a les paul made in japan is better than one costing 4 times as much?

[stein]

Continuing on, regarding GIBSON guitars, I believe there is still something to them and still a mojo regarding them that even the best builders respect.

 

To me, an instrument is first and foremost a tool. It is an INSTRUMENT to make MUSIC, and the better it does that, the better it is. I do not evaluate a guitar on finish flaws, or if it has finish cracks that develop, or how it is set up from the factory or where it has been. How it feels, how it sounds, and how it looks. And how much it takes to get it in my hands and how much it might cost if I had to replace it. THAT is directly related to how much it takes to build and how good they are at building it.

 

A lot of complaints I hear or read, I just don't get. A flaw on a 1500$ guitar that doesn't affect anything and comparing it to a 3000$ PRS (another fine instrument) doesn't really ring to me. I recently went to GC and saw some of the cheaper Gibsons, going for 650 to 700 bucks, That have most of the important qualities and construction of any other Gibby, and I don't see how Gibsons can be called overpriced. For the money, and for the range of quality you can get for what you want to pay, and for the quality of the guitar as an INSTRUMENT, I don't think anyone is able to do a Gibson type guitar or a copy as well and as affordable as Gibson right now.

[stein]

Beavers make great dams......with built in fish by-ways.....Just sayin'... :unsure: ...

lol..that's an EXCELLENT point. how long and how much would it be to make a dam like a beaver?

[retrosurfer1959]

I didn't say that Japanese guitars were crappy, I actually said that they were a good guitar or even a very good guitar for the cost. I actually like Burny and Orville Les Pauls and I'd buy one in a second over the chinese Epi's available now.

 

What I said about polishing a turd is people buying low end Epi's and other cheap low end guitars than swapping out the electronics and saying that it was better than a Gibson custom shop.

 

I don't really have a problem with a company japan or anywhere else making anything they want as long as they put there own name on it all these fakes and people putting someone else's brand names on things is low life pure and simple. If that was such a great guitar in the original post than why did he feel the need to slide a Gibson logo on it?

 

I try very hard to buy as little as possible if anything from China and other countries that don't respect trademarks and logo's. sure they can produce good products but they also don't care about trademark law or anything else so they make a huge percentage of the fake's in the world. not just guitars, but knife's, watches, jewelry anything that can be copied and sold at high markup is fair game.

 

I was stating my opinion that's all. Buy whatever you want just don't stick somebody ele's logo on it or pretend it's something it's not.

[retrosurfer1959]

Stein I understand and even agree with your comments on China but there method of business should cost them in large trade embargo's before it really is to late. As many know I'm a artist and jeweler and I've had two designs stolen and copied from china's forgers so far. And now we have fake chinese silver and gold. They copy all marking and stamping and yet the content of precious metal is anywhere from 8% to 20% lower than the stampings show so now I have to chemically test all raw silver to make sure it's not a chinese fake before I can even use it just because they can make money by ignoring all applicable laws.

[Duende]

As a general statement I think Japan and America make the best electric guitars... when it comes to branded products. I am not 'conditioned' to buy any make when I buy, my ears and hands do the choosing

I even own one made in Indonesia Guitar! - A Yamaha Silent guitar. It is a Nylon strung electric guitar that sounds better amplified than my $10000 Tony Johnson classical!! (I kid you not) Clips coming soon.

 

re tone and people being all so detailed on the woods etc LOL, often these same people dial in so much gain, whether it is a Gibson Custom Shop or made in China Epiphone, Orville, Burny, Tokai etc etc becomes immaterial in my opinion, as the signal is so saturated, any of the hard work the makers have gone into making that guitar breathe acoustically is buried in a mountain of gain. I often question people going on and on about the importance of the specs of the guitar then hearing what they do to the guitar.

 

 

Matt

[stein]

RETRO:

 

You are right at the problem and the causes of the downfall of the American economy.

 

One thing we MUST keep in mind is that it is not the Chinese citizen or the majority of Chinese poeple that engage and approve of these things. And also, to be clear, it is businessmen on both sides in both countries that are responsible for these "illegal" markets.

 

Deeper, when we look at the market as a whole, and how we have sold our economy out to the Chinese manufacture, it does not benifit us to be sure. We can not blame the Chinese government, or even the US government on this, but rather US companies that have made efforts to profit from the switch to a Chinese based American economy.

 

The problem with holding the whole trade agreement and the Chinese gov. responsible for what Chinese lawbreakers do is that we can not hold ourselves to the same standard. WE have our own laws that dictate to our companies how they should behave in other countries, but they can and do find ways to break the laws. Other counties have had to deal with American companies and American exploitation who do not represent or abide to American laws far longer than we have.

 

And, when it comes to the legal trade agreements, simple embargos present the same impossibilities. We have many trade agreements that we export to other counties that follow the same rules, so if we simply stop allowing American companies to stop sending manufacturing to China, we break the trade agreements that allow us to export and trade with other counties.

 

I think the whole thing comes down to this: unless we can have a standard that isn't based on greed and can treat each other well, there is no way to impose that on other counties that will be of benifit to us.

[stein]

MATT:

 

Your opinions and assesments hold a lot of wieght with me. I have seen what you are capable of, and I also know you make a living at this and you spend a lot of time with a guitar in your hands. I think you have great tone and taste in your playing, and it PROVES you have a certain level of knowledge when it comes to sound quality as well as less of a tolerance for what doesn't get the job done.

 

In short, if you tell me something is good there is something to it regarding reality besides the latest trends or opinions.

 

But, I respectfully suggest you may be overlooking some things regarding the high gain applications and sounds. There are many that study and care about the qualities and tone inherent in the saturation and the distortion of the signal that is very similer to the way one might assess the qualities of the sound of an accoustic. On the surface, to some the guitar and its qualities may be masked to a great degree by the effects of the amp, but to many the guitar is one of the important factors on how it sounds in the first place.

 

Here is an example: supposed you take a guy who has a fender deluxe reverb reissue and a blues junior. Nothing wrong with those, and he might have a few pedals to help him out. You could then have the opposite, where a guy will have nothing less to do with an amp if it isn't a vintage blackfaced or tweed Fender. Nothing wrong with that either, because the quality IS there. but the guy with the reissues and cheaper amps wants to pretend his are as good, and the guy with the vintage stuff want to pretend nothing compares. But, you get a guy who is going to actually use the stuff and have to hear it all the time, then you might get some real opinions on if the cheaper stuff is decent, if the expensive stuff is worth it, and what else might be out there. THAT is going to be the guy who can hear the difference and values between an Epi that cost 200 bones or a Gibby that is 2000 through a high gain setting.

[Duende]

MATT:

 

Your opinions and assesments hold a lot of wieght with me. I have seen what you are capable of, and I also know you make a living at this and you spend a lot of time with a guitar in your hands. I think you have great tone and taste in your playing, and it PROVES you have a certain level of knowledge when it comes to sound quality as well as less of a tolerance for what doesn't get the job done.

 

In short, if you tell me something is good there is something to it regarding reality besides the latest trends or opinions.

 

But, I respectfully suggest you may be overlooking some things regarding the high gain applications and sounds. There are many that study and care about the qualities and tone inherent in the saturation and the distortion of the signal that is very similer to the way one might assess the qualities of the sound of an accoustic. On the surface, to some the guitar and its qualities may be masked to a great degree by the effects of the amp, but to many the guitar is one of the important factors on how it sounds in the first place.

 

Here is an example: supposed you take a guy who has a fender deluxe reverb reissue and a blues junior. Nothing wrong with those, and he might have a few pedals to help him out. You could then have the opposite, where a guy will have nothing less to do with an amp if it isn't a vintage blackfaced or tweed Fender. Nothing wrong with that either, because the quality IS there. but the guy with the reissues and cheaper amps wants to pretend his are as good, and the guy with the vintage stuff want to pretend nothing compares. But, you get a guy who is going to actually use the stuff and have to hear it all the time, then you might get some real opinions on if the cheaper stuff is decent, if the expensive stuff isworth it, and what else might be out there. THAT is going to be the guy who can hear the difference and values between an Epi that cost 200 bones or a Gibby that is 2000 through a high gain setting.

 

Your such a polite man and a pleasure to talk with on here. In that regard I agree; but also think of thepeople that own very good quality guitars only a very small minority can hear the difference? Not that there is anything wrong with that!!! People can own what

they like!

 

Nothing new here but guitarists put way to much responsibilityon their beloved gear and not their beloved fingers and mind. So much of a good sound comes from the musician and not the gear, yet to read guitar forums in general you wouldn't think that. Gibson I think has two very distinct markets in this respect; musicians and consumers.

 

Matt

[Duende]

Ps another thought that came to my mind is that in some genres of rock for example, the sound required isn't a lavish ressonant sound of a top quality material guitar anyway. Lots of rock songs guitar tone's have an 'in your face' attitude :) A question for debate surely is 'can some guitars be too posh sounding for a bands style? Lol

 

Also Horses for courses as they say! I have a few guitars that I have because they don't sustain well - and work with styles that you want the noted to blur less.

 

By the way Andy, great to have you on the discussion!

 

Matt

[Versatile]

A very interesting thread, as to be expected....

 

So far I have played guitars MIA, MIM, MIJ, MIC, MIK, MIUK, MII, MIG

 

And yes it does make a difference in 'feeling at home' with a crafted instrument

 

IMO there may be a tenuous link somewhere down the line as to where the music was composed..... :blink:

 

V

 

[stein]

Your such a polite man and a pleasure to talk with on here. In that regard I agree; but also think of thepeople that own very good quality guitars only a very small minority can hear the difference? Not that there is anything wrong with that!!! People can own what

they like!

 

Nothing new here but guitarists put way to much responsibilityon their beloved gear and not their beloved fingers and mind. So much of a good sound comes from the musician and not the gear, yet to read guitar forums in general you wouldn't think that. Gibson I think has two very distinct markets in this respect; musicians and consumers.

 

Matt

Thats nice of you to say. Thanks.

 

I will say though that for me, when I was playing, I found it much better for myself and the audience to put more effort into the quality of the sound of my stuff rather than what skill I could showcase.

 

I mean, the sound of quality equipment can go further to making a pleasing sound with a simple chord than my skill at being able to dazzle with talent and competence.

 

Just as I have learned that dressing nice when you are ugly can get you further than depending on good looks (says the ugly guy).

[Bob Marsh]

I own an 70's Aria Pro 2 LP knockoff - Hate to say it but it plays as well, or better than any Gibson I've tried and it sounds great - Workmanship, fit and finish is flawless - Price with a beautiful Hard shell case: $300.00 USD I remember when "Made in Japan" was a derogatory comment.

 

B

[Juicefani11]

I will never buy a Les Paul, not even another Epiphone if my Epiphone doesn't work with a normal cable with a normal Fender Hot Rod Deluxe.. I guess i should buy a video camera, take footage of me smashing the damn guitar, and put it on YouTube. My Epiphone The Dot is worse than a Harley Benton Telecaster i bought for 88€...

[Duende]

Thats nice of you to say. Thanks.

 

I will say though that for me, when I was playing, I found it much better for myself and the audience to put more effort into the quality of the sound of my stuff rather than what skill I could showcase.

 

I mean, the sound of quality equipment can go further to making a pleasing sound with a simple chord than my skill at being able to dazzle with talent and competence.

 

Just as I have learned that dressing nice when you are ugly can get you further than depending on good looks (says the ugly guy).

 

I am a brand new fan of Two and a Half Men that and that last comment could be from an episode!!! LMAO

[rct]

I think there is a difference based on generation.

 

I've played exactly one(1) Ibanez in my entire 40 years of guitar playing, played it on my 40th birthday while walking around Sam Ash with The Mrs, it was a Steve Vai with the handle thingy. It was ok.

 

When I was a kid, Ibanez was a copy, and nothing else. You could go into yer local Fender Authorized Dealer and find every color of strat imaginable lying around in piles that you had to step over, 300 bucks in a case out the door. Or, an Ibanez strat for 150 in a case out the door.

 

Nobody, not ever, not in my growing up guitar world, chose the Ibanez, it was a copy. Tokai were an anomoly that didn't last long, no body really bit on them being "better than a Gibson", but you had to admit the name LoveRock was pretty cool. I played those. eh. Never owned one, never wanted one. Later, Ibanez made their own things, the days of the Super Strats, that I never understood. By then it was too late, they were lost to a whole bunch of us because all they ever did was make copies so we never bothered.

 

When I was a kid, there was basically a Strat, a Tele, Les Paul, SG, Firebirds, and in my case, a couple L6-Sii. But they were all made here, we didn't have either the luxury or the pain, depending on yer view of it, of agonzing over a Mexican for a few hunnert less or an Epi for a grand less. Just didn't have that, saved our paper route money and luncheonette table waiting tips and bought the one kind you could have back then.

 

And still the only kind, for lots of geezers like me. No hate, no Anti-Not-American, nothing like that at all, actually more of a "I wonder why people use them OTHER guitars?" kinda thing. Often we as people put much energy into looking for alternatives to the main stream, must be a cheaper or better or something way to do this. When it comes to guitars and amps, I haven't ever done that, the now 60 year old way of doing it a la Precision, Tele, Les Paul, etc, it hasn't ever been improved upon by anyone that I can think of, from cheap asian knockoff to (I know, not popular opinion) the booteekiest of booteek makers. If it's a copy its a copy, don't matter what you paid for it, it'll never be better than the original. It CAN'T be. I think many people overlook the imperfections that actually make the original designs such a joy to master. Neither company made it easy, and engineering, designing, or just plain old prettying out the deficiencies doesn't make anything better, it makes it different.

 

Word: The "lawsuit" that is often used to sell crappy guitars just didn't happen. Much ado about absolutely nothing, it is pretty well documented in Smiths book about CLF and in any Bacon history. Nobody EVER sued anybody because they made "better" guitars, and I really hate it when that is repeated, wrongly, over and over again. You CAN'T sue somebody because they make "better" anything. Chaps my situpon I tells ya.

 

 

Play what you love, love what you play, and don't make up phony stories about it or spend so much energy justifying it. If you just plain old don't want to use my Gibsons and Fenders, go ahead and use something else, there are plenty more out there. More for me, and more for you, that's how I always look at it.

 

rct

[swleary]

It's funny though about this thread. Here's a little secret about me lol

 

I wouldn't touch a Gibson or a Fender from the time I started playing until I think around 1986 when I traded for a Gibson Explorer. It was a short lived relationship but I did love the guitar. I wanted the whole floyd rose stuff out there. I played only washburns and Ibanez's most of my musical obsession. I wouldn't even try any american made guitars because that's what everyone wanted and I never go with what others want. I picked up s Prs SE in 2009 and really didn't like the thing so I traded it in on a 2009 Faded Studio that I liked. I did alot of research on Gibson and versatility. That's why I looked hard at Gibson. So in conclusion, Gibson have a different feel to me then japanese guitars IMO. Just something about them that really shine. Not saying their perfect but pretty darn close to it.

[charlie brown]

I just play the guitars I love, and have owned for decades, mostly.

The newer ones, that I own, are still from my old standby American

companies, even if a few of them, are made in Asia, or Mexico.

Just got a MIM Fender '60's Classic Telecaster, that I absolutely

Love! I may, at some point, change the pickups, to "Vintage Noiseless,"

and add a 4-way switch, as I have done, in my USA "Highway One," Tele.

But, that's just personal preference, not due to any fault, of the

stock pickups. I'm not a "snob," when it comes, to brand names, or

even models. But, I've always just loved, Fender, Gibson, Ric, Gretsch,

and Epiphone guitars. I grew up, and am comfortable, with them,

and (personally) don't see the need to change. I've played a lot of

the newer Asian brands, and even PRS American and Asian. Most were

very Nice guitars, but...I didn't, and don't, feel the need to own one.

But, Heck, that's just me. Other folks, should purchase and play, what

They love! Regardless, of what brand it is, or where it's made.

 

CB

[Geff]

While I agree that Gibson are capable of making outstanding guitars, they have moments of poor quality control and a great example of a Japanese guitar is highly likely to be better than a poor example of a genuine Gibson.

 

You only have to look on this forum, populated by Gibson lovers, to see complaints and evidence that Ginbson do not always get it right.

 

In my honest opinion, the "special" range in particular do not stand up well to the competition in their price range.

 

My epis are not as good as Gibsons in many ways (epi own brand pickups for example are not as good as Gibson )but both of them boast far better finished frets and smoother fretboard wood than any Gibson Special I have ever looked at.

[Duende]

I think you have more chance of convincing a creationist that the earth is older than 10000 years, than convincing a Gibson loyalist that a non American guitars may match or even surpass their beloved choice

[ne14t?]

I think you have more chance of convincing a creationist that the earth is older than 10000 years, than convincing a Gibson loyalist that a non American guitars may match or even surpass their beloved choice

 

Well since the show on the History channel last night was claiming god was, and I quote, an "Ancient Alien" I think them creationist have something to fear!

[SG FAN]

............or convincing a die hard Tokai, Edwards, or Orville fanboy that Gibson might actually still make a decent quality guitar once in a while :)

[BigKahune]

..... great example of a Japanese guitar is highly likely to be better than a poor example of a genuine Gibson.

You only have to look on this forum, populated by Gibson lovers, to see complaints and evidence that Ginbson do not always get it right. .....

.

 

I think you have more chance of convincing a creationist that the earth is older than 10000 years, than convincing a Gibson loyalist that a non American guitars may match or even surpass their beloved choice

 

There are great guitars being made all over the world. As to which are the best, I'll leave you to your opinions. . . . http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/

 

If you like a guitar, buy it.

 

Justifying buying some other brand by trashing Gibson guitars is ridiculous. Come on - a great example against a poor example.

 

Forums for any guitar company are going to have questions about mechanical, hardware, electronic and cosmetic issues.

[Duende]

Well since the show on the History channel last night was claiming god was, and I quote, an "Ancient Alien" I think them creationist have something to fear!

 

he he!! I love Ancient Aliens and all the UFO on things on discovery!

 

Justifying buying some other brand by trashing Gibson guitars is ridiculous. Come on - a great example against a poor example.

 

 

 

Hi Big K

 

"A great example against a poor one", I don't know what you are referring too - sorry to be slow (???) What is a great example? a Gibson, a Japanese guitar, both...completely lost!!!!!

 

Trashing Gibson? only the usual friendly banter - and some made in Japan fans coming out the woodwork but no trashing! Can you point to the comment that made you think that, I am sure there is a misunderstanding. I said earlier that my favourite branded guitars were made by Japan and America. I did kid a few posts above some Gibson devotees...well sheer devotion LOL, but it was written light heartedly, not to be taken as WAR!!

 

 

 

Matt

[BigKahune]

Hi Big K

"A great example against a poor one", I don't know what you are referring too - sorry to be slow (???) What is a great example? a Gibson, a Japanese guitar, both...completely lost!!!!!

 

That "great example against a poor one" is quoted from Geff in my post above (#53). You must've missed it -

.... a great example of a Japanese guitar is highly likely to be better than a poor example of a genuine Gibson.

 

I was simply agreeing with you here (#53) - saying there are great guitars being made all over the world. etc

I think you have more chance of convincing a creationist that the earth is older than 10000 years, than convincing a Gibson loyalist that a non American guitars may match or even surpass their beloved choice

[Duende]

I am useless!!!! completely useless !!!

 

I am logging off and pouring a red wine. I don't think straight this time of night sometimes until I have had a nice glass of the red drink :)

 

Cheers

 

Matt