pippy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 FWIW an architect (of 30+ years) mate of mine swears that 'The Fountainhead' is the truest book about architecture he has ever read... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 1361750161[/url]' post='1334101']People have dne odd things after being influencd by the Beatles as well as the christian bible. It's not what they read but their mindset to start with. You can't blame the Beatles' "Helter Skelter" for Charles Manson. True dat...today it's violent video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 More then just one...Robert John Bardo, John Hinckley Jr., Mark David Chapman,, I wonder why some people read a book an find such inspiration, the human mind is a dangerous weapon. I imagine they were troubled teens that connected with the loveless life that led Holden Claufield to follow his disillusioned idea of what real life was. I imagine they didn't pick up on the "real life isn't as romantic as it seems" message that normal people pick up on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Firstmeasure... I dunno... I think sometimes they have heard the extreme of the message that something is to be attacked with violence if it doesn't meet the American Declaration of Independence's "guarantee of life, liberty and happiness." Somewhere the word "pursuit" has been dropped. It reminds me of an angry letter to the editor claiming that Americans have a constitutional right not to be insulted. Sheesh. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Milod...I truly feel bad for our grandchildren's grandchildren. My grandkids have it tuff enough now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Kaiser... I have no kids or grandkids except by an odd sort of adoption one might accept when one's life and work bring him into contact with youngsters whose character brings an avuncular sort of affection. No kids? I saw the future we're now living and didn't care to put my own blood into such a world and what's yet to come. I feel sorry for what they inherit from our generation. Our parents gave us one with far better potential than we have made of it. In a broad view of the world, idealism exceeding realism is not a working prescription for any sort of positive results. That's what our generation did with its birthright for a world with better education, health, wealth and responsible citizenship for most everyone. Instead ... maniacs fly airliners into buildings for god, parents have to tell children they'll not likely have the home they were raised in, and education is only what government tests determine relevant regardless of centuries of learning that gave children in civil society a common foundation on which to support whatever path their lives might take - plus such additional training for one's lifework or lifeworks... Frankly I think the world has changed to enforce an education to make not good citizens, but rather good ants taking their places in the anthill with television and governmental-approved foodstuffs reenacting the bread and circuses of populations of Roman antiquity. I'm cynical. Have been for close to 50-55 years which is, of course, why there aren't kids or grandkids running around this earth. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 As a avid reader I think it's amazing what the average person has not read especially today when almost everything is available to anyone that can sit at a PC. As for the Serial Killer and the Catcher in The Rye connection, personally I doubt if it was even there. There is nothing the human mind much less the press like more then a good conspiracy theory and realistically the crazies tend to copy the other crazies when they saw that it gave them the fame or infamy they craved so much in there deluded and empty lives. In regards to what we used to read like most things that took more than thirty seconds, or that can not be accessed through your phone there is no interest anymore. It really struck home not long ago when I went into a new store that sold among other things Leather bound books. I saw a beautiful set of books that included The Ovid, The Iliad, The Bounty, Il Principe, Beloved, Metamorphoses, On The Road and many others they were really nice looking and I walked over and opened one to see if I liked the Paper and the font and it was blank plain paper! I thought wow that's a error you don't often see. I opened a few more and they were all blank paper with decorative covers. A person that worked there walked but and I asked what they were journals or ??? he looked at me like I was crazy and said no there for libraries. Then I looked at him blankly and he said people like to have them on their shelves but they cost less as blanks, and nobody really reads those they are just for looks. Yep I just turned around and left the store just shaking my head. I mean damn if you want a book for a library who the hell would put blanks instead of the printed books? bBt honestly when you think about it thats kind of the world we live in now. Sadly we live in a time when the great literary works are mentioned or shown in some way the average even educated person will probably tell you which version of the movie they liked best. Not even realizing it was a book. You mentioned one of my favorites, Il Principe but if you asked anybody about The Prince in today's world they would never think of a political treatise book by Niccolò Machiavelli they would likely say yeah he was pretty good in Purple Rain and I heard he was good in concert. They would then go back to typing in there phone and checking messages in case anybody texted them in the three minutes since the looked at it last. As a perfect example I wonder how many of our children today would even know who Tolkien even is or that the Hobbit and the lord of the rings was an amazing set of books before it was a big budget special effects movie. I feel sorry for the children today they don't know the wonder of the imagination with a good book, heck most of them don't know what a library is or what a encyclopedia set would be for anymore they haven't even had to trade and hide a playboy magazine to see a nude women they grow up with so much information at their fingertips in way to many cases they have lost that thirst to research and learn somebody else will do it and post it soon why should they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 As a avid reader I think it's amazing what the average person has not read especially today when almost everything is available to anyone that can sit at a PC. In regards to what we used to read like most things that took more than thirty seconds, or that can not be accessed through your phone there is no interest anymore. They would then go back to typing in there phone and checking messages in case anybody texted them in the three minutes since the looked at it last. And then, I have to wonder.... Where is the rebellion? My generation was "anti-joiners". Or at least my circle of friends. We would be "against" anything popular. Be it music, cars, rules, politics, whatever. We smoked cigarettes, then we smoked pot, then when everybody else started doing it, we quit... Everybody now seems to jump into My Space, Facebook, Twitter, whatever the rage of the moment happens to be. Facebook goes against every grain of my being. I wouldn't put my personal life there for love or money. I get it for kids, and for women, but a grown man with a Facebook account spells LOSER to me. I wouldn't have a Youtube account if I wasn't hoping Toby Keith would find and record one of my songs. (What the hell is wrong with his "people".......? ) The college students are force fed a liberal agenda and they ACCEPT IT..... They BELIEVE guns kill people. I watch the "sheeple" in total amazement. THEY pulled it off, and for that I tip my hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Murph...I never protested anything...too much apathy on my part. Too busy holding down two and three jobs at a time. Never did any drugs or alcohol, and quit smoking cigarettes 11 years ago when I couldn't carry my amp more than twenty feet without coughing up a lung. I've never been on My Space or Facebook. The Gibson Forum and a few Hobby sites are all I frequent. I think the rebels have matured. They are our generation and we are tired...we've had out turn. Too bad nobody is willing to pick up the gauntlet and run with it. Then again maybe they have...I'm just so far out of the loop I wouldn't be aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R.M.30! Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I hearby decry that this thread is going to be blocked at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 That's what our generation did with its birthright for a world with better education, health, wealth and responsible citizenship for most everyone. Instead ... maniacs fly airliners into buildings for god, parents have to tell children they'll not likely have the home they were raised in, and education is only what government tests determine relevant regardless of centuries of learning that gave children in civil society a common foundation on which to support whatever path their lives might take - plus such additional training for one's lifework or lifeworks... Frankly I think the world has changed to enforce an education to make not good citizens, but rather good ants taking their places in the anthill with television and governmental-approved foodstuffs reenacting the bread and circuses of populations of Roman antiquity. I agree with everything here 100%. I'd say a whole lot more but that would just ensure the previous post would be an accurate forecast. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.R.M.30! Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Go ahead, The Pippy and state your views on this subject matter. If there is anything we've learned from the OP it is that one shouldn't put to much stock into predicting the future which is an open-ended abyss. Predict AND act in the present for the hope of a brighter future! B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Go ahead, The Pippy and state your views on this subject matter. "The Pippy"? That's funny right there! Re-read Milo and K-B's posts especially. They say pretty much everything in the round. All I could offer would be 'Local Infill' with regards the UK as opposed to the USA. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 JRM... Two factors here and why I hope it won't be "sealed" or omitted. 1. For ages, literally thousands of years, elder generations have decried the pathways they perceived being followed by the younger generations. Many of us writing here are far from being kids by much of any definition - although I've a friend or two near 90 who will tease me that I am. 2. I can't think of a generation in western European culture since the end of the Roman empire that has more challenges than today's "kids." Let's examine #2 a bit. Just in my lifetime population has roughly doubled. I can tell you that doing the same work, my functional income is significantly lower than it was in 1975. Significantly. I'd suggest at best 2/3. It's not an uncommon complaint nor an uncommon trend among many callings that still employ trained folks in numbers. One might argue this or that, but the fact remains that today's teen will not likely have the home and personal transportation, "toys" and general freedom I enjoyed in the 1970s. In fact, some perspectives now are telling them that they should not have such because they aren't "right." As populations increase and concentrate, the culture and even concept of "freedom" is changed by logistics of management of those populations' basic needs and some entertainment. "Bread and circuses," if you will. Ain't changed much from Rome. Why don't I don't see that as "political?" Concerns about a lessening of common "cultural literacy" in western European culture has long been a topic of concern by political folks regardless of their "bent." E.g., traditional leftists tend to believe that a good traditional education will tilt folks to the left; their counterparts on the right tend to believe the opposite. Both once informally agreed on a basic knowledge base and common set of rules that define logical argument. Rather than logic, our entertainment-oriented media now ask for opinions... "What do you 'feel' about this issue?" There can be no logical discussion when "education" does not teach logic. Don't believe me: Read Aristotle on logic and rhetoric, Thucydides, Plutarch... Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France," Plato's Republic. Compare what you read to what you now see and hear. Neither "right" nor "left" own logic and historic examples. Yet without them, "politics" are just a game of chess to establish mastery, not ideals of any stripe. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 And then, I have to wonder.... Where is the rebellion? My generation was "anti-joiners". Or at least my circle of friends. We would be "against" anything popular. Be it music, cars, rules, politics, whatever. We smoked cigarettes, then we smoked pot, then when everybody else started doing it, we quit... Everybody now seems to jump into My Space, Facebook, Twitter, whatever the rage of the moment happens to be. Facebook goes against every grain of my being. I wouldn't put my personal life there for love or money. I get it for kids, and for women, but a grown man with a Facebook account spells LOSER to me. I wouldn't have a Youtube account if I wasn't hoping Toby Keith would find and record one of my songs. (What the hell is wrong with his "people".......? ) The college students are force fed a liberal agenda and they ACCEPT IT..... They BELIEVE guns kill people. I watch the "sheeple" in total amazement. THEY pulled it off, and for that I tip my hat. A musician without a Facebook Page is a musician without a gig. I my opinion, that's a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Firstmeasure... Yeah, I think Facebook or at least Youtube. OTOH, I think they almost should be run from a different "home" computer address that has nothing really "personal" on it and set up with great care. I hadda have a Facebook page three or four years ago for work purposes and I set it up pretty much as I stated above. I check the oddball email address every six months whether I need to or not. Pretty much ditto Youtube. Were I to be marketing myself as an act at this point - yupper, definitely a facebook page with entry to vids of one sort or another. For now though... naaah. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 AHA!!!! Thats why I can't finda gig in this one-horse town...no Facebook page. Now that I know the secret...I'm gonna get a gig I'm gonna get a gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Kaiser... All kidding aside, in terms both of advertising and "news" bits, a web page of some sort is almost mandatory nowadays. News and ad desks have enough crud on them that when production begins, you head for the web page, press kit, etc. From a press perspective, the web page is better. You get a clean bio, press quality pix for ad or news promo, decent enough music quality to do a radio or tv clip with or without the video. From a "selling the act" perspective, it doesn't hurt to show hundreds of "friends" on a Facebook page. It's a different marketing world. Even a CD with the above material doesn't really make it because it requires a cd slot on a computer and - horrid as this sounds - the effort of putting a cd into the slot 'stedda just clicking on a url in an email. The good thing is that it's quite inexpensive; the not so good thing is the design, clips, photos, etc., etc., to look pro... We're both in one-horse towns. Well... given we have a rodeo season, almost a more horse than people town. But it's still basically bookings at the bars are a combination of word of mouth and web with a few known local exceptions. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Facebook goes against every grain of my being. I wouldn't put my personal life there for love or money. I get it for kids, and for women, but a grown man with a Facebook account spells LOSER to me. Wow...did I miss the sexism here or what? I have a fb accont, log on to it every two or three days to "like" artists that are trying to make it, to say hi to my uncle abroad, but nothing else. My information is all fake. Only those who know me (14 users) know it is me. Even the email I used to create the FB acc is not visited...a fake made email for FB. So why is it that what is beneath a "grown man" suits children and women just fine, Murph? @ milod I agree that the education is doing what the news (entertainment) industry is doing...keeping kids blinded. It is easy because people don't look outside screens. "The TV said it, it must be true," "my internet friends said..." "the internet said." There was a drug bust...a BIG bust in my neighborhood...not on the news. I found out going on a walk and talking to a neighbor. What could be the solution? The gap between those who have acces to internet and fancy phones and those who are poor and can't keep up is starting to scare me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Izzy... "The gap between those who have access to internet and fancy phones and those who are poor and can't keep up is starting to scare me." That's with justification and yet... I'm not sure that "can't keep up" isn't their fault as much or more as a system that allows them to believe they are poor and can't keep up. Consider that Meriwether Lewis for example had functionally no formal education whatsoever, yet was an aide to Thomas Jefferson in the White House and was an exceptional naturalist for his time as well as mastering many other talents and skills of his era. No, I think much of the gap has far less to do with cash as with familial and cultural emphasis on learning regardless that they come from a line in poverty. That's the basis of much learning, the desire to get out of a small vision and into a larger one. Plato's Republic has the famed "allegory of the cave" I recommend to those who've never read it. It explains education vs training, if one wishes truly to understand the metaphor. http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.8.vii.html The Latin root of the word "education" means, "to lead out from." There's no mention of specific tools, simply a matter of leading one out of oneself and into a world that allows discernment. Unfortunately today's academia often seems more of a training school used as a job requirement by those who don't necessarily have any other way of separating candidates. I have a nephew who's an accomplished civil engineer and leader both in a civilian and military sense. But I'm uncertain the degree to which one should ascribe his abilities to a very fine engineering school or to the National Guard and U.S. Army that took in a 17-year-old and taught him to build bridges, how and why they work. A local family I know rather well is one of immigrant parents, the father a logger the mother a stay-at-home. As her children graduated high school and headed to college, she concluded her GED complete to required writing in English. I'd say there's no question why the children are well en route to success. Although the originals are not popular in today's educational environment, those original McGuffey Readers introduced students to a wide range of thought regardless that it was rather moralistic in a Calvinist sense. Don't forget that the rural one-room school eighth grade graduate of the 19th and first half of the 20th century had in ways a broader education than today's high school graduate. Don't forget either that current testing fads have been crafted in hopes of ensuring high school grads could read, write and figure, know a bit of American and world history and American government. Oddly that was the curriculum up to eighth grade in rural one-room schools up to WWII. For what it's worth, I'll add that it's being revisited as a concept for schools today and my local alternative high school is a pilot project for it, even as kids are required to work at least part time if not full time. I once taught a class in standard English diction and grammar to beginning martial arts instructors who had only high school and for several, trade school backgrounds. It required a rethinking of the language for several who had strong "regional" dialects, a relearning of the physical action of speech for another. In retrospect from following their lives for several years thereafter, I believe the diction and grammar training did far more to enrich their personal lives and careers than their technical introduction to martial arts as proficient instructors. Classical education emphasized initially what's called the trivium and quadrivium. The trivium was made up of grammar, logic and rhetoric and was for younger children and/or beginners in education. Obviously their study required reading, writing, almost certainly languages... The quadrivium included arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy. Again, the studies in these "seven liberal arts" obviously were far, far beyond the current use of the terms. By the time one encountered the quadrivium, one quite likely had been reading both in Latin and Greek as well as their native tongue, be it English, German, Spanish, Italian, French... whatever. Geometry and music are tangent in a number of ways. How is that so? What said Vetruvius of such things? Modern application for the poor? Nearly every library has Aristotle on logic and rhetoric. Nearly every child who wishes to speak with grammatical precision and national standard educated dialect can learn to do so simply by listening to news commentators on radio or television regardless that they may be spouting "spin." Arithmetic? Heavens, even a low-end drug dealing criminal needs that skill. Bottom line to this is that if one wishes to become educated - led out from childish perspectives and perceptions - one must seek it and want it. That desire can come from encouragement by the family and culture around him or her or in rebellion against it. It cannot arise from apathy or defeatism - and it must be understood to make one better appreciate oneself apart from such technical skills as might be used to improve one's own economic situation. It is a value of its own, and must be seen as such. If it then is a step up this economic ladder or that, fine. I might wonder in a sense whether the smartphones and such are not as much offering barriers to learning as tools to learn. I'll use here the argument I used with firearms: No tool has importance other than in its use. Those tools of smart phones and tablets have a social role, but not necessarily a learning role. They may even facilitate "jobs" as part of that social role. But they don't necessarily lead one out of Plato's cave. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 It used to be that philosophers learned science first. Rand is one who didn't feel that pesky requirement applied to herself. Her economic "theories" are simply folly. All I know is I took plenty of economics in Engineering School. The first thing we learned in EC102 is that everything has to jive with EC101. I leave the rest of the head scratching to y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 It used to be that philosophers learned science first. I thought it was fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Knowledge speaks.Wisdom listens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.