Andy R Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 OK so I have been doing a lot of buying on eBay lately and thinking about the cause and effect it has on guitar pricing. HEre are some thoughts I have and was just wanting to get other peoples opinions. Thought it might be interesting. My first question/comment is has eBay been good or bad overall for the average guitar buyer? My opinion is that it is good that it makes it easier to find that certain guitar, amp, pedal, part etc... without scouring every classified, guitar store, pawn shop, garage sale on earth. So I give it a plus 1 for connivence. My second question/comment is has the connivence taken away the thrill of the chase and the chance of ever getting a bargain on a piece of gear you're looking for? Has this also caused an artificial inflation in value of guitar gear? I think it has. I think this happens for a few reasons. Now before anyone sells anything anywhere they usually check to see about what they are going for on ebay. It has allowed deep pocket vintage collectors and resellers the advantage of basically outbidding anyone therefore accumulating and making what once might have been a reasonably priced fairly easy piece to find much harder to find and at a much higher price. I guess this works both ways as all of the collectors have complained that it has caused the value in vintage guitar investments to go down. I enjoy collecting but only to the point of collecting what I will play. What's the point of having a guitar that just sits in storage or your too afraid to play because you might scratch it? A little side rant...Why are guitars so damn expensive to begin with? I used to work for a few different guitar manufactures and know about how much it costs in parts and labor to build a guitar. I can tell you that when I could buy the most expensive guitar we built (which was Around 3K in 1993) for manufacturers cost I never spent more than 200.00 and this included the shipping costs. This may put me on the poo poo list here but Gibson, Fender, American Charvel, PRS, (insert other Brand name here) are way over priced to begin with. Sorry but Suggested retail of $5,500.00 for a new Les Paul Custom that you might get for 4K is too much for wood metal and strings that was cut on a CNC and slapped together. Sorry to say it but the "made in Japan guitar" and even elsewhere now are or can be built just as well (sometimes better) than what has a "Made in the USA" stamp on it. Gibson and other manufacturers intentionally set a quality limit on import guitars so they won't completely compete with what they are charging more than 3 or 4K more than their branded product. I can still find a decent Epiphone and replace every part on it and give it a good set-up and it will sound, feel and play every bit or better than the same Gibson branded model hanging on the wall for 3K more and I guarantee I won't have anymore than 200.00 to 300.00 worth of parts and maybe a couple hours of work in it. I had a Burny Les Paul Randy Rhoades made by Fernandes and there was absolutely no difference between it and a 74 custom. Other than the logo on the headstock. My intention here is not to be a Gibson basher (this applies to almost every major guitar manufacture) as I love the Les Paul, SG, and Explorers that I own. I have never paid more than 1200.00 for any guitar in my life and if I did I would definitely spend it on a quality Non Major Brand "hand" built to my specs with all the options I want. Check out what you can have built for you by Ed Roman Guitars for at or under the price of a new LP. The problem is not that Gibson or the others charge too much. The problem is we (or at least some of us) will pay that price for it. Until we stop and start spending our money elsewhere these things will continue to be cost bloated and never have any real value in time. I'm open to constructive and well thought rebuttals here. Back to ebay - Some things you (we) can do as a buyer to shift the balance of pricing to our hands ( Sorry eBay sellers) * If the price is close to being right at what it might actually be worth... Don't bid on it. Don't watch it and don't keep going back to look at it. Wait until the auction is seconds away from closing and bid what it is worth. * If the price is too much don't bid on it don't watch it and don't keep going back to look at it. * If the price is set at a reasonable starting price. Don't start bidding on it, don't watch it and don't keep going back to look at it. If you "watch" an item the seller knows and has an Idea of the interest in the auction. If you keep going back to look at it you're also letting the seller know that this is something that a lot of people are interested in. It also let's you know if the seller has hit counts enabled and can put you into panic mode that you might not get it. * Do make an offer on it (That is reasonable) if that option is available. It also doesn't hurt to ask by contacting the seller if they would take a certain amount for it. I realize this will never work because there are just too many people out there that don't know any better or just don't care but we don't have to contribute to it. My tip is if you see something reasonable then bookmark the page. Set yourself a reminder about the item and wait until about 2 minutes before the auction ends. If you can still afford it then be prepared to put in your absolute top dollar for it. Wait until about 10 seconds or less and then bid away. If you win you win if you didn't then you couldn't afford it, it probably went for more than it was really worth, and there will always be another one sometime. If we all practiced this we could begin controlling some of the pricing on e-bay and maybe we will quit seeing Ibanez tube screamers selling for $600 to a thousand dollars. Eventually these people who are amassing these things will realize they have a ton of stuff they don't use and that the market won't pay for what they spent their life savings on. The problem is when you get a person that has a reasonable priced offer and you get people bidding on it the day the auction begins. Sorry buddy but your'e probably not gonna get that 74 Les Paul Custom for $500.00 if you get people bidding for days before the auction ends it just starts a pi$$ing match which is good for the seller but bad for the buyers and again inflates prices. If we could start driving the prices down on e-bay then we could also drive the pricing of new instruments down too. Crazy talk I know.... In summary this is not meant to offend, bash or pi$$ anyone off. If you spent a fortune on your LP and feel that it was worth every penny then I have no problem with that nor am I saying you were wrong. If you're big into selling on eBay sorry as well nothing personal. Again I am just trying to get people thinking and see what the results might be. One site you might check out if you have never heard of him is Ed Romans site. Read his Rants and Technical forums. He may make a lot of the Gibson fans here angry but he makes some strong and truthful arguments concerning brand loyalty and quality for your money. With that I will prepare by putting on my fire retardant suit and see where this goes. Regards all Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I don't find your post 'inflammatory' in the least (Sorry I couldn't resist the pun ) I actually have a similar perspective when it comes to spending 'serious money' on an instrument; ie avoid the big name brands and go custom with a luthier made instrument. Less than say c £1500 I think some of the big names have some incredible value for money instruments. I think you will find there is a sizeable amount of made in Japan fans here too, including myself. I only own Japanese Fenders and became the proud owner of a very collectable piece of Fender history this year getting my dream Strat, a 1983 JV series Squire. it rocks the socks of any other Strat I have played. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis Coll Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 You gotta be careful with the ebay guitars... They have some great guitars at great prices, but some of it are fake... you gotta take a closer look of the pictures and i recommend you to upload the photos to the forum and ask if the guitar is fake before bidding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I typically don't buy instruments I haven't played, so Ebay is a non-issue for me in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 I typically don't buy instruments I haven't played, so Ebay is a non-issue for me in that respect. I agree that you definitely have to watch for fakes. I also agree that a guitar in hand is much less risk to buy since you know what you're getting. That said I have bought 5 guitars off of ebay, 5 Vintage Marshalls, and many vintage effects so far I have had great luck. I think if you're careful and know what your looking for it's not much of a risk. I wold be more careful on buying a multiple thousand dollar guitar especially glue in or neck through on ebay unless the seller had a good return policy. I don't worry much because I can pretty much fix any guitar to play well, just depends on how much time and effort I am willing to put into it. Good points though!!!! Keep them coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Buying guitars online is like buying shoes online, you dont know if you will like them or not till its on your feet (or hands). Unless you have played the guitar before and you like it then go for it, but there is a chance it might be worse or better from the one you played. But im sure you already know this! :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 Buying guitars online is like buying shoes online, you dont know if you will like them or not till its on your feet (or hands). Unless you have played the guitar before and you like it then go for it, but there is a chance it might be worse or better from the one you played. But im sure you already know this! :mellow: Again, I agree and this is especially true and good information for the first time guitar buyer or if you have the option to go somewhere local and play a guitar you have been wanting. This works out better for newer guitars not so much for older to vintage guitars. In the case of the guitars I am generally looking for they are not readily available somewhere local and I'm just not that into "New" guitars. Try finding a 79 - 83 Explorer E2 at the local guitar shop.. or a mid 80's charvel model 1 2 or 3. Like I said I probably wouldn't buy anything that costs more than a couple grand on ebay. keep em coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 If you buy online, you're buying the image and reputation. I've played enough guitars to know there are a lot of pieces of dead wood floating around with strings on them. I'll select the best guitar from those locally available. Harmonicas. kazoos, jaw harps... sure... I'll buy those online. Guitars? Not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 5, 2010 Author Share Posted December 5, 2010 If you buy online, you're buying the image and reputation. I've played enough guitars to know there are a lot of pieces of dead wood floating around with strings on them. I'll select the best guitar from those locally available. Harmonicas. kazoos, jaw harps... sure... I'll buy those online. Guitars? Not a chance. OK Chanman you have made your point. Let's move forward with other parts of the scenario and for you let's put this into terms of a kazoo ( I think I would be less likely do buy a mouth instrument used on ebay) or maybe a vintage fx pedal or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I'll buy pedals online all day long. I just bought a used harmonica... pre WWII Hohner Marine Band. Show me one of THOSE brand new, and I'm in.... Ok.... I'll concede that I might buy a '59 LP off of Ebay given the right set of circumstances ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurray Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I typically don't buy instruments I haven't played, so Ebay is a non-issue for me in that respect. Buying guitars online is like buying shoes online, you dont know if you will like them or not till its on your feet (or hands). Unless you have played the guitar before and you like it then go for it, but there is a chance it might be worse or better from the one you played. But im sure you already know this! :mellow: This is the ideal situation but simply not possible for many of us. I've bought from ebay before, and will do again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 This is the ideal situation but simply not possible for many of us. I've bought from ebay before, and will do again in the future. Yep. I've made the same argument about Guitar Center when the haterz start busting on them.... if it's the ONLY place you can get what you're looking for, it's where you'll go. This just isn't my reality. I have to drive over an hour to get there, but I can lay hands on a Les Paul, or most any other brand. But then... frankly, I typically don't go looking for a brand, I go looking for a sound , a feature which I have yet to see Ebay offer... the ability to let me play the axe prior to purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjay777 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Ebay definitely has its pros and cons... (my biggest peeve is still the seller fees. add paypal on top of that and it gets ridiculous) But as far as buying guitars, personally I've never had an issue with the product, only a few sellers. As long as you know exactly what you're looking for, having a good grasp on the value, and communication with the seller, it will eliminate most of your doubts. Even though I've bought alot of stuff off the bay, I still get paranoid. Buying anything online is dicey, especially if you're spending a crap load of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Natural Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Actually, I've had good luck buying guitars on eBay. Being a lefty, I "have to" buy guitars where I find them. I bought my Epi Joe Pass Emperor II and my Gibby SG Std., both used, on eBay. I take the usual eBay shopping precautions: I look for a really good feedback rating and a lot of sales, I expect to see several good quality pictures, I read the seller's text very carefully for specific info on condition and for suspicious omissions of info that should normally be present, etc. And, yes, I check the seller's spelling and grammar; I'm wary of dealing on-line with illiterates or those too lazy to write good copy. If I'm bidding on something that's going to cost a bit of change, I always take advantage of the "ask the seller a question" feature, even if I think I know the answer. I ask a "smart" (I hope) question to let them know I may know something about that type of item and to see how quickly they respond and how well they communicate in general. I cringed when the Epi arrived on my doorstep. It was offered without a case, and was packaged in a corrugated cardboard, homemade box with no two sides being the same dimension. I'm not even sure there was a right angle on any of the corners. It looked like a cubist sculpture. The box was held together with about ten bucks worth of packaging tape. However, inside, the guitar was well protected with bubble-wrap and was in great condition. It has one small ding, which the seller had photographed and mentioned in his copy, and it's in a finish that is not offered anymore in a lefty, but is the finish that I prefer. I got a great price. I had good luck with the SG as well. It's a bit dinged up, but nothing that wasn't covered in the eBay copy and photos, and nothing serious like a headstock crack. It was the finish I wanted, it had a Bigsby (which I wanted), and I got it for what I think was a good price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrNylon Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I really don't care about eBay. I honestly don't trust paying for a bass I can't see and try out. Their descriptions of product condition leaves a lot to desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Don't you always kind of wonder if they aren't ditching the axe because it doesn't meet their tonal needs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 6, 2010 Author Share Posted December 6, 2010 Don't you always kind of wonder if they aren't ditching the axe because it doesn't meet their tonal needs?? As long as it meets mine I don't give a fook why. Especially with an electric. There are so many things you can do with an electric to tweak tone that I can pretty much make almost anything sound like I want it. Acoustics however are so unique that I wouldn't buy one online. And again this thread was supposed to be more about the aspect of getting a good deal on ebay not necessarily about the pros and cons of buying something online. I know you are just having a great time derailing my thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 As long as it meets mine I don't give a fook why. Especially with an electric. There are so many things you can do with an electric to tweak tone that I can pretty much make almost anything sound like I want it. Acoustics however are so unique that I wouldn't buy one online. And again this thread was supposed to be more about the aspect of getting a good deal on ebay not necessarily about the pros and cons of buying something online. I know you are just having a great time derailing my thread! Threads have a way of wandering.... finding their own path, if you will. How 'bout the Walnut '83 Elite Strat I put an $800 offer on in a $1200 OBO auction. It ended, and the arswipe just relisted it 5 minutes later.... I'm pretty sure, with 5 offers, one was the best... Nah, I'll stick with wood I can touch. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 this may have been said before, way too early to read that long post (sorry). i dont like the stores that if you want to trade/sell the first thing they do is bring up eBay for a value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 My guitar purchase off of ebay was a purchase of opportunity - I wanted a guitar of the week Zebrawood Les Paul. It came up for sale from a reputable music store at a great price and I snatched it up. Since it was genuine and I knew what I wanted, I didn't have to play it first. I'm perfectly happy. I agree with you that ebay has become a gold standard of sorts in determining the value of a lot of things, including guitars and gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Excuse me, what does original post have to do with Ebay? I looks like a Gibson diss-fest to me. Also Ed Roman is a giant windbag, ask anyone who knows anything about guitars, they'll tell you. He rants against Gibson in order to sell the guitars that he endorses, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 First, I think SG fan has a great "Oops, take a look at this again, folks" note above. Second, I've never bought from Ebay. I think it's likely that a good deal might be found on used stuff. I question new stuff unless it's advertised for what it really is. Finally, I think it awfully unfair to say X dollars total cost of production is "it." ... I just dumped a long close-to-life example of revenue streams of just a small service-only biz with one employee and a net revenue typically less than 25 percent of gross in a good month. It took a bit too many words that might have been instructive to some who've never run a biz of their own. Those who haven't don't know, can't know, even if they look at the books. Also, a small luthery has a huge net/gross advantage over a big manufacturer because it can truly use just-in-time purchasing, for example. Advertising is a far different game than for a major manufacturer that has to work toward economics of scale. Whatta you thing the actual cost was for your $40 Levis, for example, let alone your (name the designer) $250 and higher priced jeans? It ain't so simple in any case... Now... let's go back also to my experience in another thread of buying a 1970s "patent infringement" guitar that was clearly marked with the other company's headstock name, but was a virtual clone of a Gibson. Yeah, it cost what, 40 percent less or so than the same design Gibson? What Gibson lost in those days was twofold: First the then-powers that be brought a poor quality rep for over a decade that wasn't largely recovered for a literal generation or more. Second, Ibanez, at least, got a rep for pro-quality guitars at far lower price points than Gibsons. Oh - for what it's worth, Fender's rep in that time period was just as bad or worse. That helped several brands and sub-brands breach the U.S. market 'cuz both Fender and Gibson corporate owners didn't get the guitar biz. Those lessons were learned and both companies have decent, if not great, current reputations for USA products. Yeah, I'll tell you a lotta old timers my age will make similar complaints about current Fenders as we hear here about Gibsons. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMan Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 And again this thread was supposed to be more about the aspect of getting a good deal on ebay not necessarily about the pros and cons of buying something online. Maybe this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjay777 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Maybe this? Pros and cons? WTF was that all about? Hey Chan, quit derailing his thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Yeah, ok, a small paragraph was about ebay but 75% of the post was Gibson bashing followed by many plugs for Ed Roman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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