technical ability of the player is more important than the instrument.

 

My first instrument is Saxophone, and when I was younger, I used to buy nothing but top-of-the-line saxes. As I have matured (P.C. term for getting older), I realize that if I get a good second tier instrument for a third of the price of the top-of-the-line axe, the differences are so slight, the audience cannot tell the difference. Since I play music for a living, and I do one-nighters, the instruments are going to get beat up and need replacing sooner or later.

 

So my tone isn't quite as good. Well, what makes great sax tone anyway, Coltrane? Getz? Turrentine? Lovano? If you played these players back to back to a person who knows nothing about music, the listener would probably assume they were playing entirely different instruments.

 

For guitar tone, what is better, Jim Hall or Johnny Winter? There is a very wide range of good guitar tone. Depends on what you are playing. And don't forget the coloring of your amp and/or pedals. I'd say the audience cannot tell the difference between and Epi and the same model Gibby in the hands of a good guitarist.

 

So I try to find the spot in quality/price where the instrument hits the point of diminishing returns. That point where X number of dollars only brings a fraction of X more in quality.

 

For me the choice was to continue to play a Gibson ES-330 worth up to $5,000.00 for a 40 year old, used guitar or buy a Casino for under $500.00 (I actually paid $425). To me the choice was clear. I can buy 10 Casinos for the price it would take to replace the ES-330, and for me the Casino was the winner.

 

Note, they both have P90s, a great neck, and similar look. The Gibson has a more expensive finish on it, real mother-of-pearl inlays on the neck, better wood (as evident by it's better acoustic sound), a pickguard without the visible second screw head showing, better fretboard wood, and IMHO a nicer looking headstock -- with the word Gibson on it.

 

Does the audience know the difference? They sound pretty close. In fact, perhaps due to the way the guitar was set-up, perhaps due to the fact that the neck joins the body on a different fret (therefore the bridge is in a slightly different position), perhaps due to the newness of the P90s on the Epi, the Casino actually sounds a little better and sustains a little longer when plugged in. However in the acoustic mode, the Gibby sounds better. But the audience is more interested in what I'm playing. They could not be able to tell the differences that I can hear.

 

So the answer is, you have to evaluate your playing skills, how much you value the "designer" name on the headstock, and whether the extra quality of owning the Gibson is worth passing that point of diminishing returns for you. There is no cut and dry right way.

 

If I were to win the state lottery tomorrow, or have a rich, unknown to me relative die and leave me a fortune, I'd still play my Casino and my Grassi Saxophone. I would however, get a vintage, 1960s, King, Silversonic Tenor sax, because with the sterling silver neck and bell I can get a different kind of expression out of the horn - so it would be an addition, not a replacement.

 

After saying all that, there is nothing wrong with wanting a top-of-the-line instrument, even if the price is well past the point of diminishing returns. After all, that is why people buy Armani suits, Gucci handbags, and Lincoln cars when the lower priced alternatives are just as serviceable.

 

If we were on a sax or wind synthesizer forum, and anyone wanted to raise one of those issues, all they would have to do is say Kenny G. ;-)

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[RotcanX]

So, as usual, three pages of rants yet no-one has actually answered the original question, to wit, why the huge price gap...

 

There's this thing called the "Law of Diminishing Returns". Basically, the closer you approach a set goal, the harder (and more expensive) it gets to go further. So, yes, you can get a decent guitar from Epiphone for around $500. It will sound okay, it'll play pretty well, and it'll look real shiny. However, it'll never sound as good or play as well as a $2,500 Gibson, although it might look nicer due to that thick polyester finish it's encapsulated in. Many have gone the upgrade route, changing parts and having stuff like the frets re-worked for better feel, and some have even done pretty danged good refinishing jobs... but even then you are still stuck with the inferior grade woods. Also, once you figure in the time and effort spent to get these Epiphones somewhere close to the Gibson ballpark, well, in many cases you could have gotten the real thing for not much more.

 

Now, is a Gibson five times the guitar an Epi is? Not really; as mentioned, an Epi in the hands of a good player is still going to sound better than a Gibson in the hands of a mediocre player. And at best, it's still only going to sound and play maybe 50% better than the Epi. The thing is, that last little bit of improvement will make the guitar cost five times as much; it's the Law of Diminishing Returns.

 

A similar thing happens, for example, in racing. Time was you could build a 9-second ET BB funny car for around $9,000. However if you wanted to do 8-second ETs you had to spend twice that. Don't hold me to the figures (it was a LONG time ago) but you get the point.

[garyelcrrt1281733995]

Hey, Coop!

 

Really glad to hear that particular video! Both guitars DO sound good! but, for my money - not the same. Not bad, but most definitely NOT the same! The Epi sounds veiled, slightly muffled, or masked, maybe. Perhaps the Gibson has greater treble clarity, or (most probably) both. I hear chords from the Dot, I hear 2, 3, or whatever strings being played in harmony from the Gibson. The Gibson was slightly rude, with a touch of twang, and more aggressive overall, but especially on pick attack, whereas (love using that word!) the Epi came across like a perfectly rolled off rhythm part. I also think it was apparent which guitar was yours - quite a different feel in the necks when you're "ON" right now with less practice time than you'd like with the new axe, isn't there? Again, not bad - just different. Are those stock Epi pickups? Sounded like them to me. You have re-affirmed my belief that they are both capable of making fine music, differently.

[Nickblues1]

Thanks Coop - I wounder how much closer the Dot would be with a set of Gibby 57 Classics in her.

[Eracer_Team]

I know there's a Sax joke in there but I'll let it slide.

Bottom line, if it sounds good play it.

[tom nair]

Well when I decided to go electric again I thought I would just get a strat like I grew up with. Well hell, they are doing the same thing as Gibson. You can find what ever for whatever price from these guy's and get a guitar made from wherever you want. Oh yea, they have a price for everybody. They got models a list long. I got a real headache trying to figure out which guitar would compare to my 82 japan strat. While i was looking I saw and played the Gibsons and epi's. I thought the line was much more clearly drawn between the two as compared to fender. Picked up a beautiful Sheraton, compared it to the Gibby 335 and have never looked back. Epiphones, with or without modifications are one great buy for a guy that dose not happen to have 3000.00 but does have 600.00. Now, when I compare a 600.00 epi to a 600.00 fender, the Epi wins for me hands down.