Why big amps in 2010?

[milod]

Okay, I've been on this forum for a while now - maybe more than a while, depending on one's perspective - and one thing I gotta admit: I don't understand the inclination for huge amps, either guitar or bass, when so many are being run through a PA anyway.

 

In the olden days, we got as big a set of amps as we could afford, put 'em behind us, turned 'em up as far as they'd go, and wail.

 

But the PA was rotten. Tube amp with four or five mike input channels, a bit of reverb as I recall, a "tone" control and master volume. We ran it up until it started to break up through the half-crappy speakers and backed it off a shade and that was it.

 

Nowadays even cheap, lousy PA systems can darned near put a hole in the floor, the ceiling, and make a lotta smaller saloons legal for smoking under our own new state law, anyway, 'cuz you'd be missing two or three walls. Then folks are miking 2,000 watt tube amps (Okay, I'm exaggerating a little there) and then running floor monitors louder than our whole band could sound like in '66.

 

This isn't a question to me of volume - if you wanna hit 150 decibels, fine.

 

It's a question of practicality. Heck, my big tube jobbie is only 120 watts and is far, far more than what I need by any criteria. I got it in the olden days 'cuz the PAs we could afford would handle plenty of voice, but not even a quartet's two guitars, bass and - although not needed in a saloon - it'd handle the drums.

 

A small PA plays loud enough for me and a big PA with speakers under 75 pounds are still possible and with enough power to break beer bottles 20 feet away - and folks tend to run their 90-pound combos or amp speaker cabs through them anyway.

 

So... is it "show?" Is it "the other guy has an X so I gotta have a Y?

 

I don't think this is entirely a matter of my age. As I said, I don't have anything particularly against deafening a crowd now any more than I did at 20. It's more a matter of practicality and weight.

 

I also can see the idea of fog, lights, etc., and even a flamethrower. But...

[NeoConMan]

Need it?

 

No.

 

Very few bands can justify it, but it sure can be fun.

 

I think you're dead-on with the PA thing.

[dem00n]

More tonal options one would say.

Well think of it a little, can you get that "monster" tone from a 100W marhsall out of a 20W fender?

[milod]

Dem...

 

I dunno. But I'll wager if I could have my antique DR back it'd wail thru a pa. 22 watts.

 

m

[dem00n]

Well a wise man did once said a way to get a guitars true "fragile" tone is with small amps...

 

Well i dont really know if Jeff Beck is a wise man.

[NeoConMan]

Few of the really good sounding bar bands run guitars straight off the stage.

The band I play with now and then, lead player now uses the PA for his amp for more control.

Also uses keyboards, talk box, does lotsa vocals, so he needs to be on top of it.

 

The other player played straight out before he left the band, it's the only way I've ever done it.

 

Bass drum, vocals, keyboards (if used) were it for years - everything else was ambient.

 

But as a spectator of a million bar bands, I'll say the PA helps alot.

Bigger venues, gotta have it.

[MojoRedFoot]

It's fun to make the earth shake. I love feeling the vibrations of high gain on an all tube powered stack in my feet. It's more than just hearing your guitar.

[milod]

Mojo...

 

<chortle>

 

If'n you'd played on some stages I have, you'd worry about the DR breaking through the wood flooring anyway.

 

Ah, for the days of blasting.

 

Still, I guess I keep thinking more about blasting a rock audience more than myself. I dunno. As I've written elsewhere, at one point in time I'd even run a turntable through the DR and sit drinking beer and reading in front of it run up to 8 or so. Whew.

 

But as I've also written elsewhere... gee, I'll never forget how horrid we sounded from the back of the room on a reel-to-reel which was all there was... Semi-musical mush and yet on stage it sounded as if we rocked rather well.

 

m

[46 and 2]

Good points M but loud is fun. It's all in what you are going for. According to some on here I am Tool for saying so (thanks again P and J) but a 100W full stack screaming behind ya is a rush, needed? no, but fun none the less.

[L5Larry]

I have gone from using a 150 watt Sunn stack in the seventies, to a 2x12 130 watt combo in the eighties, to a 2x10 65 watt combo in the nineties, and most recently a 30 watt 1x10 combo with the jazz big band (still using the 2x10 65 with the blues band). These changes are due to a combination of factors including (my) age, better PA's, changes in the style of music I play, type of venues, and paid soundmen.

[Twiz]

M, I think I might be going backwards. I've played a 120 watt 5150 head through a 4X12 for around 13 years or so with my band. Lately, I've been searching for a lower wattage tube head (like a Sovtek Mig 50, or a Jet City JCA20H, etc.) and a 2X12 cab. -Still big compared to the little 5 watt amps with big tone, but small compared to 120. I'm just getting tired of carrying my 4X12 up steps, or pushing it awkwardly through people at a bar when I have a gig. I get a great tone out of my little 5 watt Valve Jr. stack, so I don't see why I couldn't get something a little bigger and be able to gig with it. You're right about the PA systems in a lot of places. I just played a show with another band, and their guitar player had some kind of 50 watt Mesa with 1X12. He got a humongous tone from that thing through the PA.

 

I'm still going to hang onto my 1/2 stack though. -My band's bass player, and other guitarist suffer from a condition I like to call 'IdontknowhowloudIamitis'. So I have to match them.

 

Big amps though have their place. There's something about the thud you can get with a 4X12 cab and a powerful head. I think it's that power, and maybe some remnants of 70's/80's arena rock egos keeping them alive. That being said, being loud, -really really loud, kinda rules sometimes.

[heymisterk]

I have only a 50W Mesa combo and I wish I had bought less. That might be partly because I haven't played in a rock band in some time (mostly acoustic for performances). At my home in the 'burbs, I can't even lift the volume past a quarter before I'd get calls from the neighbors. I bought a power attenuator that does a nice job of soaking up the volume while maintaining tone.

[surfpup]

...can you get that "monster" tone from a 100W marhsall out of a 20W fender?

 

No, you can't.

 

I'm a big fan of smaller amps. I have many in the 8-20 watt range. My 18 watt Marshall, for example is a great amp - and plenty freakin' loud! However, when playing next to someone using a 50 or 100 watt Marshall, even at comparable decibel levels, the 18 watter suddenly sounds thinner. It still sounds great, but there is a noticeable lack of bottom end girth that is missing.

 

So back to the question... do you need a big amp for most types of music? Absolutely not. Do you need it to get a certain (relatively heavy) tone? Absolutely.

[MrNylon]

Bass wise, it doesn't hurt to have a little more power to fill out he sound. If you play somewhere new to you, PA's are not always what you hope for. A decent size combo or half stack doesn't hurt. There is a volume control to use.

[MrNylon]

Totally true, my Ampeg is a 350 tube powered head and I used two cabs at a few gigs, but retired the 2X10 and now only use the 2X15. Love the tone so much better and have the preamp gain on 5 and I love that sound.

[iddude]

milod,

 

I always appreciate your posts because IMO, you know what you're talking about based on your experiences as a player. As for this post, I think I fully understand your practical approach to the need for big amps.

 

As for me, I'm an at home player and don't have to move my big PR810H bass cab with Ampeg SVT1000; or my full stack Marshall Mode 4 to any gigging sites. I don't like to play loud; I've already got a little tinnitus thanks to a Ted Nugent concert I attended two years ago! I know I don't need to have such a large set-up, but I do believe though something can be said for the "punch" you can get from the bass response on the bigger cabs; if that's what you like. I'm 6'6" and the guitar head is taller than me, so it's really easy to reach up and make amp adjustments. I think the large cabs and heads look impressive too; which may not mean a thing to many/most guitarists.

 

If I were a gigging player, and I wish I was, I would probably have a set-up more in-line with your thinking. I'm a middle aged guy and wouldn't want to make life more difficult for myself moving equipment around!

 

In the past I have occasionally had some non guitar and guitar playing friends ask me why I have these huge set-ups in such a relatively small room? I've used the analogy that my 71 Dodge Demon with a 340 and Hurst 4 speed can take me to a 100 pretty quick. Do I need to go that fast? No, but the V8 sounds great and if I want to giver, I can! It's all about having some fun! \:D/

 

I'm already looking forward to your next post and responses from the fine folks at the forum!

 

iddude

[ChanMan]

I'm a relatively new bass player and will gladly defer to those with more experience, but I understand that the lower frequencies require larger speakers to push the air. From what I've read, it takes more power to equal the volume of a guitar amp, hence a bigger amp.

 

 

I still say that the gear you use is whatever it takes to get the sound you're looking for.

[Sinner 13]

Why?

Hell, Why not?

Bigger isn't always better, But the Les Paul/ Bassman combination has always been what I wanted.

It just happened to be the ridiculous 135w model.

Lotsa head room.

[MrNylon]

Why?

Hell, Why not?

Bigger isn't always better, But the Les Paul/ Bassman combination has always been what I wanted.

It just happened to be the ridiculous 135w model.

Lotsa head room.

rd_artist Has the same idea as you do using the Bassamn 135. They sound great as guitar gear.

[Sinner 13]

rd_artist Has the same idea as you do using the Bassamn 135. They sound great as guitar gear.

 

yep,

bass channel is super beefy.

The p90's are super raw, but given the ultra linear design, Very defined.

it really makes you pay attention to fretting technique, and attack.

the normal channel still needs some attention, once I get that straight I'll start playing with channel jumping.

pushing the 4x10 "Vintage Blues Breaker" style Cab.

It just drips tone.

oh And did I mention, TONS of head room.

[Hall]

Reinhardt 18 watts. Works out right.

[milod]

I know we were really heavy on the middie range when I was doing my loudest rock stuff. I had the only 12-inch speaker in the bunch and 4-10 cabs were for the bass and other guitar. (Bassman and Bandmaster heads.)

 

But I guess most of my thought isn't speaker size - yeah, I tend to like a bigger speaker for more bottom - but rather sheer volume. A 65-pound PA speaker gets pretty boomy if you want it.

 

Again, I'm not interested about the sound on stage as much as the sound heard by the audience. No matter how big the cabs and how much power you hear in front of 'em, it's not what they hear halfway and in the back of the room.

 

Loud is fine for rock. Up to a certain literal pain and damage point, I'm all for it. My dual 12 combo has so much power, though, that it's too much for the small club and was 35 years ago when I bought it. So here's all this power up front that's 40-percent absorbed in different regions of the sound spectrum by the room and crowd.

 

Yeah, it still may be "loud enough" in the back, is my point, but it ain't what you think you're producing when you're on stage.

 

I guess it just makes more sense to me to have the bigger power where it counts to the audience as much or more than to the players. Yeah, some folks like the pain of standing by the stage or playing on one - we never even thought of ear plugs - but... what about back in the room?

 

Still the bottom line to me is, "Are you better off spending your money on a bigger, better PA or on bigger amps that in theory might be better?"

 

m

[MrNylon]

From the current trend of people coming and going from bands, I'd be more apt to finding an amp that will hold it's own first. Then if you're in a more stable band setting, deal with the PA. Try if you can to do your gigs at places that provide a PA system.

[milod]

Me personally?

 

I've got that big tube jobby that can knock my storebought teeth outa my mouth. In theory it'll even handle a solo gig in a decent size room with separate preamps/channels for mike and guitar. I have a 30-watter acoustic that would work alone in a small room and is designed for mike and guitar.

 

And I have a small PA 'cuz frankly I don't think either of the above is quite rite for a solo or duo gig for reasons described above. Getting speakers up and out, plus the amp itself kinda as a monitor, makes better sense to me for what I've been doing lately.

 

Yeah, I see the point of bands moving in and out and putting cash into an amp rather than a PA- but beyond a certain size/power I still don't quite understand it and tend to think a good-sized PA makes sense after a good "small" amp of some sort. Besides, as I recall the guy with a PA had a bit of leverage on a band. But that's "politics." <grin>

 

m

[NeoConMan]

Playing onstage (sorta rare) I'm always shocked to find my 60 watt Fender Hot Rod DeVille on 2 or 3.

At the house, I usually have the master on 4, with the drive varying depending on whether or not I have a pedal inline.

The drive setting is NEVER above 4, even without a pedal.

And it's "Holy Sh!t!" loud inside the house, pictures hanging crooked...

 

I recently sold my Marshall JCM 800 full stack.

I rarely played it at the house - only if a was feeling like a hooligan - and it NEVER went to a gig.

 

A buddy of mine has been using 800s since 1986, he needed it for a recording project.

But at gigs, it's turned WAY down. Even at BIG gigs.

 

 

The band I play with now and then, they have only one guitar now for the first time in twenty years.

The guitarist that left is a real cave man, louder and louder and louder - but damn he sounded good!

(Using the same Fender amp as me...)

 

EVERYBODY b!tched about the volume, and I always joked that everybody else needed to turn up to keep up.

They couldn't, the other guitar was bottlenecked already, and the drums weren't mic'd except for the bass.

 

 

 

As a side note - takes a lot of power to move some air, and bass is nothing if not about moving air.

Too big on a bass rig?

Turn it down.

 

That's one place where I have no issue with the size of the amp if it will mix cleanly with everything else.