What's the appeal of an Adi top .. ?

[EuroAussie]

Never played a guitar with an Adi top, but hear here and there that its great for strumming.

 

For those who've had the pleasure, what's the appeal, and does Gibson produce acoustics with Adi tops ?

 

cheers.

[rar]

... does Gibson produce acoustics with Adi tops ?

 

The J-45 and L-00 Legend, some TVs, and some limited runs -- my 60th Anniversary SJ, for example -- have Adi tops. Luthier's Choice AJs typically have Adi tops. Notice a pattern here? When Gibson wants to build an acoustic that sounds as good as it possibly can, "expense is no object", they put an Adi top on it. Why? Market perceptions of Adi vs Sitka might have something to do with this, but the major factor is: Ren loves Adi.

 

-- Bob R

[BigKahune]

It was used in the earlier years - 30s and 40s - so it's got a kind of a vintage cache and sound to it. I like the response - it sounds great whether you strum/pick lightly or more aggressively, and has nice clear tones. It seems like the popularity of adi has been growing over the last decade - it's been offered in some production runs and as an option. Gibby runs some every so often - the Brad Paisley J-45 has a adi top, as well as the J-45 TV and some of the other TV runs. And you can special order it.

[E-minor7]

Well, here's a few words of wisdom picked up from Acoustic Guitar :

 

 

"Adirondackspruce (Picearubens),which is often called Appalachian or red spruce, comes from the Adirondack mountains and Appa lachian region, on the opposite side ofthe continent from where Sitka spruce is found. It grows from eastern Quebec to Nova Scotia, and from the uppermost reaches of New England to North Carolina. This was the spruce species used by both Martin and Gibson during the prewar era, and it is probably the reputation of those guitars alone that prompted its return to the market in theearly 1990s as "reissue mania" set in. Adirondack spruce trees are much smaller than Sitka, and the forests where they grow have been under more pressure from development and logging, while acidrain has also taken a toll." Acoustic Guitar

 

 

WOODYSOUNDS

 

But what do these top woods sound like? When you pose this question to most guitar makers, their first response is, "Compared to what?"As Bob Taylor points out, you cannot talk about the sound of one woodspecies without comparing it to another. "Since over 90 percent ofthe steel-string acoustic guitars in North America have Sitka sprucetops," Taylor says, "that's our most logical frame of reference." Other guitar makers I spoke with agreed, so for therest of this discussion, Sitka spruce will be the baseline. And while other top woods get more press today, luthiers generally agree that Sitka is underrated simply because it has been so widely available and comparatively inexpensive. While it may not be the optimum soundboard material for certain styles of playing, it is highly versatile. Bill Collings, for instance, calls Sitka "the do-everything spruce."

 

Engelmann spruce is often described as softer and warmer when compared to Sitkaspruce. It's lighter in both weight and color and responds well toa light touch. The trade-off, however, is that Engelmann is more easily overpowered by a strong player. Collings feels this wood is "best on smaller guitars with less (string) tension," but it's not unusual to find it used on larger guitars as well. Anyone who works in guitar repair would probably add that Engelmann isn't nearly as tough as Sitka, so it's more easily damaged.

 

Everybuilder I spoke with had nothing but praise for Adirondack spruce.Collings kept stressing its strength, especially with the grain (from one end of a guitar top to the other), while others stressed its higher elasticity, or as Taylor called it, Adirondack's "springy"quality. Bourgeois referred to its "high velocity of sound,"which he says usually results in a guitar with a lot of "headroom,"meaning an expansive dynamic range. But Adirondack is more than just good at being loud; it has a wide tonal range as well. It's therefore not surprising that though Adirondack's most loyal fans are flatpickers, fingerstyle players like Laurence Juber (who has requested Adirondack spruce for the tops of all his Martin signature models) also give it high marks. The only downside to this spruce isits cost, the combined result of current high demand while much ofits original growing range has fallen to urban expansion. Because there is less Adirondack spruce to choose from, the tops often show more variation in grain and color.

 

Of all the spruces, the widest range of opinions I gathered was for European ("German") spruce. This is probably because of the wide geographical territory from which it is harvested (some wood brokers in Europe have been selling instrument-grade spruce for decades and are understandably protective when asked about their sources). Jeff Traugott says he uses German spruce "for clarity and brightness"as well as its "very even grain with less striping." He points out that "it has a clean look that complements the overall design of my guitars," admitting that aesthetics are part of his decision to use it on a vast majority of his instruments. While other guitar makers, Taylor among them, find the tone of European spruce to be very close to that of Engelmann, both Collings and Bourgeois find it has extra brightness in the overtones. In short, everyone agrees that European spruce sounds different from Sitka, but descriptions of what that difference sounds like are varied.

 

Whenit comes to western red cedar, however, guitar builders are generally in agreement, often saying that cedar has "less headroom" or that it "tops out more easily." Cedar gets high marks for fingerstyle guitars, used by players with a lighter touch, because it responds quickly and delivers lots of overtones even at low volume. It's harder to get opinions on redwood, primarily because not many builders use it, but the brittle, easy-to-crack nature of both cedar and redwood is almost always mentioned. Once you get beyond the more traditional guitar designs, however, top woods like cedar and redwood have a wider following. The extra sustain of redwood has been put to good use by McPherson and other builders with complex top-bracing patterns.

 

Draws a rather fine map, doesn't it. . .

 

Keep Things Wooden ~

[TommyK]

The appeal is, you can say, "My guitar has an Adi top."

That's about it.

[wonderful remark]

The appeal is, you can say, "My guitar has an Adi top."

That's about it.

 

 

Exactly......

[BigKahune]

Some people just don't know how to appreciate quiche and cork sniffing. B)

[powerpopper]

From the website of one of the largest Collings dealers in the world, I offer this little nugget:

 

"Face it, Adirondack spruce is a $1000 option and while it is "the Holy Grail of Tonewoods", it is not appropriate for a picker with a light touch. While all us macho types like to think we "need" Adirondack spruce, truth be told, most of us just do not."

[E-minor7]

Personally don't have the finer touch on these differences, might come some day. Back'n'sides are important – we can't and won't run from that. But go out and check things, bring some guitars home and compare with same the strings. Ceder should definitely provide a softer, more sensible response (James Taylor – a very lyrical player – prefers ceder on his Olsons).

 

 

 

" While all us macho types like to think we "need" Adirondack spruce, truth be told, most of us just do not."

 

 

 

Ha ha ha - the joke of the day so far -

[zombywoof]

The appeal is, you can say, "My guitar has an Adi top."

That's about it.

 

Too funny!

 

And yes, I have one guitar with an Adi top - and its a Harmony.

[tpbiii]

After BRW became so rare, Martin did not have anything to con people into paying more money -- so they had to discover adi spruce. (It is amazing how many treasure can be discovered in Martin history. Beats science any day.) That is the appeal to guitar companies' marketing departments.

 

It appeals to guitar owners either because they are weak-willed or because of the way it sounds. Green Adi has a much more brittle sound than green Sitka, and it takes a lot longer -- years -- to break in. In the end, it sounds great -- if you live that long.

[Rambler]

"The appeal is, you can say, "My guitar has an Adi top."That's about it."

 

It's tempting to hammmer the latest in boutique guitar trends. Builders do acknowledge the difference, however, with adi giving up a drier sound, crisp with more headroom. The last time I got to A-B a bunch of Gibbys the adi tops (OJ, 42L) stood out. Mind you they suit the stuff I tend to play (old tyme country and blues). If I were more on the folk/rock side of things, I wouldnt like it so well. So its subjective to the taste of the player, but it do what it do.

[Jack6849]

I have no trouble hearing the difference between Adirondack Spruce (Picea rubens) and other quality guitar top tonewoods. I agree with most quality guitar builders in the market today when they say that different woods yield distinct and predictable tonal quality variations.

 

I guess Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Collings, Goodall, Santa Cruz, and other boutique builders could just be trying to bilk the guitar-playing public in order to line their pockets with money, but my ears do indeed hear differences in the timbre, volume, bass and treble response, and clarity between various tonewoods.

 

Whether these tonal differences are worth paying extra for is a up to each individual player, and it may come down to how important achieving a certain sound for your guitar is to you. If I couldn't hear a difference, I wouldn't pay extra just so I could say I have some trendy top on my guitar.

 

The fact that since 2008 I have paid the price to get two Gibsons, six Martins, and a Goodall acoustic all with Adirondack tops, (while trading away as many acoustics with Sitka Spruce tops), is an indication of how convinced I am that the special guitar sound I'm looking for, and which I hear in a lot of so-called "vintage" Martins and Gibsons is, in some part, based on the materials which were used in the construction of those classics.

 

While there are plenty of cynics and skeptics about the motives of guitar builders out there, I'm a believer that materials can make a discernible difference in tonal quality. Every acoustic guitar has a unique voice unto itself, to be sure, but I'm convinced that the combination of tonewoods chosen as a starting point to achieve a certain voice has a lot to do with the end result.

 

I'm not trying to make anybody see this issue as I do, but I also wouldn't pay extra for a guitar just to try to impress somebody. We all believe what we believe.... I believe the choice of tonewoods has a lot to do with the unique voice of a quality guitar.

 

Thanks,

Jack6849

[bkharmony]

I have a J-45 with an Adi top. It's nice; but no nicer than that guitar would be with a Sitka top.

 

Adirondack Spruce and Brazilian Rosewood, and etc., etc.,etc., are just targets for guitar collectors. A good (or great) luthier can make an amazing instrument without resorting to "Adi top with Brazilian Back and SIdes." That crap is just for collectors.

 

In other words, don't worry about the top wood. The difference is minimal. What matters is how it sounds.

[RASHARU]

In other words, don't worry about the top wood. The difference is minimal. What matters is how it sounds.

 

You're close there BK .. but what really matters is what you do with it. ;)

[rbpicker]

I find it easier to hear the difference between Sitka and Adi tops than I do between Brazilian and Indian Rosewood back and sides. I find new Adi tops to be a bit harsh sounding... more "in your face", which may be the appeal for most flatpickers. Old Adi sounds exceptionally good, but I think old Sitka does as well. I am too old to buy a new Adi topped instrument and wait for it to really come into its own (and can't afford to buy a vintage one that has already).

 

RB

[Martin 1940D28]

They all sound great to me, to each his own. When your life is behind you, and not ahead of you, it's time to start doing some serious thinking! I never thought I would be this old!!!! You'll all be there before you know it. "Martin & Gibson lover for over 55 years." Martin 1940D28.

[E-minor7]

I never thought I , , , ,

 

 

It's not old, it's vintage, , , , and vintage is cool ~

 

 

 

[NevadaPic]

I have no trouble hearing the difference between Adirondack Spruce (Picea rubens) and other quality guitar top tonewoods. I agree with most quality guitar builders in the market today when they say that different woods yield distinct and predictable tonal quality variations.

 

I guess Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Collings, Goodall, Santa Cruz, and other boutique builders could just be trying to bilk the guitar-playing public in order to line their pockets with money, but my ears do indeed hear differences in the timbre, volume, bass and treble response, and clarity between various tonewoods.

 

Whether these tonal differences are worth paying extra for is a up to each individual player, and it may come down to how important achieving a certain sound for your guitar is to you. If I couldn't hear a difference, I wouldn't pay extra just so I could say I have some trendy top on my guitar.

 

The fact that since 2008 I have paid the price to get two Gibsons, six Martins, and a Goodall acoustic all with Adirondack tops, (while trading away as many acoustics with Sitka Spruce tops), is an indication of how convinced I am that the special guitar sound I'm looking for, and which I hear in a lot of so-called "vintage" Martins and Gibsons is, in some part, based on the materials which were used in the construction of those classics.

 

While there are plenty of cynics and skeptics about the motives of guitar builders out there, I'm a believer that materials can make a discernible difference in tonal quality. Every acoustic guitar has a unique voice unto itself, to be sure, but I'm convinced that the combination of tonewoods chosen as a starting point to achieve a certain voice has a lot to do with the end result.

 

I'm not trying to make anybody see this issue as I do, but I also wouldn't pay extra for a guitar just to try to impress somebody. We all believe what we believe.... I believe the choice of tonewoods has a lot to do with the unique voice of a quality guitar.

 

Thanks,

Jack6849

I can't agree more. I guess Red Spruce suits my playing style since most of my acoustics are as such. There is something extra there that I do not hear with Sitka Spruce.

[zombywoof]

I got a funny tradition when I buy a guitar. I just play it and listen and don't worry about the specs. Ain't failed me yet.

[Eddie Rondack]

I can't agree more. I guess Red Spruce suits my playing style since most of my acoustics are as such. There is something extra there that I do not hear with Sitka Spruce.

 

My name is Eddie... and I love addy... ok, step 1 done.

 

I hear the difference and, contrary to what some have implied on this thread, I don't think I'm dumb, misinformed or easily influenced by marketing "schemes" (but please don't ask my wife for her opinion on that).

 

Someone earlier said what counts is how it sounds...

 

Yep, that's it exactly.

[Guth]

zombywoof has pretty much already summed things up nicely from my perspective. That said, I'd love to hear some of those adi-topped Gibsons in action.

 

How about it you adi-fans, got any recordings to share? I'm all ears.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Jack6849]

I, too, pretty much agree with zombywoof's guitar-buying method of playing guitars before I buy them and then selecting only the ones I like the sound of.

 

My recent experiences have led me to actually hear and play so many Adirondack-topped guitars that I preferred to others, which I also auditioned, that I special-ordered two guitars which I obviously could not preview in advance.

 

One was a Gibson "Custom Shop" J-200 Jr. It arrived several months ago from Bozeman.

 

The other is a special order D-45V from Martin. It's due to arrive next February.

 

What gave me the confidence to special order those two guitars (both with Adirondack tops) were recent Adirondack-topped models from those two companies that I had actually had the opportunity to play and hear.

 

A Gibson True Vintage SJ-200 that I bought earlier this year convinced me to take a chance on the special order J-200 Jr.

 

Recent auditions (and purchases) of current-model Adirondack-topped Martins, including a 000-18 Authentic, a D-18 Authentic, a 000-42 Marquis, a D-28 Marquis, and a D-42 Cambodian Rosewood, all combined to give me the courage to special-order a D-45V (with an Adirondack top and wide 2-5/16" bridge string spacing) from Martin, without being able to hear it first.

 

So like zombywoof, and most buyers I know, if I can play a guitar before I buy it, of course that's what I want to do.

 

The fact was that a number of guitars with Adirondack tops, which I had recently auditioned, all shared a unique tonal quality that I loved. This allowed me the confidence to pull the trigger on the two special order (custom-built) guitars. So obviously, that means I'm sold on Picea rubens as a topwood, (but not that anyone else should be).

 

(When it arrived, the Gibson special order J-200 Jr. was everything I had hoped it would be. We'll see how the Martin D-45V sounds in about five months.)

 

I don't make recordings of my guitars at home, but all my Adirondack-topped acoustics have that special tonal quality that I'm looking for when I buy a new guitar.

 

Guth, sorry I don't have any recorded clips to offer. I appreciate your open-minded attitude, and your "I'll believe it if I can just hear it" standard, as also expressed by zombywoof.

 

Thanks,

Jack6849

[Red 333]

I agree that you should evaluate each guitar on its individual merits; you can find some < $500 guitars that'll knock your socks off, after all.

 

That said, of the 20 or so acoustics I have right now, my two favorites have Red Spruce tops.

 

Red 333

[Guth]

Guth, sorry I don't have any recorded clips to offer. I appreciate your open-minded attitude, and your "I'll believe it if I can just hear it" standard as also expressed by zombywoof.

 

Thanks Jack. I've actually owned adi-topped guitars in the past. However, over time they just didn't hold my interest and now they're gone. Different strokes and all that. I'd also refer back to the "guitar makes the man"/"man makes the guitar" conversation that took place around here some time ago. When it comes to guitars, I do my best to try to remain open minded.

 

All the best,

Guth