Timing and singing

[the other side]

Have any of y'all experienced timing situations when you play and sing solo without any aid of a drum machine or metrnomes? Practicing or just jamming at friends houses etc...?

[stein]

Yup

[Jim Wilson]

Yep, it's really quite common.

[Rambler]

Nothing that cant be solved by practice. Taping what you do is good, to see if you are lagging or rushing. If your are the problem, set a rhythm with your foot, **** a bass note instead of a chord on the 1 to set a down beat. Its its a bad member, we'll, again, taping and gentle encouragement. It doesn't always work out. Some pals of mine had to let a bandeau go who couldnt land his mando chops on the '2'. Ah, singing and the beat. The guitar is there to accompany the voice, so you need to adapt what ever you are playing--fingerpicking, strums --to best support the voice. Try to have a sense of where you are coming in vocally and let the guitar part follow. You need to know where the 'one' is and where voice accompaniment fits in. Taping can help you sort this out.

[MissouriPicker]

Knowing your material will certainly help, but the tapping is great for your timing. I've never used a metronome for anything, but I do usually tap my foot to the beat. About two months ago I bought a thing called a porchboard off of Ebay for 75 bucks and find that it's really pretty good for keeping time and adding a good thump to the background of a song. The percussion sound is stronger than just tapping my foot. With it, every time I tap my foot, the sound comes through the speaker and I focus more on what I'm doing. It all kind of comes to you pretty naturally once you start doing the tapping. Might throw you off a little when you first start, but it really will help you.

[MorrisrownSal]

Always...

Play with others as much as possible, and use a metronome (phone app?)

One thing I do... I figured 95% of folks I play in front of aren't listening to guitar nuance and perfection in songs. I adjust patterns, keys, and simplify when I can, so that I can sing comfortably along. My buddy calls me Mr. 85% because I get about 85% of the way to the original when I copy it.

[kidblast]

this takes time to master.

 

the biggest challenge is not to rush things, especially if your trying to entertain, and your nerves get the better of you.

 

you just have to "feel" that groove you are going for, and staying true to it.

 

a metronome will help, playing with people will help,

 

but it just takes time to get all that stuff working together.

 

practice,practice,practice,..

[fretplay]

I haven't played with drums for years. All my playing and singing is on me time. I have on occasions imported a song from youtube into my recording system and then sang along to that but I prefer to make my own time. I play regularly as a threesome and then I follow the rhythm guitarist.

[capmaster]

Like Kidblast said, it takes time to master.

 

I sing lead vocals of cover songs while drumming or playing bass or occasionally guitar, and of original songs while playing guitar or sometimes bass since decades. In fact, every single song is a new challenge, regardless if it's covered or written by myself or in collaboration with bandmates.

 

The approach working best for me is practicing the instrument parts until I achieve a high degree of automation. Initially I just imagine the vocal line while playing, then I begin adapting my breath to the requirements for singing. Finally I start singing while playing the same time. This further improves playing without thinking about and memorizing music and words until they work by heart.

 

I always do the various parts of a song one by one. Joining verses, bridges and choruses together may take me practicing the transitions on the instrument only first. Eventually I add my vocals. All of these steps work best for me practicing loops while staying with tempo and beat.

 

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never needed a metronome or tapping my feet. The latter is determined by the groove when I'm drumming anyway, or by occasionaly using a wah-wah when playing electric. However, changing tempo on purpose sometimes comes as a serious challenge to me.

[blindboygrunt]

Geez that's complicated capmaster.

 

You never just blurted a song out ?!

 

😮😄

[Allie]

Like Kidblast said, it takes time to master.

 

I sing lead vocals of cover songs while drumming or playing bass or occasionally guitar, and of original songs while playing guitar or sometimes bass since decades. In fact, every single song is a new challenge, regardless if it's covered or written by myself or in collaboration with bandmates.

 

The approach working best for me is practicing the instrument parts until I achieve a high degree of automation. Initially I just imagine the vocal line while playing, then I begin adapting my breath to the requirements for singing. Finally I start singing while playing the same time. This further improves playing without thinking about and memorizing music and words until they work by heart.

 

I always do the various parts of a song one by one. Joining verses, bridges and choruses together may take me practicing the transitions on the instrument only first. Eventually I add my vocals. All of these steps work best for me practicing loops while staying with tempo and beat.

 

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never needed a metronome or tapping my feet. The latter is determined by the groove when I'm drumming anyway, or by occasionaly using a wah-wah when playing electric. However, changing tempo on purpose sometimes comes as a serious challenge to me.

Yup...as a matter of fact this guitar playing/singing thing would actually be rather easy if it were not for the fact that near impeccable timing is the one thing that is of utmost importance if you ever want to appear like anything other than a wannabe..

[kidblast]

 

You never just blurted a song out ?!

 

 

ah yea, I've probably been doing just that for some decades now..... :)

 

I don't usually have to think much about the playing, after close to 50 years of it, I would guess I could probably do that in a comma

 

for me, where I spend a bit of focus is breathing, having enough wind at the end of phrase, and then sucking in enough air for the next verse, this to me, also part of timing, but not the kind of timing that lends itself to tempo, or BPM and did I mention remembering words and key changes,, cuz I should have.. wait we were talking about timing... yea.. right..

[Jim Wilson]

Practice with a metronome.

[stein]

That's good stuff, cap. I bet if I did that, I might at least be in time...in tune, I can't stand the torture I cause myself singing to be able to practice.

 

Not that I play anymore...lol...but...

 

Anyway, when we make our own timing based on what we are doing or playing, we ALL have a tendency to miss the timing and not notice, because as we are relying on what we ourselves are playing, our brains are concentrating on what we are doing physically.

 

What takes practice, is to be able to make a sort of metronome in your head, and play according to THAT.

 

It's very much an awareness thing. When playing with others, it becomes apparent. When playing by yourself, if you don't notice or at least don't feel any work involved, chances are pretty good you are not playing with perfect timing.

 

Getting a metronome in your head is the same as counting, or as they say, "learn to count". Counting out loud, or in your head, "1..2..3..4.." is good practice. That can morph into uh..uh..uh..uh.., etc. Besides the obvious of knowing where the 1 is or the 4 is, there is an element of being AWARE there is a meter that is there, that sort of exist regardless of what YOU are playing or doing.

 

The other element, and taking it a bit further, is learning to figure out the actual rhythm. Not everything is 2/4, or 1..2..3..4... It could be 6/8 timing, or rather ONE..two...three...FOUR...five...six...In other words, a different time signature. Good to get hip on that.

 

Lastly, there is the groove, or "feel", and a LOT of musicians miss this unless they have learned. The in-between beats, the "ands", (One..and..two..and..) Half beats, then quarter beats. BUT...often times they might be triplets. ONE..and..uh..TWO..and..uh..THREE...and..uh..FOUR. The point to get there, is there is always an established groove in between the beats. That stuff in between the beats, may or may NOT be right on, but it SHOULD be consistent. In other words, it doesn't always land on a perfect half note or triplet, but where it DOES land is the same place all the time.

 

That last part above, that's the stuff that happens strumming a guitar, or the drummer grooving on the high-hat. Where a lot of musicians get in trouble, is sometimes everyone playing a different feel. A lot of drummers do this making fills, change the rhythm or feel during the fill that's different than the beat they established. A lot of guitar players will strum a different feel than what the drummer is doing.

[capmaster]

Geez that's complicated capmaster.

 

You never just blurted a song out ?!

 

Yep, just for fun, in merry rounds at a campfire or a lake shore. Anyway, always in a mood where perfection of performance is not a concern!

[capmaster]

Yup...as a matter of fact this guitar playing/singing thing would actually be rather easy if it were not for the fact that near impeccable timing is the one thing that is of utmost importance if you ever want to appear like anything other than a wannabe..

Very well stated. Most listeners can get into a groove rather fast, and in case they know the song, you have to do as a player and singer, too. That's life when performing live... ;)

[capmaster]

What takes practice, is to be able to make a sort of metronome in your head, and play according to THAT.

Very good statement.

 

 

That last part above, that's the stuff that happens strumming a guitar, or the drummer grooving on the high-hat. Where a lot of musicians get in trouble, is sometimes everyone playing a different feel. A lot of drummers do this making fills, change the rhythm or feel during the fill that's different than the beat they established. A lot of guitar players will strum a different feel than what the drummer is doing.

Monitoring oneself can be another problem. Playing tightly together with the drummer typically means a guitarist or bassist doesn't hear one's own string attacks. To accept this and live with it may take self-assurance and humility the same time.

[the other side]

Hey y'all thanks! All of the input is appreciated and at one time or another it happens to all of us. I have been playing for many years informally. I was just seeing if I have missed something along the way. I'll share this info with a couple of people I know. Haha there's nothing wrong with us guitar players, it's everybody else! Thanks (that was just a little humor).

[Rambler]

"The approach working best for me is practicing the instrument parts until I achieve a high degree of automation" MMV, but Stefan Grossman is on record as saying great like Rev Gray Davis always adjusted his guitar accompaniment to where he was going vocally. He did so in time, obviously, and had accomplished great control of his instrument. I think the the point is that the music needs to breathe and not to play like an automotan.

[capmaster]

"The approach working best for me is practicing the instrument parts until I achieve a high degree of automation" MMV, but Stefan Grossman is on record as saying great like Rev Gray Davis always adjusted his guitar accompaniment to where he was going vocally. He did so in time, obviously, and had accomplished great control of his instrument. I think the the point is that the music needs to breathe and not to play like an automotan.

Taking it to the extremes, imagine a person holding a guitar in hand for the first time ever. The first fretting and picking attempts won't reflect the very breath of music. A proficient player trying a piece of sheet music for the first time will be much closer.

 

See and hear the difference? Expression of feeling is based on the performer's factual abilities. Interaction and variation of either accompaniment and vocals take a certain degree of skills allowing for doing without thinking.

[Rambler]

"Interaction and variation of either accompaniment and vocals take a certain degree of skills allowing for doing without thinking." Oh, absolutely. But at any stage, I think itself helpful dos ee how the guitar relates to the voice , not as an isolated part (learning classical guitar and jazz, to an extent, might put you on the opposite track, where voice doesn't enter into it).

[tpbiii]

Timing for us is one of many enduring problems we encounter in our travels. What attracts us to music is the joy of spontaneous creation of music on the fly with musical friends. A good bluegrass jam or show has more moving parts than a Swiss watch, and which parts you are responsible for changes from song to song, group to group, and situation to situation. But the appeal of creating a one-time work of art -- possibly never done but once and done without a net -- is almost hypnotic. Of course you acquire a lot of ego bruises in the process, but they are seldom fatal.

 

Timing is just one of many challenges that must be faced. There are no drums in any of the music we do, and the main responsibility for the beat often falls to my wife who plays upright bass. The best overall quality of music is generally achieved when every member is playing simple stuff -- relative to themselves -- it may be very complex relative someone else. When it is all internalized, automatic and simple you can concentrate on nuance or just enjoy the experience. We once traded a guitars with a really famous musician known for his skill at complex and challenging materials. The guitar's case had a sticker on it -- it said "keep it simple."

 

Of course, pushing and pulling the beat is all part of musical expression -- but the underlying beat should not move in general. The great tendency in bluegrass -- which emphasizes the downbeat ("folk music in overdrive") -- is to speed up. This is not always bad -- on fast intricate instrumentals, it can add to the excitement of the music. But if it gets out of hand, the quality of the music deteriorates. The bass player has both a musical and a social obligation on deciding when to follow and when to challenge the beat from the lead player. And it gets automatic -- which can be bad too. Like I said, always a challenge.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[badbluesplayer]

If I think about the singing, I can keep good timing and both the singing and the guitaring are pretty good. But once I start thinking about playing the guitar too much I lose both the guitarability and the singatation. But that's just me and I have some mis-neurologitized discombobutility.

[EuroAussie]

Some really good advice here, especially from Capmaser and Stein - I think I might start using a metronome for singing to see how much it helps. Have used it in past for rhythm but not vocals.

 

I also like to split learning new song between the different parts, to get a really good feel for the verse and then chours which often are quite different.

 

I also wanted to share Justinguitars 10 step method for learning to sing and play together - BBG, ignore this post, not for you.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29w4RyBjugo

[blindboygrunt]

😳

 

Hey I need lessons as much as the next guy