milod Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Andy... So was I... you don't wanna know some of the grinners I had running through my mind on the strip joing. <grin> Well, maybe you do, but not on a forum such as this, eh? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 First of all it's not a matter of preference in my case and point. And yes and no, you are kind of missing the point. The Asian guitars we see over here that are the lower line brand import of a US company are intentionally not made as well and with lower quality components and QC standards. That's marketing too. Sit by the door at a Guitar Center on a Saturday and see how many US made guitars go out the door as compared to the imports... So If I were a US Guitar company I would make the "Premium Guitars" that cost me more to make due to labor costs overhead etc... More expensive which also implies "Quality" and then have an import line that I can have cheap labor make and have a much higher return on investment. My point was is that If Gibson Allowed the Epiphone Plant to make a "Gibson" using all the same woods, parts, paint, and QC and stamp Made in the USA on the headstock and you took that guitar and set it next to an "Authentic USA Gibson" No one would know the difference and each guitar would be liked or disliked equally between people who tried them based on their opinion. So to your Question if a Japanese guitar cost $3000.00 would I buy it then Yes I would if I wanted that particular Guitar. In my case there aren't that many guitars out there that are actually worth $3,000 to begin with. My main point was that just because something is made in another part of the world doesn't mean the people who make them are less capable than those in the US. It also makes me question this current onslaught of Chinese replicas. Seems that the quality of these are starting to really go up (not all of them but some). How and why is this happening??? Ever heard of the Gray Market? What if I were a company that made oh let's say Guitars... Maybe I'm not all that scrupulous so I have a factory in let's say China that I have make me a consumer friendly priced version of my guitar. Now let's say that I realize that that same company can make exactly the same quality product I can here in the US for about half the price. So I work out a deal where maybe they have everything they need to make the exact same guitar over there and I import them and sell them as my American made brand... Who's gonna know???? Is it legal, no, Does it happen..... I can't say.... I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 I am not missing the point really, all you say in your reply is agreeing with what i say, where a guitar is made and how the market is set up is all about marketing. I own a Chinese Guild acoustic that is really well made and it is because FMIC decided to make a nice and more affordable Guild guitar made overseas, the guitar is still $700 so it ain't cheap. People often forget that "quality" is relative and it is very often associated with price. Example: my Guild acoustic made in China is good enough for me considering the price i paid. I would love to have a Gibson Jumbo but don't want to spend $2000 on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aphawki Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 I actually agree with almost all of this...the only thing that I would say is that Guitar Hero has been kinda good in helping sell at least one Gibson and one Epiphone. I owned Guitar Hero and played it with my kids quite a bit...after I started to actually get good at it I decided to go and get a REAL guitar. Guess what kind I went and bought...Epiphone Les Paul...and not after a couple years of learning how to play it I finally stepped up to a Gibson. I actually agree with everything you are saying when it comes to protecting the rights of the company as well as the designs...but I actually like the ideas that I read about them possibly getting Gibson to ok them before they went out. Oddly enough...guitar players come from all over the place...even Guitar Hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 I am not missing the point really, all you say in your reply is agreeing with what i say, where a guitar is made and how the market is set up is all about marketing. I own a Chinese Guild acoustic that is really well made and it is because FMIC decided to make a nice and more affordable Guild guitar made overseas, the guitar is still $700 so it ain't cheap. People often forget that "quality" is relative and it is very often associated with price. Example: my Guild acoustic made in China is good enough for me considering the price i paid. I would love to have a Gibson Jumbo but don't want to spend $2000 on it. OK ! I Agree with you then!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 I actually agree with almost all of this...the only thing that I would say is that Guitar Hero has been kinda good in helping sell at least one Gibson and one Epiphone. I owned Guitar Hero and played it with my kids quite a bit...after I started to actually get good at it I decided to go and get a REAL guitar. Guess what kind I went and bought...Epiphone Les Paul...and not after a couple years of learning how to play it I finally stepped up to a Gibson. I actually agree with everything you are saying when it comes to protecting the rights of the company as well as the designs...but I actually like the ideas that I read about them possibly getting Gibson to ok them before they went out. Oddly enough...guitar players come from all over the place...even Guitar Hero. I went back and forth a bit with the whole Guitar Hero thing. At first I was a bit snotty about it like a lot of guitar players but then I looked at it from another angle. A Lot of these kids are gamers and that's pretty much all they do. So there is a good chance that if Guitar Hero never came out they may have never even considered guitar even as a hobby. So if this starts the thrill of "Playing guitar" then I say overall it is a good thing. Better guitars the guns and violence. I have seen these kids do some amazing "gaming" on these things and maybe when they reach a point they may decide to pick up a real guitar and see what it is really about. I'm sure if these things were around when I was kid I would have been all over them. As it stands I can't play that game for crap! Andy I sure hope the race car drivers out there aren't being as snotty about the racing simulation games! I do love me some Gran Trismo and NASCAR video game racing!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Some race car drivers use games to learn tracks. I'm 100 percent sure that the paper guitars will lead some children to learn proper guitar. How many of you 'played' with a guitar, not knowing how to play? Life has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalfarm Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Gibson has announced a legal victory in their effort to protect the ownership of some classic guitar shapes. Gibson Guitar Corp. would be irreparably harmed by the continued sale of PAPER GUITARS. Only the kids will suffer and it's those kids that will grow up to be Gibson players. I think Gibson have slightly shot themselves in the foot here. FER GAWD's sake - give me a break. IT's TOO LATE, GIBSON!!!!!! There are COUNTLESS "COPY" guitars out there - same body shape, different Headstock design and logo. I WILL NOT spend big $$$$ to see if my kid has an interest in music, much less buy a GIBSON just to see if he/she does. Too many "look-alike" CHEAPER brands out there, some of which are actually dang-good quality. SOMEOME at GIBBY-Land has lost the BIG long-term picture. Gotta get the kiddies interested in WANTING to learn to play - and "you guys" are THREATENED by a "piece of PAPER"???? IT's NOT a REAL GUITAR! Dang -Spend some of those "profits" on superfulous pursuits by high-priced Lawyers. Sadly, "y'all" can't even get the FryBird Ecchs out the door - if I can't fix it on my own, I don't want it. 2 hour battery.... Seven onboard Computers... Bahhhhh. At Family get togethers, I'm typically surrounded by 5 or 6 youn-uns who are fascinated, and will just sit and listen to me play. At this point, I shift into "teaching Mode" amd let the lil' ones pluck around om beater gits while showing them how to do some simple stuff. THAT's the way you bring up the newer generations of potential owners. IF they truly get "the Bug", they WILL want their own gits. Rant, rant, rant. And Merry Christmas to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Sorry, but as one who has had to personally defend, or aid groups to defend copyright infringement, I'd disagree. If one doesn't get it, that's fine. They're not responsible for the defense of a given franchise. Is doing such always "pretty" to those not similarly responsible? No. There's no question that it can create some hard feelings not only among those more directly involved as well as those who are not. It even can create some PR problems, there's no question of that. But it is how it is. Been there, done that. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Sorry, but as one who has had to personally defend, or aid groups to defend copyright infringement, I'd disagree. If one doesn't get it, that's fine. They're not responsible for the defense of a given franchise. Is doing such always "pretty" to those not similarly responsible? No. There's no question that it can create some hard feelings not only among those more directly involved as well as those who are not. It even can create some PR problems, there's no question of that. But it is how it is. Been there, done that. m I agree Milod but they really should have started this a long time ago when they actually first came out with the shapes and trademarked them at that point, I know they won some battles in the 70's but I don't think it it came down to body shape at the time as much as headstock design and branding logo style trademarks and copyrights Which I believe they got sometime in 1975. Since from what I can tell the earliest trademark on body shape wasn't submitted until 1993 for the Single cutaway Les Paul and even later 90's for the V, Explorer, and SG shape. They let their brand Identity slip away a long time ago and should have done more about it then. Just like Fender too late tuff titty. Because of charvel, PRS, Ibanez, Samick, Dean, Hamer, Jackson, yada yada I believe at the very least the V shape and Explorer Shape have pretty much become Public domain to some degree. I don't think of Gibson V or Gibson Explorer when I think about those guitars ( well I guess maybe explorer since that was their brand ) but V definitely not. I do admit that I will say something is a "Strat" Shape or a "Tele" Shape or "Les Paul" shape or an "Explorer" shape or a " V " shape.... Thing is I would never mistake a Gibson "Explorer" for a Hamer "explorer" or a Dean Explorer or a ESP Explorer Why... Headstock pretty much.... Again, I understand what you're saying but it does make them appear petty and I bet if you could go back far enough some luthier somewhere had gotten pretty close in some respects to these designs. It still almost a patent thing to me as I don't think that it is unreasonable to think that someone would have come up with these primary shapes on their own without ever seeing a Gibson. I still contend a les-paul is a solid dreadnought with a cutaway. I do get what your saying completely. Just playing the devils advocate here a little just for fun, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Andy, yeah, I get it. But the 1970s lawsuit was "patent infringement." As I said, the ES175 was involved in that one and I can guarantee that the headstock definitely states "Ibanez" on at least one of 'em, and other markings are quite clear. As for the LP... Dreadnaught? Naaaah. <grin> Too small. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Andy, yeah, I get it. But the 1970s lawsuit was "patent infringement." As I said, the ES175 was involved in that one and I can guarantee that the headstock definitely states "Ibanez" on at least one of 'em, and other markings are quite clear. As for the LP... Dreadnaught? Naaaah. <grin> Too small. m Yes but was the headstock shaped exactly like a the ES175 headstock? Regardless of the Ibanez brand on it? And was the Ibanez script very close to the Gibson script? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPguitarman Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Paper Jamz is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen. Good for Gibson on winning the injunction. Let them copy other brands if they can, but leave real guitars out of it. Too much fakeness in this world, Guitar hero and now this. Pretty sad... Why don't they just sell Air Guitars in a jar? You open it up and the air that comes out is your space for jamming, LOL. I'm sure there would be some "gullible" parents out there for this marcket nitch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Andy... Look at my current avatar to answer some of your questions. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 25, 2010 Share Posted December 25, 2010 Andy... Look at my current avatar to answer some of your questions. m My eyes are pretty good but not that good! From what I can see they look pretty similar. Maybe I will look one up and get a better look. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 I bet there was a lot of PAPERWORK involved in this dispute.. Blah hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahKeen Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 Ya know, this thread has four pages and at first I thought y'all were having a heated argument regarding which color was better, the pink Hello Kitty or the Justin Bieber hot cherry red. Lol. Personally, I prefer the Jonas black... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbreslauer Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 I saw them and took some pics, very interesting... the headstock: nice font! neck: interesting inlay positions. body: the famous "Green Mod." couldn't find a selector switch though... the best part, from the back of the packaging: Patent Pending. it's also embossed on the back of the body. this model was seriously aged and roadworn, so i passed: i prefer to beat up my own axes. enjoy! Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnastynebr Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 I don't know about holding patents on body shapes and styles, but these fools deserve to get sued. This is one of the worst products that I have seen in my 31 years on this planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornflake Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 How much do those things cost, I bought my 10yr old girl a Rouge 7/8 acou from M/F for $39 there probley not much cheaper than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbreslauer Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 at toys r us here, they're marked $25 each: seems a lot to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 Late to the party - as always, but... I could give a rat's a$$ about the company's copyright issues. If you can't tell the difference between a paper copy, or a Chinese copy, or whatever - well then too bad for you. If you can, don't buy. If you want to be the company's police force, tell them. Lots of folks put Fender decals on their Mighty Mite parts guitars, lots of folks put repro black-faceplates on their silver-faced Fender amps.... Maybe I should care, but I really don't. If someone needs to throw down, well, that's the company's business - not mine. Maybe not your's either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 Well I have to admit they did kinda Screw themselves with the headstock and the logo design looking so close to Gibson.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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