rar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 First off what's wrong with a Taylor guitar? Are they put together with too much attention to detail ...? ... Strictly speaking, they are put together with absolutely no attention to detail. Attribution of intentional behavior to Taylor's robots is only metaphorical. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 If "key folks" are speaking to Hogeye, ... [w]hy aren't they talking to everyone? Because Hogeye is a close personal friend of "key folks" at Gibson. Telling Hogeye is their way of telling us. Jeremy is the only Bozeman employee allowed to post here, and what he posts is "official communication from Gibson". (And, even if other people were allowed to post here, they would have enough sense not to post anything that could conceivably piss off corporate management.) -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Strictly speaking, they are put together with absolutely no attention to detail. Attribution of intentional behavior to Taylor's robots is only metaphorical. -- Bob R You're kidding me right? Have you ever worked with wood before rar? Guitars are built these days with men/women behind tools just as they were in the old days only difference is today's tools allow tradespeople to do a faster, better, more consistent job than years past. You're not one of those guys that thinks a chisel and a mallet does a better job than a router are you or a cnc machine? Neither of these tools do the job, it's all on the operator... just like how a guitar can't make a sound without someone strumming it's strings. Like I said I'm not a fan of the Taylor sound but they construct near flawlessly made instruments, that says volumes about the pride their workers put into their craft. Something I can respect regardless of where my brand loyalty may lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I just had a thought. The current laminated bridges are extremely unlikely to suffer from glue joint failure, assuming the same glue is used for laminating the bridges that is used to glue the bridge on (viz., aliphatic resin, even on "all hide glue" guitars), because the glue joint between the top and the bridge is much weaker than the joints in the bridge: the rosewood layers are much stiffer than the top, even allowing for the bridge plate, and the surfaces are much better mated. Wouldn't it be a good idea if the bridge joints were deliberately made weaker? Failure of the bridge/top joint is extremely serious, sometimes catastrophic, because it typically causes significant damage to the top. Failure of a bridge joint would mean, at worst, having to replace the bridge. Pickguard adhesives are now chosen so that the glue joint will fail as the pickguard shrinks, in order to avoid the pickguard cracks of the Bad Old Days. By the same logic, a laminated bridge that holds up under ordinary conditions but fails prior to the bridge pulling loose would be a great idea. (I wonder whether simply using hide glue might be enough to do the job in the case of heat-related failures, which is the most common failure mode.) Maybe (properly constructed) laminated bridges are simply a better idea, and will get adopted as quickly and universally as solvent was replaced by those 3M sheets. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 You're kidding me right? ... Only a little. Do you know how many person-hours are required to build a Taylor? And how many person-hours are required to build a Gibson? I'm sure you wouldn't take my word for it, so check with industry sources -- the numbers are an open secret. If you've toured both plants, you know that their construction methods are in no way comparable. If you look around a bit on YouTube, you can find videos of a guitar being sprayed by a robot at Taylor and of a guitar being sprayed by Van Feldner at Gibson, just to get the flavor of the difference. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Only a little. Do you know how many person-hours are required to build a Taylor? And how many person-hours are required to build a Gibson? I'm sure you wouldn't take my word for it, so check with industry sources -- the numbers are an open secret. If you've toured both plants, you know that their construction methods are in no way comparable. If you look around a bit on YouTube, you can find videos of a guitar being sprayed by a robot at Taylor and of a guitar being sprayed by Van Feldner at Gibson, just to get the flavor of the difference. -- Bob R Oh my a robot.... The final product speaks for it's self whether Van Feldner or a man behind Optimus Primer are working the booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 RAR may be right....But I must say, I have NEVER seen saw marks nor a laminated bridge on a Taylor......But who cares....If you want a Gibson with a laminated bridge and fretboard......go buy one, if you don't want one, don't buy one....it's pretty simple. Arguing for or against, is just a matter of taste, a matter of opinion, and opinions are like certain body parts, everyone's got one..... I must say, however, I've played a lot of Taylors and although I don't like their sound, I REALLY loved the necks, lowest action, easy to play, comfortable and VERY uniform across their line. That being said, I LOVE the sound of most Gibsons I've played, even with their minor fit and finish flaws. That's why I have 5 gibsons and NO Taylors.......But it just comes down to this.....you like these new spec Gibsons....keep buying new ones, If you don't like the new spec Gibsona, don't buy them, there are plenty of old spec gibson's out there to keep you going. I'm actually happy for you new spec buyers who really like your new guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 .... If you want a Gibson with a laminated bridge and fretboard......go buy one, if you don't want one, don't buy one....it's pretty simple. ..... Amen. Just check a few of the other forums out there - acoustic and electric. There's been threads about Gibson's laminate move for months. Judging from the numbers split over those that dislike the move and those that support the move, the laminate move has created quite a controversy. There's no getting around the real possibility that quite a few people that will not buy "Post-Lacey Gibson" guitars. Of those, there will be some that will purchase used "Pre-Lacey Gibson" guitars, but Gibson doesn't make money on those sales. The likely result is market share loss for Gibson. As a customer of Gibson, I buy what I like, and I won't be buying any of these "Post-Lacey Gibson" guitars, especially those built with laminated parts, whether they be rosewood or some other wood. Reading posts that explain that I don't have any understanding of Gibson's situation, I'm an ignorant fool with no knowledge, I'm illogical, and/or I'm not loyal, isn't going to change my mind. BTW, I couldn't help but notice quite a few forum members have bought new Martins this year . . . just sayin' . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 The final product speaks for it's self ... Absolutely. But I never said anything about relative quality. I just pointed out that it's not that much of an exaggeration to say that Gibson acoustics are built by woodworkers and Taylor guitars are built by robots. We're not talking about a factor of 2 or 3 difference in the amount of labor. We're talking about a difference big enough that it's fair to characterize it as a qualitative difference. And robots do not "attend to detail". The programmers at Taylor are clearly committed to quality and demonstrate excellent attention to detail -- the fact that the Taylor robots do a fine job attests to that. But programming a CNC machine isn't woodworking, it's programming. Hand-fitting a dovetail neck joint is woodworking. Spraying nitro lacquer with a spray gun is finishing. (As is hand-sanding between finish coats, scraping the binding clear with a microscope slide, and hand-buffing the final finish on a buffing wheel.) These tasks require attention to detail, when performed by human beings. But programming a robot to do these things is neither woodworking nor finishing. The woodworkers and finishers at Gibson are also committed to quality, but their performance varies more than the performance of the Taylor robots. They are, as the saying goes, only human. Which is why Gibson makes limited use of CNC machines for things like cutting fret slots, where extreme accuracy and consistency is a must (and also for things like roughing out necks, where doing the job the old-fashioned way causes far too many repetitive stress injuries). As Wily says, there's plenty of room in the world for guitars built by robots and for guitars built by people. If you prefer guitars built by robots, as consistent as possible from one to the next, feel free to buy guitars built by robots. Rest assured, it makes no difference whatsoever to me what you choose to buy. Come to think of it, buying robot-built guitars might help get you in good with our robotic overlords after the Great Robot Uprising. That's a nice plus! :) -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 And there is plenty of room for folks who want visible saw cuts on plywood bridges, or blistering finishes on your sound hole because the factory didn't have the right tool that day, or globs of dried glue dripping all over the interior of you sound box....to each his own. It for sure doesn't make Gibson better or eliminate these substandard hand built flaws in fit and finish, by putting down, however subtly, other manufacturer's products. The so-called hand built guitar has it's plus and minuses, as we have seen. Whether a guitar neck is cut by a machine or by a gig and by hand, makes no difference...it is still a guitar neck, and that neck has to be assembled by hand no matter if the robot is spraying the finish on the guitar. I can somewhat understand apologists misplaced loyalty for all this hand built sloppy work, but there is no apologist argument for the lie-by-omission substitute plywood bridges and fretboards, without fully disclosing it to buyers. It is a great affront to loyalty of many of us Gibson enthusiasts. One place where Taylor FAR surpasses Gibson with respect to it's values customers is in integrity. So again, you like the Gibson's with sub standard materials which are surpassed by even it's Asian made Epiphones at 1/5th the price...you are welcome to it. If you don't want them, don't buy them. Simple as that. No Apologist argument will sway you one way or the other. And no disgruntled complaint should either. If you like the guitar, hand made or machine assisted, then get it. Otherwise, leave it. Personally, I will check out well made and and solid wood vintage Gibson models, until Gibson gets their act together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 So again, you like the Gibson's with sub standard materials which are surpassed by even it's Asian made Epiphones at 1/5th the price...you are welcome to it. There you go, that's public perception for you..... Despite no tonal differences, despite owner reports A/B'ing them aside pre-Lacey Act models from the same factory in a positive manner for sound qualities, this is something Gibson has brought to its own doorstep and it's something they'll have to change very quickly or they'll be hugely affected as quotes such as OWF's appear more and more frequently on guitar threads. Given there are plenty detractors out there already you really have to question the logic of playing in to the hands of such commonly repeated criticisms. misplaced or otherwise... I will check out well made and and solid wood vintage Gibson models, until Gibson gets their act together. As has been pointed out there's no money in this market for Bozeman nor Gibson as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yawn... Why keep repeating..on and on..what has already been said. Some are just constantly saying the same thing over and over again... for months.... In my opinion Gibson are not fools. Of course they understand public perception.. they don't need a forum to tell them whats what. I truly believe in the near future they will go back to one piece bridges and boards... it just makes sense that they will.. At the moment the are in a bind and are working around it how they are. Again...... this has been done before in the war years when a shortage of material presented a problem. So there will be a period when a certain number of Gibson guitars are made this way. Bolloxs to market forces, and sales patter.. I'm a musician ffs I will lay money down Gibson still sell every Guitar they produce.. including the current spec... and within this year they will resume production with one piece bridges and boards. So why don't we all calm down a little and stop this hysterical banter..it is no good for Gibson thats for sure... they really don't need a number of individuals on a forum to show them how to operate. So some on here won't buy the Lacey Act models.... it makes little difference in the big picture. It's just a shame supposed Gibson fans are giving that very company a bad reputation. I hope Gibson continue to make outstanding guitars for a very long time to come. ( and as I have said before..my Lacey Act HB TV is outstanding..so well done Gibson and a raspberry to all you drama queens ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Why keep repeating..on and on..what has already been said. Some are just constantly saying the same thing over and over again... for months.... The opinions of others on the opposite side of the fence have had a remarkable similarity too... They don't need a forum to tell them whats what. Any company overlooking such a direct contact with its customers would be fools... It was your opinion that "Gibson are no fools", I too agree with that and would make a guess that a lot of feedback from here has made it to both the workers and managements attention. We have had threads claiming so at least. I truly believe in the near future they will go back to one piece bridges and boards... it just makes sense that they will.. At the moment the are in a bind and are working around it how they are. Again...... this has been done before in the war years when a shortage of material presented a problem. So there will be a period when a certain number of Gibson guitars are made this way. War years benefit from being "the originals", sought after for their age and antique value every bit as much as their sound. Such status shaping credentials won't be afforded to these models, it's a lazy comparison. As is the Norlin comparison, all of us who own one yourself included are all pretty positive so a Norlin comparison is utter nonsense. You know it, I know it, but it won't stop it being said and when something is said often enough it starts to carry weight. So the longer it continuous the more exposed you are to disgruntled customers who will likely be judged by the market as '2nd tier owners' by comparison to the preceding years models and heavily exposed to the possible loss of 'persuasion customers' who get their buying advice online. Bolloxs to market forces, and sales patter.. I'm a musician ffs I agree with you Del, but not every customer is the same. So why don't we all calm down a little and stop this hysterical banter..it is no good for Gibson thats for sure... Aside a miraculous smoothing of their difficulties that's the best they can hope for at the minute. It's just a shame supposed Gibson fans are giving that very company a bad reputation. I understand your sentiments, I really do, but the flip side is it's not the customers who have taken a decision to roll out high value models from a fairly elite brand with details that raise eyebrows and muster comments such as "If that was pac-rim it would be slated for being so cheap". I hope Gibson continue to make outstanding guitars for a very long time to come. Finally something I think we can and should all agree on. As for the "Yawn" sorry other peoples opinions bore you so much Del, enjoy your guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I havent participated into this thread as to me the laminate thingie is not much of an issue. I always focus on tone and then have a quick glance at the fit n finish. Anyway, I reckon 99% of those 30,000 annual customes of Gibson acoustics probably have no idea about the laminate bridge/ fretboard and frankly coldnt care less. Gibson will be fine, ill still keep on boying them. Now ... i need to get back to the shop to take another look at that CJ .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 I havent participated into this thread as to me the laminate thingie is not much of an issue. I always focus on tone and then have a quick glance at the fit n finish. Anyway, I reckon 99% of those 30,000 annual customes of Gibson acoustics probably have no idea about the laminate bridge/ fretboard and frankly coldnt care less. Gibson will be fine, ill still keep on boying them. Now ... i need to get back to the shop to take another look at that CJ .. Well said EA.. my thoughts exactly. I don't know why I am participating in this thread really.. the whole debacle has kept me away from the forum..and i been busy making music..wow thats a concept. But its a coldish Sunday in Ireland and I need a break form working on bleeding drum tracks.. so I will humor PM with some friendly banter. ParlourMan You claim I made a lazy comparison. I think you missed the point of my thread. I was offering an opinion; that I have not previously offered: that Gibson will go back to one piece spec's in the near future. and this EXACT, not similar but Exact, process has been taken up before by Gibson when they could not source the right materials. After that phase passed they returned to traditional methods. I was not making comparisons to said guitars, merely pointing out this has happened before.. and as EA points out.. Gibson got through it. How do you know these guitars will not be sought after in the future as you claim? Really ... how do you know. Ren era produced Gibsons may well be sought after 40 years from now.. Lacey act or not. Indeed any guitar from this era. You have been one of... if not THE main contributor to this whole issue, going back to when it first appeared. But I'm sorry PM you just keep repeating yourself, you have made you points quite elegantly more than enough. If you feel like making them some more.. fine.. I don't have to read them and your entitled to do so. But just to pull you up on some points..as you have done with others. You categorically stated you would not part with your money on one of these guitars.... in the process of your opinions on market forces/ customer perception/ potential buyers fleeing from Gibson then you go out and buy one What gives? Your whole philosophy just crumbled.... you yourself have proven your hypothesis flawed. I don't need to hear anymore about how some people will be turned away from these guitars.. everything has been said. You got pretty personal with Hogeye.. who in my opinion have been one of a few here talking any sense in regards this matter. I honestly don't think he was aiming his tense post at you.. just you have been the main poster on this topic, so he was giving his point of view. If i remember correctly he was one of a few who knew what was happening with Ren when that fist started leaking out, (AND A LOT OF NONSENSE WAS POSTED THEN ALSO) and he stated the people at Boseman where shocked that this laminate business was causing such a furrow on this forum. Because THEY the people that make them thought it was not so much of a big issue. Just like EA above..and the majority of Gibson buyers..who as pointed out probably dont know and dont care if their bridge is 2 piece..as long as it sounds good. I'm afraid you continually posting on this subject has done much to fuel the fire and enforce some , in my opinion, ridiculous, naive, and drama loving posts and opinions. Please feel free to offer up your views on market share and hurt sales figures one more time. Oh and please can we have some more of those..(quote) " when something is said often enough it starts to carry weight" points you yourself keep saying.. just so they can carry a little more weight.huh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffchris Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hey, Just to let you guys know I own a pacific rim acoustic, it's well made, good action, and sounds ok. I thought it sounded good till i got my Gibson, IMO there is no comparison. I've also owned a couple of epi's, maybe I had some bad ones but they were just not up to the job. Saying that I've never owned nor played a master built. From all the guitars that I have played the two best IMO was a new Gibson acoustic and a Gibson Les Paul Custom from the early 90's. Do you guy's really want to go over the same points? I honestly think half of this thread has nothing to do with fretboard's and bridges as it does personal differences. Unless someone from Gibson(which ain't gonna happen) chirps in then everyone's just speculating. It's being made out that every gibson from 2011 on wards is laminate but I think 4 people said that theirs were soild and 3 have said it wasn't, so what percentage is it really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Del, thank you for humouring me, how elevated of you.... I will humour you in return. None of us are fortune tellers, this is true... I stand by the opinion that factoring in the guitar market being a fragile and traditionalist market the perception of laminate parts models will suffer in a direct shoot-out of specs because they're a company who's increasing price scale is matched with its closeness to traditionally and vintage specced instruments. But, lets see you put your money where your mouth is.... As for being too vocal on this subject for you, you do have the option of ignoring my posts, all I have presented is positive assessments of the actual product and a realisation that other factors will work against it.I believe I was the one who pointed out my own change of heart when evaluated as an instrument and A/B'd against my more market desirable models. Maybe you missed the "SAY IT LOUD AND SAY IT PROUD" part of my own thread. Answer me honestly, would you prefer your Lacey-Act model to have a single piece bridge knowing that it ticks all the 'cork-sniffer' boxes on the off chance you might sell some day? or just that it respects it's 'vintage' association by adhering to the design especially in one of the more aesthetic regions. I'd be rather amused to see your response being "no". As for the leaving of Ren, I believe my post on it read something along the lines of "The King is dead, long like the king" and have always advocated while Ren was a popular figurehead, it was the workers producing these beauties each and every day. I'm not Johnny Depp nor another $100,000 and upwards customer. Aside from responding to Hogeye's personalisations earlier in the thread, I have been nothing but courteous, so I resent the presentation that it was me who took it to a personal level, you have clearly chosen who to side with but at least keep your points fair. I will keep my J-50, I will cherish it just as I do my other Gibson guitars, I might even argue that I found out about my Laceyfied model, processed the news and decided to keep it the quickest of us all so far who've found out after the fact. To put it in crude terms that everyone can understand, 4 Gibson's in 16 months, how many did you buy? Will I buy from Gibson again, yes I do believe so, will I buy another full-priced laminate 'Lacey Act' model? probably not. WIll I comment on threads to people worried about getting a 'Lacey Act" guitar saying that I own one and love the guitar as much as my other models? Yes I will... Do I hope I'm wrong and that these models will be as popular and sellable as their pre-Lacey sibling, of course I do.... I just don't think I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 You should go into politics PM now there's a type/ profession I really get along with..hahahah good luck man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 You should go into politics PM now there's a type/ profession I really get along with..hahahah good luck man My taste for hookers and blow might work against me! Besides, I'm too busy putting Gibson out of business by buying them up one at a time. Nice insult though, I like a man who can appreciate subtlety. A round of applause for you, Del. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dotneck Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Boy howdy Gibson's sure taking a thumpin' on this development from the forum. I assume they have made this spec change due to particulars of availability of rosewood of the proper dimensions. Here is what I think about the shortage of EI rosewood. These are photos of Jean Larrivee sourcing rosewood on a recent trip to India... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 My taste for hookers and blow might work against me! Clearly, you don't live in the US if you think those proclivities would prevent you from entering entering politics. It's practically a requirement in this country that you separate your own personal shortcomings from your outstanding qualifications as a politician. And this applies across the political spectrum...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 My taste for hookers and blow might work against me! Besides, I'm too busy putting Gibson out of business by buying them up one at a time. Nice insult though, I like a man who can appreciate subtlety. A round of applause for you, Del. That's a REQUIREMENT not a detriment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 It's a beautiful day in Montana. Sunny and warm. I was just thinking about all this tempest in a teapot and will add just a bit more for all the Gibson trolls out there. Gibson has a history of changing specifications. This situation is deja vu all over again. Government intervention and all. In the early 1940's Gibson had to make guitars without truss rods. Were people upset. Welllll....I wasn't buying at the time but I would bet there were plenty of folks that were upset. It seems that the country was in a World War and they needed all the metal to go to the war effort. Then the shipping lanes went down and it was impossible to import wood. Next? The government needed all the spruce to make airplane parts. What did Gibson do? They made guitars with big thick necks to compensate for the lack of truss rods. They laminated small pieces of Spruce together to make tops, but the one thing they didn't do was give up and close the plant. They fought thru the problems and they coped the best they could. The result of all of this was some of the best guitars ever built by anyone. Of course there is no World War now but the Government did start the problem. Did Gibson quit and close up shop? Some of you here think they should have. Well they didn't. They just kept working thru the problem and did the best they could in the face of adversity. In spite of the current political situation they stuck with it and are doing just fine. Are these guitars going to reach the status of the 40's guitars? Probably not. The one thing that will happen, despite all of the negative posting,is that Gibson will live to fight another day. The situation with the wood will be resolved and we can all get back to our perfect little lives. The one thing that you can count on is that the good folks at Gibson/Montana will continue to give you the very best thay can. With the materials they have. They are honest hard working folks and they will never quit. The spirit of Kalamazoo is alive and well in Montana and rant all you want it won't change. A little John Phillip Sousa's "Stars And Stripes Forever" would be nice background music right now. Am I adding to my fan club? I don't think so. Do I care what the trolls think about me? Nope... Will Gibson survive the "Great attack of the Government". HELL YES.....The post that hurt the most was the one where the guy thought I might be Henry. That was a low blow for sure. I've been called a lot of things but never that. Shame on you.... For all the folks out there willing to give Montana the benefit of the doubt. Good all over you. For the trolls that see a conspiracy by Gibson to do them harm. Shame on you. Crawl back under the (laminated) bridge. We now know who you are. Hang on Gibson supporters this will be over with soon. Enjoy your Sunday and please-please,please play you Gibson with pride. List of Gibson supporters: #1. Hogeye 2. ? 3.? Anyone else out there care to add their name to the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarstrummer Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Finally, something in this thread worth responding to. Count me in as a Gibson supporter, Hogeye. Also Hogeye, if you're not Henry, could it possibly be that you're Ren? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 LOL....indeed, Ren probably left over this very thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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