Not-Too-Late Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 After I bought the Les Paul 100 for my wife, I have done quite a bit of research on Les Paul models. You can't help but fall in love with them. Now years ago, I would differ as I preferred the twang of a Fender Telecaster. Time and preferences change, do they not. Top priced Fender guitars; don't come near in price to the top priced Gibson's. I give up . . . why? Comparing the Epiphone models with the comparable Gibson . . . up to 4x as much? Why? Are Gibson Les Paul's that much better than Epiphone Les Paul’s to warrant such a price difference? Granted, one has to take into consideration the differences in wage scales between Asian countries and our own . . . but again 4x as much? Ok, perhaps there are different woods used, and different electronics, but I honestly can’t see the differences being that drastic. Even Les Paul himself, during an interview, was asked what he thought of the Epiphone line, and his remark was . . . excellent, and that’s coming from the best of the best. Perhaps one of the best reasons, and my only reason for owning a Gibson over an Epiphone would be its resale value years down the road. When I look back at all the guitars I have owned and sold over the years, I would have been able to pay off my mortgage if I had them all today, but at this stage of my life I am not the slightest bit interested in resale value. I probably won’t be around long enough to enjoy the profits anyway. I would really like to hear what you folks understand regarding these differences. This is all something new to me, because when I played years ago, you either had a Gibson or Fender or you had something that would compare to what Mattel would produce, if you know what I mean. Cheers guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaSTuS Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I think Gibsons are way over-priced, they certainly have a much higher opinion of themselves than I have of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigneil Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Wood! The really pricey gibbys are made from genuine Honduras Mahogany. and the asian guitars are built from what is often described as "Eastern Mahogany" which is a wood that has similar tonal characteristics but which could be from several asian unrelated species.... plus the epi electrical parts and hard ware are of much poorer quality, then there is the finish, proper Gibbys have Nitro and epi's have the much cheaper and less labour intensive poly finishes......all that aside though, The build quality of those asian instruments is realy quite good in my experience, and if you are willing to switch out the electrics yourself, or pay a tech to do it. then you are gonna get a Great Axe for a fraction of the cost of a full fat gibby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I thought he was asking why top-end Gibsons are more expensive than top-end Fenders. Still not sure if the price is justifiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrycat Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Q:Why do Nike shoe cost more than Wal-Mart Shoes? A:THE NAME ON THE SIDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 There are experts in marketing, mathematics, and "who's your daddy?" that determine the nominal break point between Price, production, demand and profitability. We don't have to understand it and, like a weatherman, if they are wrong.... they still get paid. Life at the top must be a real hoot. Willy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-Too-Late Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Wood! The really pricey gibbys are made from genuine Honduras Mahogany. and the asian guitars are built from what is often described as "Eastern Mahogany" which is a wood that has similar tonal characteristics but which could be from several asian unrelated species.... plus the epi electrical parts and hard ware are of much poorer quality, then there is the finish, proper Gibbys have Nitro and epi's have the much cheaper and less labour intensive poly finishes......all that aside though, The build quality of those asian instruments is realy quite good in my experience, and if you are willing to switch out the electrics yourself, or pay a tech to do it. then you are gonna get a Great Axe for a fraction of the cost of a full fat gibby. I wonder what exper, whether tree scientist or marketing (hype) expert (?) came up with a possible conclusion that Honduras Mahogany is the best . . . hmmm! I have no idea about Nitro and less labor intensive Poly finishes and what they mean, but I do go by what I see, and what I see looks the same (to me). Electronics. A coil and a load of wire wound around it . . . better perhaps, but how much of that better is marketing experts telling us it's sooo much better. I have to agree with you my friend . . . the build quility of the Asian intruments are excellent. Take my wife's little Les Paul 100. Talk about bang for the buck. I have gotten around the muddy sound with a little patience and time spent tweeking the amp, and I have to say the thing sounds very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-Too-Late Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Q:Why do Nike shoe cost more than Wal-Mart Shoes? A:THE NAME ON THE SIDE Oh there's a whole lot to be said from that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Brand recognition & reputation is a big driver in setting and maintaining price points. Cost of construction and materials, as well as distribution channels, warranty and service, and marketing are the other drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-Too-Late Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 There are experts in marketing, mathematics, and "who's your daddy?" that determine the nominal break point between Price, production, demand and profitability. We don't have to understand it and, like a weatherman, if they are wrong.... they still get paid. Life at the top must be a real hoot. Willy "Who's your daddy" and "demand". Two things that can cause a price to go through the roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not-Too-Late Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Brand recognition & reputation is a big driver in setting and maintaining price points. Cost of construction and materials, as well as distribution channels, warranty and service, and marketing are the other drivers. My brother and I ran a recording studio years ago. I ran the business end and helped out a little in the sound department. The doors were closed a long time ago, but my brother operates it again on a small scale. He bought a Gibson Les Paul for the studio. Reason for the Gibson my brother said. "People will take you more seriously". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookkeeper's Son Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 There is a much simpler answer: It is because the Gibson Corporation pricing scheme works for their bottom line. If there weren't enough buyers for those high-price guitars, they would either be discontinued or the prices reduced. All of the underlying reasons, like prestige, are meaningless, unless you work in guitar marketing. If they felt that the competition was eating into their sales, their first reaction would be to hike the sales figures with advertising, etc. as opposed to lowering prices. In the case of Gibson, they seem to have an interesting market niche that keeps their profits satisfactory (I assume). Remember, we can only guess what a guitar company's cost-per-unit might be, because it doesn't just consist of the materials and labor; other company overhead (advertising, debt, inflated executive salaries, etc.) must be considered. Bottom line: Why are Gibsons more expensive than Fenders? Because they can get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Remember, we can only guess what a guitar company's cost-per-unit might be, because it doesn't just consist of the materials and labor; other company overhead (advertising, debt, inflated executive salaries, etc.) must be considered. The cost of operating Gibson's USA facilities has got to be huge compared to the costs associated with China's factories using supremely cheap labor & having minimal regulations. Frankly, I think we're fortunate to still have the option of buying a wholly 'made in USA' guitar from Gibson. And if you shop wisely, it remains possible to get a reasonable bang for your buck as well (such as the ES-339 or the recent LP Studio Tribute models). Yes, many models are priced way over-the-top for those who have money to burn. But to think that I could plunk down $750 (with a recent GC sale) and buy a cherry sunburst or goldtop LP with real P90s, full maple cap, one-piece mahogany neck, and quality hardware? A lot of guitar for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookkeeper's Son Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 But to think that I could plunk down $750 (with a recent GC sale) and buy a cherry sunburst or goldtop LP with real P90s, full maple cap, one-piece mahogany neck, and quality hardware? A lot of guitar for the money. I don't follow Gibson prices, so I was unaware of that. That's pretty amazing, considering that the same guitar cost roughly half of that in the 60s/early 70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Gibbys have Nitro and epi's have the much cheaper and less labour intensive poly finishes I used to paint my flying model aircraft in Nitro till a better finish came along, and the crap about tone from nitro finishes on the interweb are just not worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I don't follow Gibson prices, so I was unaware of that. That's pretty amazing, considering that the same guitar cost roughly half of that in the 60s/early 70s. It's a darn good deal. We're not talking about a Standard here, but all the good stuff that counts is there on the LP Tribute model. Same with the recently released SG Classic Faded. In this case, you're again getting real P90s, quality electronics & hardware, a bound fingerboard, solid mahogany neck, and headstock with inlaid logo (nice touch) for $699, even before the frequently run GC or MF discounts. Oh, and you don't have to buy a gig bag, either. I have a gloss finish SG Classic, and I can say with certainty that at it's particular price point, the faded version is quite a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I used to paint my flying model aircraft in Nitro till a better finish came along, and the crap about tone from nitro finishes on the interweb are just not worth reading. A model aircraft is a wee bit of a different beast compared to a guitar. Virtually every component will have an impact on the tone of a guitar (especially acoustics). A thick poly finish vs thin nitro will make a difference, however large or small. Do some people go overboard about these differences? Sure, but it's not all crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 ....then there is the finish, proper Gibbys have Nitro and epi's have the much cheaper and less labour intensive poly finishes...... I think it's less about labor and more about time. Nitro takes a month or more to cure and poly is hard as a rock and ready to ship in a few days. That cuts manufacturing time down to a fraction of the time it takes to complete a nitro-finished product, meaning many more units produced per day, i.e. low unit cost. Combine that with vastly lower labor rates and lower material costs and you can sell relatively high quality instruments for relatively low cost. $750 is a great price for a MIA Gibby, but not too many folks are going to cough that up for Johnny's first guitar, especially with his turnover record with video games, sports, iPods, cell phones, and other adolescent toys and electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I used to paint my flying model aircraft in Nitro till a better finish came along, and the crap about tone from nitro finishes on the interweb are just not worth reading. I pretty much agree with this, except perhaps on big jazzboxes and acoutics. All this foolishness about the superiority of nitro finish on solid bodies is BS. The real advantage of nitro is you can buff and blend in finish repairs which can't easily be done with poly. On the other hand, poly is a tough finish and resists scratches and dings - perfect for beginner / intermediate / beater instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookkeeper's Son Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Nitrocellulose lacquers do not cure, but are evaporative finishes, which no matter how long they have been solid, can be redissolved in the original solvents. It is a fast-drying finish developed for the auto industry in the 1920s and used for decades, which means that nitro doesn't "breathe". My understanding is that part of the cost is that Gibson applies several coats of nitro to their higher-end glossy models, using more time, labor and materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanH Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The cost of operating Gibson's USA facilities has got to be huge compared to the costs associated with China's factories using supremely cheap labor & having minimal regulations. Frankly, I think we're fortunate to still have the option of buying a wholly 'made in USA' guitar from Gibson. And if you shop wisely, it remains possible to get a reasonalbe bang for your buck as well (such as the ES-339 or the recent LP Studio Tribute models). Yes, many models are priced way over-the-top for those who have money to burn. But to think that I could plunk down $750 (with a recent GC sale) and buy a cherry sunburst or goldtop LP with real P90s, full maple cap, one-piece mahogany neck, and quality hardware? A lot of guitar for the money. Absolutely! My USA-made guitars (one Charvel and two Gibbys) are affordable because they are stripped down versions. I would guess that applying multiple layers of nitro lacquer and fitting plastic binding requires additional production time and human input that costs significantly more than the CNC cutting aspects. So, I recently paid £616 for my LP Studio '50s tribute Humbucker model and I think that's an excellent price. It has a burst finish, a carved maple cap and Gibby hardware and electronics. At my ability level there's no way I could justify the £1,500+ price tag for a Traditional. To satisfy any lust I may have for shiny bling, I've still got my Epi LP Standard Plus. With a pair of SDs it's 95% of the way there at 1/4 of the cost of the equivalent Gibson. I still like the stripped down vibe, though. So, if you want good value look at upgraded (or pre-upgraded) Epis and stripped down Gibbys. Both are fantastic, IMO. BTW, have you seen the prices of Gibson's new melody maker versions of SGs, Flying Vs and Explorers? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalep Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I pretty much agree with this, except perhaps on big jazzboxes and acoutics. All this foolishness about the superiority of nitro finish on solid bodies is BS. The real advantage of nitro is you can buff and blend in finish repairs which can't easily be done with poly. On the other hand, poly is a tough finish and resists scratches and dings - perfect for beginner / intermediate / beater instruments. Correct. And note that many very nice sounding and expensive guitars are poly these days. Hamer, PRS and Taylor acoustics come tiom mind. It s how it is applied and not the finish material itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrycat Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Also note the difference between polyurethane and polyester finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antwhi2001 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Credit to Leo Fender on the relative cheapness of Strats and Teles. They were designed to be mass-produced in a factory production line setting rather than a craftsmans' workshop, so they can be made quicker and with less-skilled labour. There's less use of wood glues, and the construction involves seperate sub-assemblies which are ultimately brought together. There are over-inflated profit margins on Fender and Gibson top-end models, but if you compare the standard mid-range guitars, Gibsons require more skill and more time to manufacture than Strats/Teles. Doesn't necessarily make them "better" guitars, but it does make them more expensive to build. I personally think that the Gibson faded/satin models are great value, I've owned 3. The only thing they skimp on is the number of coats of nitro, and the logo is a decal rather than inlay. I can live with those features if I get a 30% discount. Nitro is an expensive and hazardous lacquer to work with and I'm sure it's a major component of the total cost to build. Most of the standard Epiphone copies are both slightly different design and totally different materials than the Gibson versions - cheaper wood, lacquer, electrics, fret wire, you name it. The designs are also compromised in subtle ways so they can be built quicker. The only bit I'm not sure about is the Grovers; I've owned several Epis with Grovers and also several Gibsons. They've all worked fine, but the ones on the Gibsons seemed better engineered, so I suspect the ones on Asian Epis may be made locally under license. I would be very interested to see how the selling prices break down into labour, materials, overheads and profit, and I suspect that on the standard models the wood is not the biggest cost factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookkeeper's Son Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The only bit I'm not sure about is the Grovers; I've owned several Epis with Grovers and also several Gibsons. They've all worked fine, but the ones on the Gibsons seemed better engineered, so I suspect the ones on Asian Epis may be made locally under license. AFAIK, Grovers haven't been made in the US for many years. I don't know if there are better Rotomatics that look exactly like cheaper ones..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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