Define Music

[ShredAstaire]

There's been a lot of "discussion" on what's music round here lately.

 

So before you can truly say what is or what is not music, I think we need a definition of the term to work with.

 

So let's hear it. What is your personal definition of music? I'm so interested to see the different ideas flowing in this one...

[kaleb]

A sound with rhythm, but doesn't have to be "danceable" to the common person. I say that as a die hard Rush fan.

 

It has to have feeling and soul. No mechanicalness.

 

Real music cannot be performed by samplers and machines, with only a few exceptions. Again, I say that as a die hard Rush fan. (they use triggers and samplers live but they're recorded samples of stuff they actually wrote and played on real instruments..)

 

It takes some talent and skill to play.

 

Anyone can rap. I have relatives that aren't really musically inclined in any way but they can throw lyrics together and shout them out.

 

Musicians can go to school, rappers can't.

 

Do the math.

 

There is no rap studies that I know of at Berklee.

[Rabs]

I will go with what Wikipedia says :P

 

Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture. The word derives from Greek μουσική (mousike; "art of the Muses").[1]

 

The creation, performance, significance, and even the definition of music vary according to culture and social context. Music ranges from strictly organized compositions (and their recreation in performance), through improvisational music to aleatoric forms. Music can be divided into genres and subgenres, although the dividing lines and relationships between music genres are often subtle, sometimes open to individual interpretation, and occasionally controversial. Within "the arts", music may be classified as a performing art, a fine art, and auditory art. There is also a strong connection between music and mathematics.[2]

 

To many people in many cultures, music is an important part of their way of life. Ancient Greek and Indian philosophers defined music as tones ordered horizontally as melodies and vertically as harmonies. Common sayings such as "the harmony of the spheres" and "it is music to my ears" point to the notion that music is often ordered and pleasant to listen to. However, 20th-century composer John Cage thought that any sound can be music, saying, for example, "There is no noise, only sound."[3] Musicologist Jean-Jacques Nattiez summarizes the relativist, post-modern viewpoint: "The border between music and noise is always culturally defined—which implies that, even within a single society, this border does not always pass through the same place; in short, there is rarely a consensus ... By all accounts there is no single and intercultural universal concept defining what music might be."[

[WahKeen]

[FirstMeasure]

I used to think rap wasn't music until I realized the vocalist was just in the rhythm section and there's very little melody.

[surfpup]

It's up to me. I know it when I hear it - and when I don't. Everything else is your problem.

[FirstMeasure]

To me the question is just one of definition. Whether it's "music" or not has nothing to do with legitimacy or art. If it's legally defined that Rap is not Music, it doesn't make it any less entertaining, legitimate, or artistic.

 

Is a Percussionist a Musician? Does the answer effect his importance in group?

 

Santana without Percussionists is not Santana, so even if a percussionist isn't a musician he's more important than a Rhythm Guitarist in that band.

[ShredAstaire]

the vocalist was just in the rhythm section and there's very little melody.

 

This is true in general I'd say. Though I've listened to a lot of melodic rapping in my time. Del is a great example...he raps in a more sing-songy way than most. Like any genre, you may have to dig to find something that hits you.

 

Some people never find it but to call ANY genre "not music" is pretty silly to me. I don't like a LOT of types of music...its still music.

[Tman5293]

For me personally, music is whatever I say it is regardless of what others think.

[Ryan H]

For me personally, music is whatever I say it is regardless of what others think.

 

Amen brother

[ChanMan]

I hear music in the squeee and slap of my windshield wipers. I hear music in the frogs and crickets over the distant sound of a train whistle. I hear music in the sound of a brook, or the noise of traffic through an office window 5 stories over downtown Nashville.

 

I guess I hear music everywhere!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJkNDMUidYo

[stein]

Poetry is art, but it isn't music.

 

Rap can have elements of music in it, but rap itself isn't music.

[kaleb]

Poetry is art, but it isn't music.

 

Rap can have elements of music in it, but rap itself isn't music.

 

Rap=poetry set to a beat with a bunch of side noises.

 

After all, a rap is a form of poetry.

[pippy]

Is a Percussionist a Musician? Does the answer effect his importance in group?

 

Santana without Percussionists is not Santana, so even if a percussionist isn't a musician he's more important than a Rhythm Guitarist in that band.

But why on Earth would a drummer not be considered a musician? Taking, as a starting point, part of the definition Rabs posted from Wiki;

 

"Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch, rhythm, dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture."

 

All of this is available to a drummer. In fact, in some ways this excerpt actually defines the art of drumming.

 

Equally, Rap fits in perfectly with this definition of music so all the 'Rap Isn't Music' nonsense is just that; a lot of nonsense.

Whether one likes Rap is, of course, a matter of personal choice but it doesn't alter the fact that it is, unarguably, music.

 

P.

[retrosurfer1959]

Life and idea's expressed with sound and rhythm!

 

 

or I can get all artsy and say;

 

 

The voice of the human soul made real!

[retrosurfer1959]

A sound with rhythm, but doesn't have to be "danceable" to the common person. I say that as a die hard Rush fan.

 

It has to have feeling and soul. No mechanicalness.

 

Real music cannot be performed by samplers and machines, with only a few exceptions. Again, I say that as a die hard Rush fan. (they use triggers and samplers live but they're recorded samples of stuff they actually wrote and played on real instruments..)

 

It takes some talent and skill to play.

 

Anyone can rap. I have relatives that aren't really musically inclined in any way but they can throw lyrics together and shout them out.

 

Musicians can go to school, rappers can't.

 

Do the math.

 

There is no rap studies that I know of at Berklee.

 

 

You would be wrong!

 

There are several vocal classes and even writing seminars at Berkley that cover Rap and hip hop. The fact that people still argue that Rap isn't music amazes me? That argument was solved 10-15 years ago when Rap became a mainstream musical genre and now there's Broadway shows and even classical dance being done to Rap. Your right anyone can rap but they will totally suck just like saying anyone can play the guitar or a piano probably true but again with out skill, dedication and practice they'll suck. Playing something through a Midi instrument is no different then playing a instrument of any kind. Unless your a singer your note making the musical tones yourself on a guitar either you sure don't create a G chord! Just because you pluck the strings with your fingers in the right place. How is that any different then someone hitting a midi button? A guitar is absolutely no different than a sampler it just happens to have six buttons in a grid of 24 frets and each time you play the proper sequence you get the sound you want. I'm sure you could play a midi instrument but you'd suck and you would make all your own beliefs true because it wouldn't be music based on your lack of skill with the instrument not the instruments lack of skill.

 

Oh and if that's not proof enough - Check out a rapper, writer and composer named John-John that is very talented and a alumni of Berkley school of music as is most of his hip-hop group the J&J dance troop. There solid performers in the Dirty South genre of hip-hop and rap and all skilled and talented educated musicians. Closed minds don't belong on musicians - were supposed to be the artists of the world supporting each other even in our differences and not the narrow minded citizens that sit and talk about what music should be like.

[stein]

 

Whether one likes Rap is, of course, a matter of personal choice but it doesn't alter the fact that it is, unarguably, music.

 

P.

I would not agree it is "unarguable". It practically begs the argument.

 

I accept it as an art form. I can accept it is enjoyable to many. But paintings are not music. Neither are sculptures.

 

And here lies the argument: is all art involving sound music?

 

Consider poetry; when it is spoken, or read out loud, it is an artistic expression, and even voice inflections can have emotion. But yet this does not qualify it as music. But, you can also READ poetry and it is still worthwhile.

 

I think you can read rap lyrics and still achieve the message, still get the artistry of it. But reading lyrics to a song only gets some of the picture.

 

It was common at one time for 'beatniks' to play drums or music behind the reading of poetry. To my ears, this closest resembles the genre of rap. The only real difference is many are replacing listening to music with listening to rap, in essence, using it for the same purposes.

[Stooge]

A form of beautiful art that can hold the attention of others, and inspire. I can't think of anything else.

[FirstMeasure]

But why on Earth would a drummer not be considered a musician? Taking, as a starting point, part of the definition Rabs posted from Wiki;

 

"Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch, rhythm, dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture."

 

All of this is available to a drummer. In fact, in some ways this excerpt actually defines the art of drumming.

 

Equally, Rap fits in perfectly with this definition of music so all the 'Rap Isn't Music' nonsense is just that; a lot of nonsense.

Whether one likes Rap is, of course, a matter of personal choice but it doesn't alter the fact that it is, unarguably, music.

 

P.

Just for the sake of argument.

[pippy]

I would not agree it is "unarguable". It practically begs the argument.........And here lies the argument: is all art involving sound music?

If the sounds made are performed specifically in order to create a piece of 'Music' then, clearly, the answer is Yes.

 

Briefly regarding your analogy with some of the visual arts, stein; I don't care much for the works of Jackson Pollock nor Mark Rothko - in fact I think the're both really crap and very, very boring - but, regardless of my personal opinion, the works created by them are, unquestionably, works of Art.

 

Here is the Wiki 'Music' excerpt again (to save people having to flit between posts);

 

"Music is an art form whose medium is sound and silence. Its common elements are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture."

 

Rap has all these elements present (yes it does...lol!) therefore it is, by definition, 'Music'.

 

Here's another part of the quote which I think is relevant to the discussion;

"Musicologist Jean-Jacques Nattiez summarizes the relativist, post-modern viewpoint: "The border between music and noise is always culturally defined—which implies that, even within a single society, this border does not always pass through the same place; in short, there is rarely a consensus ... By all accounts there is no single and intercultural universal concept defining what music might be."

 

Listen to Dylan's delivery of the lyrics here and tell me how it differs, in it's pure essence, from Rap...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHfWjYSwK9c

 

Nor was Dylan even remotely close to being one of the eariest 'Rappers'. The 'melody-lines' of most Gregorian Chants are, by their nature, essentially a type of 'Rapping'.

 

There are musical genres (some of which have made an appearance in the lounge recently) which I consider to be far less 'musical' than either Rap or Hip-Hop but my very low opinion of them doesn't alter the fact that they are still, by definition, 'Music'.

 

P.

[zigzag]

I agree with Chanman and retro. Music is made by a medium producing sound with rhythm and a change in pitch. Any other definitions are restrictive, IMO.

[pippy]

Just for the sake of argument.

I disagree..........

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc

 

P.

[ShredAstaire]

You would be wrong!

 

There are several vocal classes and even writing seminars at Berkley that cover Rap and hip hop. The fact that people still argue that Rap isn't music amazes me? That argument was solved 10-15 years ago when Rap became a mainstream musical genre and now there's Broadway shows and even classical dance being done to Rap. Your right anyone can rap but they will totally suck just like saying anyone can play the guitar or a piano probably true but again with out skill, dedication and practice they'll suck. Playing something through a Midi instrument is no different then playing a instrument of any kind. Unless your a singer your note making the musical tones yourself on a guitar either you sure don't create a G chord! Just because you pluck the strings with your fingers in the right place. How is that any different then someone hitting a midi button? A guitar is absolutely no different than a sampler it just happens to have six buttons in a grid of 24 frets and each time you play the proper sequence you get the sound you want. I'm sure you could play a midi instrument but you'd suck and you would make all your own beliefs true because it wouldn't be music based on your lack of skill with the instrument not the instruments lack of skill.

 

Oh and if that's not proof enough - Check out a rapper, writer and composer named John-John that is very talented and a alumni of Berkley school of music as is most of his hip-hop group the J&J dance troop. There solid performers in the Dirty South genre of hip-hop and rap and all skilled and talented educated musicians. Closed minds don't belong on musicians - were supposed to be the artists of the world supporting each other even in our differences and not the narrow minded citizens that sit and talk about what music should be like.

 

Where's that hand clapping emoticon?!

[zigzag]

Once we get into the discussion of what is art or good art or it's only good if I say it is, then we get into a totally different discussion. I'm not going back there again.

[ShredAstaire]

For real zz!!!

 

Thats a conversation killer..."Whatever I don't like is not music/art and other people can suck it" is also a very childish way of looking at things. I expect that from a teenager but not adults!