Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I heard Henry J on a little Tech radio show I hear sometimes called "Into Tomorrow" yesterday and he said that the thing that bothered him the most was when they did the armed raid they refused to tell him what they were looking for. All they would tell him was that they had a warrant and when he asked what the what the probable cause was for the warrant they told him that information was seal. Seems that it boils down to a 7mm board having one import tariff classification and 6mm boards having another. I think if the feds case was strong LMI and the acoustic factory would have been raided by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 As a regulatory consultant whose job it is to keep people out of trouble, I can tell you all that Henry sounds like a typical regulation breaker with a guilty conscience. Maybe not, but that's what he's acting like. The feds see this and understand this. They have a sixth sense for BS. That's why they're all over this guy. Because they can see this behavior pattern coming a mile away. The feds are like a pack of dogs. Once he starts showing the signs of guilt, which he is, they're all over him. Just my $0.02, although,as usual, I kind of feel like it's worth $0.04. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 As a regulatory consultant whose job it is to keep people out of trouble, I can tell you all that Henry sounds like a typical regulation breaker with a guilty conscience. Maybe not, but that's what he's acting like. The feds see this and understand this. They have a sixth sense for BS. That's why they're all over this guy. Because they can see this behavior pattern coming a mile away. The feds are like a pack of dogs. Once he starts showing the signs of guilt, which he is, they're all over him. Just my $0.02, although,as usual, I kind of feel like it's worth $0.04. This I can't understand. The guy is silent for two years about the first raid and that is a sign of guilt. He spouts off loudly about the second raid and thaats a sign of guilt. What should he have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 My source indicated that there was a strong feeling Gibson did something wrong - but I got less certainty as to what. m As a regulatory consultant whose job it is to keep people out of trouble, I can tell you all that Henry sounds like a typical regulation breaker with a guilty conscience. Maybe not, but that's what he's acting like. The feds see this and understand this. They have a sixth sense for BS. That's why they're all over this guy. Because they can see this behavior pattern coming a mile away. The feds are like a pack of dogs. Once he starts showing the signs of guilt, which he is, they're all over him. Just my $0.02, although,as usual, I kind of feel like it's worth $0.04. And here lies the real issue? Is this a case of the Feds not recognizing the difference between "probable cause" and "suspicion"? Or perhaps, do they not feel the need to respect it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 My post will probably be deleted like the last ones. IMUHO (my "un-humble opinion")it seems like if the Indian government doesn't give a Rats A.. about the matter why is it that our government watch dogs seem to think that it's their job to do it for them? If India doesn't believe this is a violation, and want to file formal complaints, then who are we to decide that there has been a crime. Would our F&W say that they are just too dumb over in India to understand it properly? That would be rather slanted I would say. guitarest & jannusguy2, not to attack your opinion and defendantly not you personally, from my cheap seat it sounds to me like you two are "angry" for some reason. Do you believe you've been slighted by Gibson or the "establishment" somehow? I grew up during the first wave of that misguided "establishment" feeling in the 60s & 70's. Might have bought into that back then, but then time & some better understanding cured that. It's easy these days to continue to blame businesses for all the ills here. I don't support business that are doing wrong, but I don't think that is that big of a problem with wrong doers vs. the vast numbers of right doers. I still think that our Government has and is working hard to punish business over here for whatever reason. Yes, maybe even if they feel the status quo of their existence from the Tea Party threatens their future cuz it will. "Tea Baggers", if you want call people that believe in a return to our Constitution and the founding values that of our country, are a threat. Gibson contributes to the Tea Party candidates and the last time I checked, that isn't a crime, yet! Remember, those rights that are provided all us to live here as free people, but not for "Free." I for one don't want to give any of that up or continue on a path to the mess that England & much of Europe is in now. No offense to our European members unless they are making the laws in those countries. They've had a 10-15 yr. head start on us moving towards socialism and it isn't all that hard to see it if you study history. In regards to Gibson. I say, if they did something wrong, with our laws or a complaint is filed by some other Government for a violation, then charge them or leave them the hell alone to do business in this country. If it's a "fishing expedition" to look for something else they "think" they've done wrong, then they need the proper agency to be going after them & state what they want. That's due process in my book that again "Tea Baggers" support as our Constitutional rights. Hope this is readable, I've got to get to my businesses & work hard today. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I've been accused, and there's photographic evidence of it, that even when I'm pretty much happy with the world around me, I look grouchy unless I'm smiling by intent. That accusation has been made of me for well over 40 years. As I recall several vids of HenryJ, yeah, I can see where some might interpret his appearance as reflecting "guilt." The problem is, courts aren't supposed to run the law on that sort of grounds. "You look guilty" is even used in ads for pudding, but at a given point it's poor prosecution technique. While I doubt a huge partisan political conspiracy, it's clear to me at this point that it is increasingly becoming partisan in a way that I find of concern. That's largely because of cultural aspects of this stuff that yeah, probably an anti-business bias might appear likely on the prosecution side and an anti-government bias on the increasing defense of Gibson. That widening cultural divide sadly is increasingly part of our politics not just in the U.S. but also in other Anglophone nations as if an influenza virus. I dunno. I find it very difficult to get up in arms about an interpretation of a tiny difference in width of a board that does not apparently cause problems with the exporting nation, nor with the importer, but due to a possible quirk in paperwork might bring into question Gibson's domestic purchase of otherwise apparently legal boards. If one assumes Gibson has paperwork that doesn't meet a standard from making a purchase of boards from an import company - not directly overseas - I find it difficult to understand why the company is being virtually shut down by government intervention. There may be a valid point that there is concern among federal agencies that "tea party" supporters would cut their budget and therefore their jobs. But it seems rather counterproductive to take actions that would further convince even less anti big government voters that the system is systemically flawed. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 ... "Tea Baggers", if you want call people that, believe in a return to our Constitution and the founding values of our country... Actually, the people you are describing are "Libertarians." The Tea Party was founded on the hope for lower taxes, less government spending, less government, and fiscal responsibility- all laudable goals, IMO. The Tea Party has been hijacked by anti-government extremists and Obama haters. m, you may be right in the way that government groups feel threatened by the Tea Party, but the opposing view point may be that the justice department may feel Gibson is in serious violations of importation laws. The amount of finishing may not be as big an issue as the illegality of their actions and long term violations. I'm not trying to defend the actions of the government, just trying to understand them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Actually, the people you are describing are "Libertarians." Yea, that's how I found out about the Gibson Rally being help in Nashville next Saturday. I'm on a libertarian mailing list. Look.... maybe Gibson is guilty of something. If so then let them have their day in court, pay their fine, do their time and get back to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 guitarest & jannusguy2, not to attack your opinion and defendantly not you personally, from my cheap seat it sounds to me like you two are "angry" for some reason. Do you believe you've been slighted by Gibson or the "establishment" somehow? I grew up during the first wave of that misguided "establishment" feeling in the 60s & 70's. Might have bought into that back then, but then time & some better understanding cured that. It's easy these days to continue to blame businesses for all the ills here. I don't support business that are doing wrong, but I don't think that is that big of a problem with wrong doers vs. the vast numbers of right doers. Aster I'm not angry about anything to do with this matter on its merits. If Gibson fxcked up intentionally or otherwise, I'm sure it will come out in the wash. I am disgusted that the issue has become politicized and seems to have become a phony rallying point for people with an axe to grind against a sitting President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm sorry for questioning your objectivity... but isn't your avatar a picture of the sitting speaker of the house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm sorry for questioning your objectivity... but isn't your avatar a picture of the sitting speaker of the house? :unsure: ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm sorry for questioning your objectivity... but isn't your avatar a picture of the sitting speaker of the house? As far as you know. My objective opinion is that Gibson's situation is being co-opted for political purposes either from within or without. I think they allow, encourage and participate in this at their own peril. My opinion of the SOTH (and my avatar) isn't relevant to the topic. Gibson taking sides in the political arena seems awfully short sighted to me. Why do something that risks alienating a large part of your customer base? I already have a laundry list of companies I refuse to support because I find their political activity contrary to peoples' (and my) best interests. I'd hate to add Gibson to that list. The truth of the matter is none of this really matters to me as I've already dropped upwards of 20K on their products and it's highly unlikely I will be buying more any time soon. Further more, I come here to enjoy myself and pass the time not argue politics with people I'd likely avoid in the real world. In other words IRDGAFWYT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I come here to enjoy myself and pass the time not argue politics with people I'd likely avoid in the real world. In other words IRDGAFWYT. Then perhaps you may want to consider using an avatar that is not such an overtly political statement. Maybe even one that was relevant to music for guitars. Just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Then perhaps you may want to consider using an avatar that is not such an overtly political statement. Maybe even one that was relevant to music for guitars. Just a suggestion. You're right of course. That avatar is an old hold over that was meant to annoy a loud mouthed, right wing j*rk *ff on here who has since been banned permanently. Now that there aren't anymore of them around, I'll look for something else to fill that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm thinking that the clown in your former avatar was far too pale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Ziggy... One problem with politics is that increasingly it arises due to significant cultural bias. On "both sides," and as I personally see it, increasingly in all native Anglophone nations, not just the U.S. You can get a little bit of feel for that in this topic here on this forum because what makes sense to one "side" seems an utterly ridiculous position to the opposite pole even when the writer is doing what he can not to sound like a jerk. I'm truly bothered by the "sealed" nature of prosecution materials regardless of anything else. I find it contrary to our collective Anglophone beliefs in jurisprudence. I think even it you're a radical bomb-maker from anywhere on any political spectrum, in our nations you should be raided, arrested, charged and begin due process unless you respond to the raid with armed resistance in which case you've already judged your own actions and must take responsibility for them. But really, if we were Martians looking at those odd humans, wouldn't the current argument seem silly? And wouldn't "the government" seem to act contrary to its own principles since we have a "taking" of valuable material and resources from a company without a specific stated cause against which the company might commence litigation? Frankly I think this is something that should concern everybody on both sides of the "politics" of this particular case. Should "we" have government taking property for years with secret reasons that cannot be litigated and function simply as a theft? If one takes the "it's politics" line which is apparent most of us have, does it benefit either side of the political aisle to think of government agents of the opposite side virtually shutting down their business or institution without any open and public documentation of what they may or may not have done? m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I absolutely agree, m. The government's behavior has been truly bizarre, outrageous, and "un-American." Even if the government finds Gibson guilty of some charges, that does not excuse their activities in an American system of justice. That being the case, if Gibson is guilty, there needs to be some prosecution and due process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 There's a game going on behind the scenes. I have that from a source I trust. I don't know what. I do know that IMHO, Gibson should have been charged or not. At this point it has the appearance of being a fishing expedition, but by somebody who's convinced there is a case that could be prosecuted - prosecuted if something else were found untoward. Again, the question has to do not with illegal trees, but a question of paperwork on the wood itself. With all the wood confiscated, where does that leave Gibson? As I recall the question has to do with roughly 1/8 of an inch in thickness of fingerboard blanks purchased from the importer, not directly from an overseas source. As for the wood itself, one oversize board and photos of others would be sufficient to make a case, if there is a case. Again, I've not only ordered, but literally picked up imported merchandise from a wholesaler that was the wrong size but was labeled "correctly." m but if the paperwork was correct and the wood was the wrong size according to the paperwork, wouldn't this be the importer's fault and not Gibson? ...or are they implying that Gibson falsified documents to get wood that is not of a size that can be aquired by legal means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 One problem with this sort of regulation, IMHO, is that one can be found "guilty" regardless of ignorance of the law, sloppy paperwork, intentional mislabeling of what may or may not be otherwise perfectly legal... And we're not being told what. As a journalist, I find the obvious "raids," but without access to probable cause paperwork, disturbing. Frankly I'd find it disturbing were it to be of that "radical bomb maker" if there were one similarly raided. At this point, it appears to me there's a feeling on the part of prosecution and/or law enforcement that there's some "smoking gun" bit of evidence that might possibly offer a case that could be rationally prosecuted. So they apparently believe they're going back for a second - or third, or fourth - dig while keeping the real hope of a specific bit of evidence secret so Gibson won't know what is going on. I still find that a bit disturbing given that we're not talking about a drug dealer's home or automobile, we're talking about a business with significant employment and international reputation. I understand that there are "agents" at minimum who are convinced they're close to something prosecutable. They may be. But I'm concerned about the time it's taking and the punitive effect on Gibson and its employees. Frankly I think they should have been charged or wood returned and the whole thing dropped. But I get the impression this second major raid came because Gibson wanted its wood back and went to court to get it. Again, this gives the impression that the second raid is punitive, especially if there are no charges and the specific probable cause documents remain sealed. Frankly I think if one forgets the way this has become political, it becomes an across-the-board concern that a government based on the same sort of law "we" Anglophones hold in common might do such a "taking" while keeping the reasons secret. Just by confiscating wood and Gibson computers, the government has functionally issued a horrid "fine" on the company without litigation. I find that of tremendous concern for all of us. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 but if the paperwork was correct and the wood was the wrong size according to the paperwork, wouldn't this be the importer's fault and not Gibson? ...or are they implying that Gibson falsified documents to get wood that is not of a size that can be aquired by legal means? The paperwork was incorrect because the wood blanks were listed as legally finished (legal size) when, according to FnW, the wood is actually illegally finished (sized too large). And yes this should be LMI's fault, but FnW suspects Gibson intentionally mislabeled the wood as legal so it could acquire the illegal larger size blanks. I totally agree with Milod's comment above (#47). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 According to the Lacey Act, and it's amendments (which I read), some of the flowers I buy my gal, the bacon I buy, and the lamb chops I eat, are all in violation of the Lacey Act...........Hmmm................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I'm thinking that the clown in your former avatar was far too pale. But the burst on my SJ is just right, right? Now I gotta go find a picture of Herman Cain in a Bozo wig. That's what you meant I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 But the burst on my SJ is just right, right? Now I gotta go find a picture of Herman Cain in a Bozo wig. That's what you meant I'm sure. Oh, I thought that was H.C. in your Avitar......... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Ok... I'm not a very smart man but I have built a dozen or so guitars and basses. What advantage would there be in Gibson pulling a bunch of shenanigans so they can buy fingerboards that are 1/8th" too thick? The guy running the thickness planer not getting enough hours in? :-k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 What advantage would there be in Gibson pulling a bunch of shenanigans so they can buy fingerboards that are 1/8th" too thick? With the way wood swells & shrinks wouldn't they have to allow for a finished sizing here in the States with the humidity Gibson would maintain manufacturing the guitars? If they can't do a final sizing here, do the fret boards come in with frets installed or does the law allow for that? Who wrote this dang law anyway? Barney Frank (sounds like it could have been stuck in with the excellent fix for the credit cards)? It wouldn't be a finished fret board (in India anyway) either way. After some of the manufacturing that we have done, with a variety of items, I'd hate to rely on things coming in perfect to fit with humidity variables. Just to wonder out loud, could they have been shipped the correct thickness and they swelled up? Man, I saw the bridge of my new Dove rise 3/32" above my fretboard fret tops when the guitar took on humidity (58% measured) to dropping now just in line again. If you see what I mean. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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