Wiggle room on Price of a new guitar?

[BirdMan81]

Hey guys...I'm in the market for a new acoustic...you all have most likely read my hummingbird dilemma thread. My next question is if a large store like Guitar Center has a guitar for MSRP about how much off should I expect to haggle them down. I haven't baught a new guitar in a very long time...just new a new vehicle....is it unreasonable to ask for 20% off MSRP? This guitar center has done a store transfer from Hollywood CA to Boston for me. The guy who set up the transfer said that if I decide not to buy it then they would just put it on their rack for sale. He also made the mistake of telling me the reason the northeast doesn't carry the Hummingbird Vintage is because it doesn't sell well up here....thoughts on how I should attack the buying process if I like the guitar? Sales guy also told me that If I bring in anything to trade in towards the deal...even as small as a pedal or something....they could give me 10% off the guitar.

[aliasphobias]

Just as in anything else it varies by model and popularity. They are unlikely to budge much on inventory they will likely move with or without your participation. 20% go for it, I don't think that is unreasonable or impolite. Each time I have bought a new instrument I have felt I could have gotten a better price but I have to feel like I got a fair deal to get out the wallet. You can always get the bridge pins out of your pocket after you have chiseled your best price and get the extra 10%.

Funny you mention new vehicles. My Grandfather used to say if you were allowed back at the dealership, you didn't try hard enough.

[stein]

I don't know. If one GC has something and another doesn't, my best guess would be the one that doesn't have it sold out.

 

But, if it IS the case they don't sell well there like the salesman told you, then all the more incentive for him to sell it to you.

 

My personal experience is, when negotiating, the less insulting and "hard" you are, the more likely THEY are to agree to what you want. I have has WAY more success asking nicely for a favor in asking for someone to sell for "less than it's worth" than trying to convince someone it's worth less than they are asking.

[RichG]

In the Martin world there is list price on their website. Then there is MAP. That's minimum advertised price. Its the lowest price a dealer can advertise. IIRC it's about 22% off list. Then there's the real selling price which can be almost 40% off list. About two years ago I bought a brand new Martin D28 Marquis from Mandolin Bros for 39% off Martin list price.

 

The problem with recent Gibson pricing is it's hard to tell what the difference is between "list" and "MAP" in the Gibson world.

 

I think GC would be overjoyed to sell you a guitar at 20% off. You can probably do better.

 

Why not use one of the on line vendors for a price check at least?

 

Rich

[OldCowboy]

Does ANYONE sell at MSRP?

[BirdMan81]

 

Why not use one of the on line vendors for a price check at least?

 

Rich

 

 

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not familiar with online vendors for guitars? You mean musicians friend or some other online retailer?

[RichG]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not familiar with online vendors for guitars? You mean musicians friend or some other online retailer?

 

Yes. There are a few. Most are supporters on AGF so you could find them there. I can't think of names right now but they are out there.

 

Rich

[RichG]

Sweetwater is another. Also Elderly.

 

Google "Gibson guitars for sale". Many results.

 

Rich

[BirdMan81]

Yes. There are a few. Most are supporters on AGF so you could find them there. I can't think of names right now but they are out there.

 

Rich

 

 

So musicians friend has the "list price" of a 2016 vintage hummingbird at 5K and change but their price is marked down to $4249...this is the same price that is on Gibsons website! So I take the number that is on Gibsons website as the MSRP....I could care less what the number musicians friend has maked down from. It could be 8K for all I care. Bottom line is musicians friend is selling that guitar for exactly the same amount as Gibsons website has it priced at...but musicians friend is just starting at a higher number and then "marking it down". It's just semantics....

 

So what you are saying is that I should be able to (assuming my negotiation skills are good) get 40% off the $4249 which would mean a price of $2549

 

Just for giggles here are some other breakdowns

 

20% off would be a price of $3400

25% - $3187

30% - $2975

35%- $2762

 

 

I can't imagine them selling it for $2549!!!!!

[Pittgibson45]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not familiar with online vendors for guitars? You mean musicians friend or some other online retailer?

If you request a quote from musicians friend, for example, you can then go to sweetwater and ask if they will beat it. Then take that price quote to guitar center and see if they will beat it. They might or might not but you can't lose out if they say no. Just be ready for some follow up sales calls from the online dealers. They don't say in writing that they will beat online quotes, they do say they will match any advertised price. That's why there is MAP. They also have 15% off coupons quite often, they aren't always good on everything though.

[BirdMan81]

If you request a quote from musicians friend, for example, you can then go to sweetwater and ask if they will beat it. Then take that price quote to guitar center and see if they will beat it. They might or might not but you can't lose out if they say no. Just be ready for some follow up sales calls from the online dealers. They don't say in writing that they will beat online quotes, they do say they will match any advertised price. That's why there is MAP. They also have 15% off coupons quite often, they aren't always good on everything though.

 

 

Ok so that's where my disconnect was....I just visited 5 online retailers and they all have this guitar priced to add to cart at $4249.00

 

So if I call them on the phone you are saying They will offer it at a lower price?

[stein]

Good questions.

 

I think people in the guitar world got so used to the idea of MSRP NEVER being a realistic price anymore, the term was replaced with MAP. I wonder.

[Pittgibson45]

Ok so that's where my disconnect was....I just visited 5 online retailers and they all have this guitar priced to add to cart at $4249.00

 

So if I call them on the phone you are saying They will offer it at a lower price?

Right, musicans friend might tell you they have a current offer of 15% off. Then you call sweetwater and tell them what the other price was and see if they will beat it. If they say no, then move on and it didn't cost anything but a little time. Always call and talk to someone. Some people won't ever consider actually buying from an online dealer, but you can always send it back for a full refund, or just try to get the best price you can at a shop.

[Cougar]

Ok so that's where my disconnect was....I just visited 5 online retailers and they all have this guitar priced to add to cart at $4249.00

So if I call them on the phone you are saying They will offer it at a lower price?

 

So I'd call that the going price - the only one that matters. You should be able to get 15% off of that. 20% - probably not. It's like, "What discount can you get me?" It'd probably help if you got one of their 15% off coupons (which I get practically daily in email from GC), although they list almost every brand it's not supposed to work on. Still seems to work. Of course, you'll be paying sales tax if it's not a strictly online purchase.

[bayoubengal1954]

So musicians friend has the "list price" of a 2016 vintage hummingbird at 5K and change but their price is marked down to $4249...this is the same price that is on Gibsons website! So I take the number that is on Gibsons website as the MSRP....I could care less what the number musicians friend has maked down from. It could be 8K for all I care. Bottom line is musicians friend is selling that guitar for exactly the same amount as Gibsons website has it priced at...but musicians friend is just starting at a higher number and then "marking it down". It's just semantics....

 

So what you are saying is that I should be able to (assuming my negotiation skills are good) get 40% off the $4249 which would mean a price of $2549

 

Just for giggles here are some other breakdowns

 

20% off would be a price of $3400

25% - $3187

30% - $2975

35%- $2762

 

 

I can't imagine them selling it for $2549!!!!!

 

In the Martin World the discounts are based on MSRP, which I take to mean the $5000 figure. So, in your example

 

40% off would be a sales price of $3000

35%-$3250

30%-$3500

25%-$3750

20%-$4000

 

Using Cougar's method of $15 off off the $4249, which to me is more in line with a MAP, the price would be $3611.65 which is just north of 30% off of MSRP. At 20% off it would be $3407.20, which is just south of 30% off of MSRP. I would try to get it in the $3000 to $3400 area myself (maybe start at the lower end and be willing to pay up to $3400). You've got nothing to lose. Good luck!

[KHT]

Here is the way I approach it ... you almost always will see a dealer show the same price you see on Gibson's web site. If I can negotiate another 15%-18% from that I figure I got a good deal. Some dealers will show their asking price (same as Gibson's web site) and further show a higher price thereby reflecting their price as a discount from that. For instance, I was looking at a guitar the dealer advertised as $2,349 (same as Gibson), which they showed as a 22% discount from the list of $3,008. So I offered a price that was another 18% lower for a total reduction of 40% from the high list. It is all in how you approach the negotiating. I take nothing for granted and don't assume I am entitled to a further discount ("Would you be able to do...", "Could you do...", etc.).

[bayoubengal1954]

Here is the way I approach it ... you almost always will see a dealer show the same price you see on Gibson's web site. If I can negotiate another 15%-18% from that I figure I got a good deal. Some dealers will show their asking price (same as Gibson's web site) and further show a higher price thereby reflecting their price as a discount from that. For instance, I was looking at a guitar the dealer advertised as $2,349 (same as Gibson), which they showed as a 22% discount from the list of $3,008. So I offered a price that was another 18% lower for a total reduction of 40% from the high list. It is all in how you approach the negotiating. I take nothing for granted and don't assume I am entitled to a further discount ("Would you be able to do...", "Could you do...", etc.).

 

Exactly. If you end up with 40% off of that list or MSRP, then that is about the best you can hope for a new one. You negotiated a great deal, IMO. Only once was I able to do better than that on a new guitar. I was able to get a new Martin Jeff Tweedy 00-DB from a store in Maryland (I live in New Orleans) for 43.8% off of MSRP. I think it was only because that model was not selling well for them and they wanted to move it (lucky for me I love the guitar!).

[fortyearspickn]

Musicians Friend and Guitar Center have the same price because they are, on paper, the same company.

[jvi]

seems to me that msrp used to be just a factory starting point and actual selling price was allways aprroximately 33% less- maybe "the times they are a changin"

PS -can you folks in the USA get a better price from a canadian shop with our dollar being so low? ie long and mcquade or canadas best vintage and new dealer Folkway Music in Guelph Ont - no affiliation- Im a west coaster not in the biz

[modoc_333]

So musicians friend has the "list price" of a 2016 vintage hummingbird at 5K and change but their price is marked down to $4249...this is the same price that is on Gibsons website! So I take the number that is on Gibsons website as the MSRP....I could care less what the number musicians friend has maked down from. It could be 8K for all I care. Bottom line is musicians friend is selling that guitar for exactly the same amount as Gibsons website has it priced at...but musicians friend is just starting at a higher number and then "marking it down". It's just semantics....

 

So what you are saying is that I should be able to (assuming my negotiation skills are good) get 40% off the $4249 which would mean a price of $2549

 

Just for giggles here are some other breakdowns

 

20% off would be a price of $3400

25% - $3187

30% - $2975

35%- $2762

 

 

I can't imagine them selling it for $2549!!!!!

 

 

 

Ok, let's see if we can clean this up a little bit.

 

No you aren't likely to get 40% of of MAP (the 4249 number). That would be crazy.

 

here are the numbers:

 

Cost- What the manufacturer charged the store.

 

MAP- The price you see posted on every website and most price tags in most stores. Stands for "Minimum Advertised Price" or the lowest that an item can be advertised publicly at.

 

MSRP- Also called "retail" or "list". this USED to be the price that everything was tagged at. (though often the margins were lower and closer to MAP. sometimes not)

 

 

These days, if you go to a store, you would have a hard time finding anyone that could tell you what MSRP is on an item. We just don't care. we never tag guitars at that. For most brands, it has nothing to do with how much the guitar costs (no matter what the internet says) and it's just generally a useless number.

 

MAP is the "new retail". this is what everything gets tagged at. another piece of bad information on the internet: to make connections between MAP and Cost for different brands. All brands have different amounts of margin if tagged at MAP. even at that, different products from the same company will have different margins. most just don't use clean math. You also have to factor in "weighted" or "landed" cost. sometimes we have to pay shipping, sometimes we don't. sometimes we get an extra deal, sometimes we don't. all of these things come into play when deciding what the price will be in the end.

 

some items in the store have great margins. some have practically nothing. every store has to maintain a healthy margin to stay in business. selling everything for 5% over cost isn't a good long term strategy. there are some things that have exactly that though. and we carry them only because it's something we are expected to have. We hope to make up the difference on another item while you are in the store for the first one.

 

 

 

so, having said all of that..... the confusion between MAP and MSRP..... well that comes from the newest chapter in the saga. it used to be only MSRP, then there was MAP and MSRP, and now many brands are getting down to just MAP. and no, that doesn't mean the old MSRP margins. it's the same MAP margins as before.... just getting rid of that number no one pays attention to. the problems comes when comparing different brands. Martin puts MSRP on their website. Gibson and Fender put MAP. it really makes Martin look like it's crazy expensive when comparing similar models. or it makes you think that you should get more of a discount off of the Gibson than is reasonable (because you think you are looking at MSRP when it's really MAP.) The only industry will eventually get on board with "MAP only". it will just take a little longer.

 

 

so..... back to your original question:

 

well, of course i won't give a straight answer! haha. it all depends on what you buy and who you buy it from. what's is WORTH? that's the real question. a deep discount off of the tag could still be a bad deal if the guitar is no good. MAP might be great if it's a hard to find piece and is "the one".

 

40% off of MAP isn't something you should ever count on. Make sure you know what MAP is so you at least know you aren't paying MORE than you should. just make sure that you are happy when you walk out, and not as a comparison to other peoples deals.... just that you are happy with yours.

 

here is something I like to say to people...... there is only 1 good deal and that is for both parties to walk away feeling happy about the deal but with a little bit of wonder if they could have done a little better. that's the perfect balance. if either side totally sticks it to the other then that's not actually a good deal. it's a mirage. not good for the customer because things like that will kill your local store and you won't have them to come back to. not good for the store because sticking it to the customer isn't a good way to build a long term customer.

fair all around.... the only way to go. both sides need to survive the deal.

 

just my ramblings from the other side.

 

 

 

 

Keith

[BirdMan81]

Keith! Thanks for this info...it's really helpful! Here is some more info I found out today....I had a member PM me the name of a smaller store where they got a very good deal on a Gibson in the past....I called them and got a very good price quote on a 2016 Hummingbird Vintage shipped from across the country to my state (Maine). Only problem is that I would be buying the guitar sight unseen, without test playing it. According to them they have a great return policy if I'm not happy. They also told me that they would setup and inspect the guitar before shipping it.

 

As I stated earlier, I'm also currently working with Guitar Center in Boston (Who was able to locate a 2016 Hummingbird Vintage from Hollywood CA and do a store to store transfer to Boston so I could drive down and play it, with no obligation to buy.) Not wanting to negotiate with them until I got down there face to face, I was curious what another big "box guitar" store would do if I hit them with the great price the small retailer gave me, I called Sweet water......they would not come down off their $3600 price....the smaller shop was offering me the guitar shipped to Maine for $3100!

 

I would like to buy the guitar from guitar center (if I like it) but since sweet water wouldn't budge on their price it makes me think the best GC would do would be the same $3600 figure...

 

They did tell me that if I don't buy it from them it would go on their shelf, and I know this model doesn't sell well up here because no GC even stocks it. So maybe that alone will be enough motivation for them to me the $3100 price....thoughts?

 

 

Also how is a small local shop able to offer the guitar for much less then a big box store like GC? I thought big chains got larger quantities and got them for cheaper...hence better pricing?

[bayoubengal1954]

Ok, let's see if we can clean this up a little bit.

 

No you aren't likely to get 40% of of MAP (the 4249 number). That would be crazy.

 

here are the numbers:

 

Cost- What the manufacturer charged the store.

 

MAP- The price you see posted on every website and most price tags in most stores. Stands for "Minimum Advertised Price" or the lowest that an item can be advertised publicly at.

 

MSRP- Also called "retail" or "list". this USED to be the price that everything was tagged at. (though often the margins were lower and closer to MAP. sometimes not)

 

 

These days, if you go to a store, you would have a hard time finding anyone that could tell you what MSRP is on an item. We just don't care. we never tag guitars at that. For most brands, it has nothing to do with how much the guitar costs (no matter what the internet says) and it's just generally a useless number.

 

MAP is the "new retail". this is what everything gets tagged at. another piece of bad information on the internet: to make connections between MAP and Cost for different brands. All brands have different amounts of margin if tagged at MAP. even at that, different products from the same company will have different margins. most just don't use clean math. You also have to factor in "weighted" or "landed" cost. sometimes we have to pay shipping, sometimes we don't. sometimes we get an extra deal, sometimes we don't. all of these things come into play when deciding what the price will be in the end.

 

some items in the store have great margins. some have practically nothing. every store has to maintain a healthy margin to stay in business. selling everything for 5% over cost isn't a good long term strategy. there are some things that have exactly that though. and we carry them only because it's something we are expected to have. We hope to make up the difference on another item while you are in the store for the first one.

 

 

 

so, having said all of that..... the confusion between MAP and MSRP..... well that comes from the newest chapter in the saga. it used to be only MSRP, then there was MAP and MSRP, and now many brands are getting down to just MAP. and no, that doesn't mean the old MSRP margins. it's the same MAP margins as before.... just getting rid of that number no one pays attention to. the problems comes when comparing different brands. Martin puts MSRP on their website. Gibson and Fender put MAP. it really makes Martin look like it's crazy expensive when comparing similar models. or it makes you think that you should get more of a discount off of the Gibson than is reasonable (because you think you are looking at MSRP when it's really MAP.) The only industry will eventually get on board with "MAP only". it will just take a little longer.

 

 

so..... back to your original question:

 

well, of course i won't give a straight answer! haha. it all depends on what you buy and who you buy it from. what's is WORTH? that's the real question. a deep discount off of the tag could still be a bad deal if the guitar is no good. MAP might be great if it's a hard to find piece and is "the one".

 

40% off of MAP isn't something you should ever count on. Make sure you know what MAP is so you at least know you aren't paying MORE than you should. just make sure that you are happy when you walk out, and not as a comparison to other peoples deals.... just that you are happy with yours.

 

here is something I like to say to people...... there is only 1 good deal and that is for both parties to walk away feeling happy about the deal but with a little bit of wonder if they could have done a little better. that's the perfect balance. if either side totally sticks it to the other then that's not actually a good deal. it's a mirage. not good for the customer because things like that will kill your local store and you won't have them to come back to. not good for the store because sticking it to the customer isn't a good way to build a long term customer.

fair all around.... the only way to go. both sides need to survive the deal.

 

just my ramblings from the other side.

 

 

 

 

Keith

 

Keith--Thanks for your perspective as a seller. You are correct that on the Gibson website they only list MAP. For instance the Standard J-45 (I'm choosing a model that is not a unique, hard to find piece just for this example) is listed at $2399, which is the tag price you will see at a store or the price listed online at places such as Sweetwater. Where it gets interesting to me is that Sweetwater will list above the sales price a "Retail Price" of $3120, which "seems" to suggest a MSRP even though that price is NOT listed on the Gibson website. Confusing, eh? If one were to get the guitar at 40% off of that "Retail Price", the selling price would be $1872, which to me would be a good price (maybe so good as to be unattainable). I'm doubting one could do better. Not asking you to give away any secrets. Just musing. :) I agree it does no one any good to pound down a price from your well stocked and staffed local store. If they have to survive by not quite going as low as the online giants, we should consider buying from them anyway as an investment in our music community. Thanks for all your hard work!

[bayoubengal1954]

Keith! Thanks for this info...it's really helpful! Here is some more info I found out today....I had a member PM me the name of a smaller store where they got a very good deal on a Gibson in the past....I called them and got a very good price quote on a 2016 Hummingbird Vintage shipped from across the country to my state (Maine). Only problem is that I would be buying the guitar sight unseen, without test playing it. According to them they have a great return policy if I'm not happy. They also told me that the would setup and inspect the guitar befor shipping it.

 

As I stated earlier I'm also currently working with Guitar Center in Boston (Who was able to locate a 2016 Hummingbird Vintage from Hollywood CA and do a store to store transfer to Boston so I could drive down and play it, with no obligation to buy.) not wanted to negotiate with them until I got down there, I was curious what another big "box guitar" store would do if I hit them with the great price the small retailer that was suggested by a member here gave me. Sweet water would not come down of there $3600 price....the smaller shop was offering me the guitar shipped to Maine for $3100!

 

I would like to buy the guitar from guitar center (if I like it) but since sweet water wouldn't budge on their price it makes me think the best GC would do would be the same $3600 figure...

 

They did tell me that if I don't buy it from them it would go on their shelf, and I know this model doesn't sell well up here because no GC even stocks it. So maybe that alone will be enough motivation for them to me the $3100 price....thoughts?

 

 

Also how is a small local shop able to offer the guitar for much less then a big box store like GC? I thought big chains got larger quantities and got them for cheaper...hence better pricing?

 

If you like that guitar then the $3100 would be a great price. Almost 40% off of the $5000 "Retail Price" (or MSRP, who knows ). I hope you end up happy!

[MissouriPicker]

Guitar Center will match a better price from a genuine store. Have them match it if they want your business. I've had them match prices off of the internet.

[58 Relic]

When I bought my guitar last year I looked on the Internet to get an idea of the average street price then I asked around for recommendations of good Gibson dealers ( as I was quite new to the area . I then asked myself the following questions .

Is it no good getting a big discount if the after sales service is rubbishDo I like the Store I am giving my money to How does the store look after the guitars on display Do they have a good set up policy by a good approved luthier Can you play the guitar in isolation ( not around a load of electrics and overdrive pedals ) Finally are they acoustic guitarists

When I bought my 45 I was cheeky with the first offer but after haggling I got about £150 of the ticket price , £1425 .00 for a new J45 standard plus a free Hurcules stand and a couple of sets of strings.One thing I would never do again is part ex a guitar as part of the deal , you are then at the mercy of the store and not in control , cash is king .Biggest problem I have , when I buy a NEW guitar I expect just that not a guitar that has been played to death by visitors to the store over weeks or months so I would pay a little extra for a guitar straight out of the box and set up to my requirements .