When does someone become a player?

[DanvillRob]

 

 

As for the pretty lady "thing..." Gee, I'm certain I've never seen or heard of anything like that before. <chortle>

 

m

 

Milo.... I know you're heard me say this SEVERAL times..... NEVER marry a groupie.... after you become a 'husband'...they'll still be a groupie!

[darth_flanger]

Excellent question, one of those that makes you think a little.

 

Answer to me, depends on the individual goal of the guy playing. Nobody can say anyone's music is less valid than anyone elses, technical ability is largely objective, all else is pretty much subjective.

 

Bottom line is its down to you, when you decide to call your self proficient by your own measure. The rest of the world will make its own judgement.

 

For some it is to strum a few chords, play a few licks in a music store/ jam and have others rate him as a muso. Job done.

 

On a personal basis, having been playing since 1986, the moment I will consider my self proficient is when the divide between the stuff in my head and the stuff emanating from the amp are seamless...

[milod]

Rob... Yupper.

 

In fact... never even dated one.

 

Flirted like crazy during some gigs in my rock days, noted that most were married or apparently desperate to be married in my saloon-pickin' country days.

 

Nope. I've made enough mistakes without adding the "musician" side of things to the mix. OTOH, I've always wondered how a duo might make it - but I've also seen so many times that "career" and "relationship" don't necessarily keep working over time, even at the saloon band level.

 

Guys like Bob Norton seem to have the best of it on a musicial/relationship plane - and long may it work for him.

 

m

[zigzag]

The question is like a koan. When are you a guitar player, or a musician, or better yet, what is music? Fodder for newer members, but like running a marathon for board vets.

[Rabs]

The question is like a koan. When are you a guitar player, or a musician, or better yet, what is music? Fodder for newer members, but like running a marathon for board vets.

So you have said.

 

But your own categorisation of board newbies and vets is labeling people in the same way as we are discussing about guitar players.

 

And I think some people have taken this thread slightly the wrong way.

 

In fact I started this as my brother in law was saying he doesn't really consider himself a player yet even though I told him he is. And that comes down to the fact that he still has trouble keeping up when we try and jam which frustrates him ( and yes I slow down for him ).

 

I just though it may make an interesting topic it's not life or death :)

[milod]

Rabs...

 

In a sense, it may have as much to do with whom you compare yourself.

 

I compare myself to folks ranging from BB, Segovia, Carlos Montoya, Doc Watson, Joe Pass and Chet Atkins and always come up short - but with a target to attempt to get as close to such music as I can before somebody is putting daisies somewhere above me.

 

Others simply wanna play along with friends.

 

I think both general groups qualify as "musicians" at least in the sense of making technical or performances as "right" as possible.

 

Your BIL will get there. Each of us does our best with whatever it is we might have within us that makes us want to do our best.

 

m

[treedroppings]

When you play something and are happy with it, you are a player!

[RS1976]

chicks.

[stein]

Personally, a couple things stand out:

 

When I was 15, I played all the time and that's all I really wanted to do. My peers considered me a "player", I was better than most of them, even through High School. I was always at the ready with a guitar, always ready to play with anyone or myself any time any place. That might be the most I FELT like a player, but I was yet to do most of the things that many use as a measuring stick.

 

Fast forward to my late 20's living in L.A., and what me and my playing peers considered a "musician" was making a living at it or having an income. Moving to Portland Oregon, I was labeled a "musician" by everyone I came across because I could and did play. In an instant, the definition changed because of where I was.

 

I think we are all striving for something, and looking for "achievement" in our playing is a healthy thing. But even still, there are MANY different skills and humps. I have known guys that can play the most complex of tunes and play them perfectly and VERY good, but can NOT play unrehearsed. I have known guys that can get up and jam with anyone live regardless of the type of music, but can't craft a tune for anything. Seen some who can come up with origonal and good materiel but only can play a couple chords. Some that play better than I could ever hope to, but can't collaborate or play a lick unless told what to play.

 

Even so, while I have personally achieved most of the above at various times, my involvement in it is mostly writing on this forum to you guys. And not practicing or playing much, I am sure most can do it better as we speak at this moment. Wouldn't even know I was a 'player' if you knew me. In fact, when company comes over, it only comes out when they see the cases and ask, "What that?"

 

I think the best answer is: if you wear the hat.

[Rabs]

Rabs...

 

In a sense, it may have as much to do with whom you compare yourself.

 

I compare myself to folks ranging from BB, Segovia, Carlos Montoya, Doc Watson, Joe Pass and Chet Atkins and always come up short - but with a target to attempt to get as close to such music as I can before somebody is putting daisies somewhere above me.

 

Others simply wanna play along with friends.

 

I think both general groups qualify as "musicians" at least in the sense of making technical or performances as "right" as possible.

 

Your BIL will get there. Each of us does our best with whatever it is we might have within us that makes us want to do our best.

 

m

Yeah im not really trying to gauge skill level here or pass judgement... I was just inetersted in seeing if other people think the same thing I do which they mostly seem too.. that a player is a player when they think they are.. So even though I think my brother in law is doing well for less than three years of playing, he doesnt.. he just concentrates on what hes doing wrong rather than what hes doing right.. And when I say wrong and right im talking about timing and getting the chords right (not whats right or wrong musically before anyone says it :P)

 

Its all about your own confidence.. Ive been playing most of my life and have played in bands but not for many many years now.. I would like to get back out there but when I look at classified ads it just puts me off probably down to my lack of confidence with playing with others as its been so long for me. But that doesnt mean I dont think I can play.. Its just nerves and my own insecurities. But thats just me (at the moment) :)

[zigzag]

...your own categorisation of board newbies and vets is labeling people in the same way as we are discussing about guitar players...

 

I am distinguishing between those who have already had similar discussions on this board and those who haven't. A player is one who plays, period. End of discussion. Trying to define a guitar player beyond that is moot.

[Rabs]

I am distinguishing between those who have already had similar discussions on this board and those who haven't. A player is one who plays, period. End of discussion. Trying to define a guitar player beyond that is moot.

Yet we are all still discussing it

 

:P

[ShredAstaire]

It seems to me that this discussion does a lot to separate guitarists. If someone wants to call themselves a player, who am I (Or you...or anyone) to give them criteria to meet that definition? If you are playing the instrument, you're a player!

 

Now if you use the word Musician instead of "player", you'll have a different discussion.

[FirstMeasure]

It seems to me that this discussion does a lot to separate guitarists. If someone wants to call themselves a player, who am I (Or you...or anyone) to give them criteria to meet that definition? If you are playing the instrument, you're a player!

 

Now if you use the word Musician instead of "player", you'll have a different discussion.

That's too easy. If you buy some swim fins and take a dip in a pool does that make you a swimmer. No, you have to know how to swim. Doe being able to swim with fins on make you a diver? No, you have to have diving skills. Does buying a car make you a driver? No, you have to be able to drive. Does buying some skis and learning to snow plow make you a skier. Not if you friends that know how to ski have to stay on the bunny slope in order for you to hang out.

 

In my day, a guy who could play the beginning of a few songs and only knows power chords was called a poser, not a player. There has to be a threshold or advancement and skill mean absolutely nothing.

 

Crap, you can't buy yourself a shovel and call yourself a ditch digger if you can't move some Earth with it.

[FirstMeasure]

I am distinguishing between those who have already had similar discussions on this board and those who haven't. A player is one who plays, period. End of discussion. Trying to define a guitar player beyond that is moot.

What s your definition of "plays"? In your opinion does a player even have to be able to tune his guitar? 'Cause I think being able to tune your instrument is paramount to achieving "player" status.

[Izzy]

What s your definition of "plays"? In your opinion does a player even have to be able to tune his guitar? 'Cause I think being able to tune your instrument is paramount to achieving "player" status.

 

I think the key is dedication.

 

I always tune using the fat E as a guide without a tuner, so I never know if the note I assign the fat E is in fact an E. I strung my guitar and tuned it by ear a few days ago. When I came to my room and used the tuner to re-tune the guitar (assign the right notes) I was shocked to discover I had tuned the E string to an E and every string after was dead on with my tuner. I don't dilute myself into thinking I am a guitar player, though.

 

I can play start to finish about fifteen songs. I can even sing and play at the same time with over half of those. I could learn a hundred more songs if I had the time, but even if I did I wouldn't say, "I am a guitar player."

 

I say, "I play guitar," the way many of us say, "I play soccer." To say, "I am a soccer player" you don't have to be making money off it, you could just play on a local team and be dedicated and train and take it seriously. To play soccer all you need is a ball and a field and someone to kick the ball back to you or fight you for it.

 

To play is to have fun. To be a player is to have dedication. Skill is nothing to me. My ex can play a hundred songs dead on all high difficulty, but my ex is an accountant (with a great ear, great gear and the agility of a guitar god).

[milod]

A cupla points here...

 

Izzy is right... play the guitar vs. being a guitar player.

 

Or... how about also player vs. performer. That BIL who has been playing three years and is hung up about error in a jam may not have playing problems as much as performing problems.

 

I knew the instant I took up guitar that it was a continuation of various sorts of performance that I'd done since I was around 3 years old.

 

In retrospect, I didn't think that consciously at age 18, it simply was a given that one way or another there would be public performance. Don't get me wrong, I get stage fright as much as anyone - some "huge name" stars admit to the same. But the difference is that of playing and polishing for potential performances or simply playing and polishing for... whatever else.

 

I think that may be as much or more a difference among folks at different periods of their involvement with music than defining one as a "player." I could imagine a guy with three or four chords and a huge repertoire of great jokes he can present well - and the guitar is the part of his act that separates the jokes and is part of his act as an "entertainer."

 

m

[ShredAstaire]

Jeez FM...I think you might be taking guitar playing too seriously if you think that someone who can only play a couple of chords is a poser. Who are you to judge someone's skill at their hobby? Some people don't need to know every chord and variation to enjoy doing it.

 

By your definition, a guy who plays guitar for his kids (A,C,G) can't call himself a player? He might not be a musician but he's certainly a player as far as I am concerned.

[FirstMeasure]

Potatoes vs patatos.

 

guitar Player vs play guitar. Existentially interesting, but no significant difference.

 

My point is, there must be a point where you are now a guitar player today, but not yesterday. The notion that seems to be thrown around here, the one I have an issue with, is there's no such thing as a player. Buy a guitar, pluck a string and your a "Player"? NO! NO! NO!

 

That's a modern art approach to music, which is art, but not necessarily skill. Jackson Pollock was an artist, but anyone who dribbled paint on a canvas was not the artist Jackson Pollock was. Even if there's no way to pinpoint the moment he became an artist, it was obvious that he achieved something beyond the ownership of paint and canvas.

 

Izzy's point. You don't consider yourself a player. Too bad, you are one. You don't get to redefine what a guitar player is just because you haven't achieved your full potential. You're simply not the player you want to be, but you are a player. Conversely, someone who owns a guitar but cannot play it after 40 year is not a player.

 

Personally I think you have to get past the basics of any craft before you can call yourself a purveyor of that craft. If not, why are there 101 classes in colleges?

 

Now, Milo's suggestion about performer vs player seems moot. You must be a player before you can perform, that's a totally different question that requires many different skills aside from simply guitar playing. It's pretty obvious that you're a performer after you've successfully entertained an audience. A "Player" is a much greyer area.

[FirstMeasure]

Jeez FM...I think you might be taking guitar playing too seriously if you think that someone who can only play a couple of chords is a poser. Who are you to judge someone's skill at their hobby? Some people don't need to know every chord and variation to enjoy doing it.

 

By your definition, a guy who plays guitar for his kids (A,C,G) can't call himself a player? He might not be a musician but he's certainly a player as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry. A guy who can only play a couple chord and calls himself a guitar player is a poser.

 

And I'm sorry, but that's not my decision. Surely you're not suggesting that there's no such thing as a poser?

 

}edit{ and it's not a question of taking anything to seriously, it's a question of observing ability's a respecting the dedication it takes to achieve those abilities. Someone who's achieved Intermediate Status deserves recognition for that achievement. Someone who hasn't should realize that.

[ShredAstaire]

I'm sorry. A guy who can only play a couple chord and calls himself a guitar player is a poser.

 

100% disagree as a generalization. A guy that can only play a couple of chords is a beginner guitar player first and foremost. Maybe some are posers, but that generalization is silly.

 

 

And I'm sorry, but that's not my decision.

 

Yeah it is.

 

}edit{ and it's not a question of taking anything to seriously, it's a question of observing ability's a respecting the dedication it takes to achieve those abilities. Someone who's achieved Intermediate Status deserves recognition for that achievement. Someone who hasn't should realize that.

 

Yeah I agree...the recognition is that you are a decent or good guitar player. You see, in ALL hobbies, there is a variety of skill involved. Some people are really good at said hobby and some aren't. Does it mean they are not hobbyists? Not all people who have a hobby need other people's approval to enjoy it and that does not make them posers if they are not very good. It just means they are not very good at it. Let people have their fun and who gives a flying you know what about what they call themselves?

 

Besides, who the heck goes around saying "I'm a guitar player"?

[Dave F]

I think it's what circle you're in.

When I play with my childhood freinds, I'm a guitar god.

In the late 60's and early 70's I played in the bars for money, but did not feel like a professional and played rhythm to a guy much better than I.

Here I am 60 years old taking lessons from a 30 year old and sometimes feel like I know very little.

I hold my own when jamming, but I do not steal the show. Here's a jam session I sat in on a few years ago, dig the mandolin playin' Honky Tonk.

My best learning experience was a church band (10 years) with keyboards, drums and horns. Learned more about rhythms, timing and patterns more than any other time.

I'm still learning and I do not consider myself a player, unless I'm with the old gang.

[milod]

I dunno...

 

I think sometimes we get ourselves tied up in semantics in discussions of this sort.

 

There are plenty of entertainers who play simple guitar to captivate audiences and there are plenty of folks who play guitar with skill and dedication who can't make it on stage or much of anywhere else outside their bedroom.

 

It seems every time we get into such similar discussions that include various subjective definitions we get into ... a similar semantic game.

 

The one advantage, I think, is that it brings us to think about ourselves a bit even more than of others... and such introspection ain't bad.

 

m

[FirstMeasure]

100% disagree as a generalization. A guy that can only play a couple of chords is a beginner guitar player first and foremost. Maybe some are posers, but that generalization is silly.

 

 

 

 

Yeah it is.

 

 

 

Yeah I agree...the recognition is that you are a decent or good guitar player. You see, in ALL hobbies, there is a variety of skill involved. Some people are really good at said hobby and some aren't. Does it mean they are not hobbyists? Not all people who have a hobby need other people's approval to enjoy it and that does not make them posers if they are not very good. It just means they are not very good at it. Let people have their fun and who gives a flying you know what about what they call themselves?

 

Besides, who the heck goes around saying "I'm a guitar player"?

Posers go around saying "I'm a guitar player".

 

And as I said, but you ignored, "A guy who goes around claiming to be a guitarist (which happens everyday in high schools and internet discussion boards all over the world) but can only play a couple chords." A guy who can only play a couple chords today, but will learn a couple more tomorrow is a beginner. That's the BIG DIFFERENCE that even you cannot ignore.

 

A Guitar Player must be able to play the guitar. The difference between playng it well or poorly is subjective. Being able to play it or not is objective. Can you move from one chord to the other without missing a beat? Can you finish a song? Can your fingers do what your fingers need to do in order to operate the instrument? These answers must be yes or you are not a guitar player, you are a guitar player in training.

 

Being able to use scissors does not make you a beautician, even though beauty is a very subjective matter. The same must apply to musicians or we do music a disservice in favor of making people feel good about their limited abilities.

[milod]

First measure...

 

While I tend to agree pretty much...

 

There remains another factor. A friend played bass with road bands for like 20 years.

 

But according to him, he ain't a bass player, he's an entertainer.

 

m