Jack Orion Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey, I bought a J45TV this week and it's a great guitar, although the tuners/machineheads are awful, with a lot of 'play' in them making it very hard to tune accurately, which is essential for me as I go from standard, to drop D, to double drop D, to open D or G quite regularly... I've contacted Gibson Europe about it but they just said 'that's why it's true vintage' (which I'm not too happy about, my Martin has vintage style tuners and they're very accurate with no sloppiness at all) so it looks like I'm left with having to change the tuners on a brand new guitar... I'd like to be able to swap them out for something that's a direct replacement, no drilling of holes or mods so I don't affect any future resell value. They are the kluson, 3 on a strip style. Has anyone had any experience with these? http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Golden_Age_Restoration_Tuners_for_Solid_Peghead_Guitar/Golden_Age_Restoration_Bent_Tab_Tuners_for_Solid_Peghead_Guitar.html I like the look but I don't know about the quality - if waverley did a suitable replacement I'd just order them, but I can't seem to find any... Can anyone help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey Ben, good to see you on the Gibby forum, trust youre enjoying your J-45. Have you tried Thomann.com, I bought some Tulips from them for my HB, they could also have the style you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Have you tried to get the dealer to switch out the flawed ones? I'd press for that first. You can't throw a rock without hitting someone online who sells 'authentic', or vintage Klusons. Try Kluson direct too. Ebay, of course, where there are reputable parts guys who'll swap out 'til you get a solid set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'd say the tuners should be right and good on a new guitar. Especially a high end TV. I'd ask for replacements from your dealer. Good luck ( like the name btw: B J R.I.P ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I've contacted Gibson Europe about it but they just said 'that's why it's true vintage' (which I'm not too happy about, my Martin has vintage style tuners and they're very accurate with no sloppiness at all) so it looks like I'm left with having to change the tuners on a brand new guitar... Can anyone help? Good to see you signing up here. Somehow the fact that this was a brand new guitar eluded me when you first posted up about finding the J-45T V over on the AGF. I would not be too quick to accept the "true vintage" response. Hopefully someone from Gibson customer support will see this thread and offer some assistance. They've helped quite a few people here lately with various issues. Not sure if you're allowed to edit the title of your post after it goes up, but that might be worth a shot (the root issue here is that your guitar come with faulty hardware). I also did not see that you had added an entry regarding stewmac before I added my post to your thread. At any rate, if you do end up going down the replacement tuner route, I've heard good things about the Golden Era tuners although I've never used them myself. Again, I'm really glad you ended up going for the J-45 TV. I'm hoping you'll get this matter taken care of quickly and can get back to simply enjoying your new Gibson. All the best, Guth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Orion Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well, I won't say how, but lets say i know for certain that the dealer has contacted gibson and that was gibson's reply. They offered to send one replacement G string tuner, which is obviously useless as you can't change a single tuner when they're attached to a plate... The guitar sounds great, but it's so frustrating having tuners that will sometimes turn a 1/4 to 1/2 turn before there'll be any change in pitch. I know with any vintage style tuner you're not going to get perfection, but I'd have thought that a £2000 guitar should at least have tuners on it which don't wriggle around and are incapable of fine adjustment - if I tune slightly sharp I have to bring the string right back down and slowly tune up without over shooting, and the action is not smooth enough to do that quickly... It'd be impossible to use this guitar live as it is... Must say I'm not very impressed at all... Making me think about returning the guitar to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Can anyone help? Hey,...Yes,...buy a set of Tonepros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Before discarding the tuners, it sounds suspiciously to me that you may have a problem with string binding in the nut slots, rather than a problem with the tuners themselves. This will be particularly noticeable (and annoying) if you change tunings a lot. You'll wind on the tuner, nothing happens, and then it pops to some unexpected pitch. Often, the cure is as simple as cleaning the nut slots, and applying a dab of "Nut Sauce", Graphit-All, or one of the many proprietary nut lubricants. It the strings you are using are other than the light strings specified by Gibson--for example, if you are using medium-gauge strings--they may be binding in the slots, which are usually cut for light strings. It is also possible that the original slots are just not cut properly, and need to be filed. I'm not sure how closely the new Gibson three-on-a-plate tuners replicate the inner workings of the original Klusons. The original Kluson design has some "lash"--freedom of movement--between the worm screw on the tuning post and the spur gear on the string post. String tension actually locks the two gears together, but there is a caveat here: you have to tune UP to pitch--you can't tune down to pitch. For example, if you start out with the first string tuned at its normal E pitch, and want to tune down to D for an open tuning, you have to crank the pitch down to C (or thereabouts), and then tune up to D pitch. Likewise, if you are tuning the same string back up to E, you can't over-crank to F and then back down to E. Before rushing to change out the tuners, I'd do a little bit of experimenting. Having said that, I did change out the original three-on-a-plate Klusons for open-back Grovers on my '48 J-45 back in 1970, because I was struggling a bit with the Klusons. If I knew then what I know now about tuners, I might still have the Klusons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well, I won't say how, but lets say i know for certain that the dealer has contacted gibson and that was gibson's reply. They offered to send one replacement G string tuner, which is obviously useless as you can't change a single tuner when they're attached to a plate... The guitar sounds great, but it's so frustrating having tuners that will sometimes turn a 1/4 to 1/2 turn before there'll be any change in pitch. I know with any vintage style tuner you're not going to get perfection, but I'd have thought that a £2000 guitar should at least have tuners on it which don't wriggle around and are incapable of fine adjustment - if I tune slightly sharp I have to bring the string right back down and slowly tune up without over shooting, and the action is not smooth enough to do that quickly... It'd be impossible to use this guitar live as it is... Must say I'm not very impressed at all... Making me think about returning the guitar to be honest. ( Edit... I was writing this as J45nick was posting the above.. sounds like a good explanation..solution from nick .. to what may be going on ) Jack, I am sorry your having this problem. A new guitar should not have faulty tuners.. full stop. I have recently purchased a Hummingbird TV and the tuners are perfect.. the best tuners I have had on a guitar.... on your J45 TV they should be right and correct. Vintage style tuners or not ... I had a problem with a 'new ' from dealer HB TV last year..and had issues with my dealer not giving/getting the correct information from Gibson.. as Guth stated... customer service have been known to help out in matters posted on this forum.... if they can. May take abit of patience but if you like the guitar, and it sounds as if you do.. hold on a while. I was very impressed with Gibson.. once I managed to make contact with them. It may come down to be the dealers responsibility though. How long has the dealer had the guitar? Are all the tuners not good? Keep watching the forum..I'm sure someone will be able to help. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Orion Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Before discarding the tuners, it sounds suspiciously to me that you may have a problem with string binding in the nut slots, rather than a problem with the tuners themselves. This will be particularly noticeable (and annoying) if you change tunings a lot. You'll wind on the tuner, nothing happens, and then it pops to some unexpected pitch. Often, the cure is as simple as cleaning the nut slots, and applying a dab of "Nut Sauce", Graphit-All, or one of the many proprietary nut lubricants. It the strings you are using are other than the light strings specified by Gibson--for example, if you are using medium-gauge strings--they may be binding in the slots, which are usually cut for light strings. It is also possible that the original slots are just not cut properly, and need to be filed. I'm not sure how closely the new Gibson three-on-a-plate tuners replicate the inner workings of the original Klusons. The original Kluson design has some "lash"--freedom of movement--between the worm screw on the tuning post and the spur gear on the string post. String tension actually locks the two gears together, but there is a caveat here: you have to tune UP to pitch--you can't tune down to pitch. For example, if you start out with the first string tuned at its normal E pitch, and want to tune down to D for an open tuning, you have to crank the pitch down to C (or thereabouts), and then tune up to D pitch. Likewise, if you are tuning the same string back up to E, you can't over-crank to F and then back down to E. Before rushing to change out the tuners, I'd do a little bit of experimenting. Having said that, I did change out the original three-on-a-plate Klusons for open-back Grovers on my '48 J-45 back in 1970, because I was struggling a bit with the Klusons. If I knew then what I know now about tuners, I might still have the Klusons. Thanks for the advice, I'm pretty sure it's not a nut problem though. Regarding the 'tuning up' - I'd normally do that anyway, my complaint is that there is so much play in the tuners that, if I do overshoot, you can't just bring it back a little then tune up, you end up having to wang the tuner back a whole turn and start again... If this is an accurate replication of how the original tuners worked then I definitely will change them for more modern ones, but hopefully with a vintage look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thanks for the advice, I'm pretty sure it's not a nut problem though. Regarding the 'tuning up' - I'd normally do that anyway, my complaint is that there is so much play in the tuners that, if I do overshoot, you can't just bring it back a little then tune up, you end up having to wang the tuner back a whole turn and start again... If this is an accurate replication of how the original tuners worked then I definitely will change them for more modern ones, but hopefully with a vintage look... It's entirely possible it's a manufacturing flaw, if you've eliminated all the similar problems we've seen here. If you get no joy out of Gibson, I'd just bite the bullet and upgrade to Waverly, if you love the guitar enough and are willing to put extra mounting screw holes in. Otherwise, you might try the "new" Kluson-branded (your J-45 probably has the Gibson DeLuxe variant) three-on-a-plate tuners, which should be a drop-in. Or, the Tonepros/Kluson version of the same. You'll find both on wdmusic.com. I'll get others to explain the differences between those two, as it's far too complicated for my simple brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Orion Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 It's entirely possible it's a manufacturing flaw, if you've eliminated all the similar problems we've seen here. If you get no joy out of Gibson, I'd just bite the bullet and upgrade to Waverly, if you love the guitar enough and are willing to put extra mounting screw holes in. Otherwise, you might try the "new" Kluson-branded (your J-45 probably has the Gibson DeLuxe variant) three-on-a-plate tuners, which should be a drop-in. Or, the Tonepros/Kluson version of the same. You'll find both on wdmusic.com. I'll get others to explain the differences between those two, as it's far too complicated for my simple brain. Yes they're are branded 'deluxe' so I guess they're a Gibson 'own-brand' type... Are these new tonepros/kluson more modern in terms of their ratio and stability etc, or are they similar to the kluson-types described earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I have a 2008 J45-TV Ltd (it was one of the pre-TV TVs) it came with 6 individual white button tuners (rather than the 3 in a line like you've got). Mine worked ok but i didn't really like them, some were really stiff and others were really loose. I had them replaced with waverlys after 6 months or so. I'd never used waverlys and I really like them. i can't quite remember if they required new holes or not for the fastening screws, i'm pretty sure we didn't have to order new bushings either. The foot print of the waverly machine is just slightly different than the former ones so there are light indentions on the back of the headstock that are visible only if you go looking for them. all in all i'm real happy with them and would do it again if the need arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleManiac Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm not a huge fan of the tuners on my J45TV either. A little too loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 i changed my white button three a side tuners for grover open backed statite 18.1 tuners and am well impressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I have a 2008 J45-TV Ltd (it was one of the pre-TV TVs) Apologies for the off topic question but may I ask was this pre-TV TV ltd to only the 2008 J45 production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 i don't know all the details but i guess that during 2008 prior to the TV line rolling out Gibson made a limited set of what would become the J-45 TV line. There are a few of us on the forum who coincidently ended up with one. As far as I know it's identical to the J-45TV LTD but the label simply says 'J-45.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefishingline Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 kkkkkkk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 i don't know all the details but i guess that during 2008 prior to the TV line rolling out Gibson made a limited set of what would become the J-45 TV line. There are a few of us on the forum who coincidently ended up with one. As far as I know it's identical to the J-45TV LTD but the label simply says 'J-45.' My understanding has always been that the first TVs began rolling out in 2007. Numerous examples at the time were labeled simply J-45 as you've mentioned. The extra light build, thin back braces, forward shifted X bracing and in most cases a heavy duty tan case w/pink lining were the identifiable characteristics. I've just always called these "TVs" even though Gibson didn't include the designation on the label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Interestingly, I was just changing the strings on my 000-28 EC, which has open-back nickel Gotohs (Grover Sta-Tite style) on it. With these tuners, the string post is the "loose" element, and the tuning post is the solid (tight) one. This is the opposite of the Kluson approach, but the result is the same: Gear lash ends up locking the spur and worm gears together once the string is under tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 thnx jchbalk and Guth for the kind reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Jack, Sorry to hear about your troubles. I'm a big fan of the StewMac Golden age tuners. Great look, great quality, great price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Orion Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well I am getting the hang of the tuners now - they do work but they're still a little unrefined... I think I'm going to change them - ideally I want something with a vintage look but a more modern usability... Bit of a drag to have to do this on a new guitar but I guess it's all part of getting the guitar in the best state for ME to use it... Mayby waverleys ivoriod tuners? What sort of gear ratio need I be looking at for a finer adjustment range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well I am getting the hang of the tuners now - they do work but they're still a little unrefined... I think I'm going to change them - ideally I want something with a vintage look but a more modern usability... Bit of a drag to have to do this on a new guitar but I guess it's all part of getting the guitar in the best state for ME to use it... Mayby waverleys ivoriod tuners? What sort of gear ratio need I be looking at for a finer adjustment range? New ones are usually 14, 15, or 18:1. I'm not sure it really matters that much. The finer ratios make it easier to tune up to pitch without over-shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Orion Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well I've ordered a set of the tonepros/kluson 3 on a plate tuners - shouldn't cost me too much and hopefully they'll work a little better... I'll update this thread when they arrive and let everyone know the outcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.