Hypothetical question

[generaldreedle]

Let's say someone was taking lessons and starting to really like bluegrass flatpicking. What's the best Gibson to accommodate that?

[jedzep]

I'm not prejudiced, and like flat picking on any X Braced Gibson, you just have to settle with the volume and tone of what you're playing. Real bluegrass players like the jumbos and dreads because they're often competing to be heard.

 

Other than that.. nice low action makes it less work and more fun.

[jvi]

Id say a advanced jumbo, big guitar, long scale, rosewood, but why not get a Martin d 18 -28- or 45 and a Gibson ? ;)

[OldCowboy]

The loudest one you can find - and volume can vary from one to the next, model notwithstanding. It doesn't hurt to have a strong bass response. The best bluegrass Gibson I ever owned was a later model Heritage. Lots of folks here have way far more knowledge of current production models than I, and chances are they'll be able to point you in the right direction.

[CAMELEYE]

+1 on the Advanced Jumbo for bluegrass.

[kidblast]

I dunno for sure, as I've just recently acquired a SJ200, seriously it's a freaking cannon. no matter how hard you go at these, they stay right with you. I've got pretty big Taylor (GS Series) that I thought was loud, and while it's really a fine guitar, the SJ200 is in a class by it's self.

 

I'm sure AJ would do the trick, these guys know what they're talking about.

 

otoh, seems the staple setup for these guys however, seems to be Martins or am I missing something?

[OldCowboy]

True enough, Martin seems to be the standard among the bluegrass crowd. What I've noticed with my bluegrass friends, though they'd never admit it, is that finding the 'right' bluegrass Martin takes some shopping around. Seems that D-18, D-28, and D-35 consistency isn't as regular as Martin would have us believe when it comes to tone and volume. The D-41 is IMHO the most consistent of the lot - they are awesome! My personal favorites come from the OOOO designation, but they're not widely considered to be bluegrass instruments. Mahogany tops do not lend themselves to bluegrass, nor do OOO models.

[tpbiii]

This is a question I have pondered quite as to old guitars -- Martins and Gibsons from the 30s and 40s. The question that intrigued me was why were the iconic bluegrass instruments are Gibson early 20s Lloyd Loar mandolins, Gibson 30s flathead Mastertone banjos and Martin herringbone D-28s and not Gibson early 20s Lloyd Loar mandolins, Gibson 30s flathead Mastertone banjos and Gibson Advanced Jumbo? I spent quite a lot of time and treasure researching this question, and I wrote a blog article about it. Here is the link.

 

My conclusion was the AJ could have been a serious contender for the slot but there were just not enough of them in the 30s to have the required impact, and no other Gibson model from that period really excelled in the bluegrass role.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

 

[Murph]

Any one will work if you are close enough to the mic. !

[MissouriPicker]

Yeah, I tend to agree with Murph. Most any guitar will work if you're close enough to the mic. I think at a serious bluegrass jam, you're major competition in the noise department will be a banjo. Maybe an occasional mandolin. They're bright enough to be heard through most anything, but to me they don't drown out other instruments like a banjo that's a beast.

[OldCowboy]

Yeah, I tend to agree with Murph. Most any guitar will work if you're close enough to the mic. I think at a serious bluegrass jam, you're major competition in the noise department will be a banjo. Maybe an occasional mandolin. They're bright enough to be heard through most anything, but to me they don't drown out other instruments like a banjo that's a beast.

Agreed - you beat me to it by a few minutes! The banjo with attached resonator has gotta be the original Heavy Metal instrument....

[blindboygrunt]

I've never been to a bluegrass jam , I'm in Ireland , but I have a theory .

 

I've been to plenty of Irish sessions , some good some bad ... Free drink for musicians means that every Tom **** and Harry lifts their mothers tourist present bodhran off the kitchen wall and joins in , thinking it's all great craic and easy peasey , or hey I know three chords , how hard can it be . Hiding behind the music that folk have learnt and struggled with ....

 

I can't for the life of me think why a good bluegrass player in a good bluegrass session would need a loud guitar .... Sure it needs to be a certain volume but a guitarist needs to find his place in the mix ...

 

The reason I'm throwing my tuppence worth is because at a session , you get the guys who know what they're doing , and the guys who are there to learn and join in , and the guys who aren't the best so they think that loud is the way to be King **** .

 

And the type of guy who wants to be King **** without the chops to get there is also the kind of guy who thinks loudest is bestest .

The worlds a varied place but in some ways the same ..: Irish sessions , bluegrass session , whatever .

 

'I just bought a 'insert guitar name here' and wow this things a cannon !!!

 

I've never known why that would be a boast .

 

 

So , my message is - if you need a guitar that's really loud , you're either the poor guy with talent who is trying to get himself heard over the cacophony of hangers on and joiners in , or you're the idiot who knows that you don't have the chops and needs an ego boost . Get the loudest , biggest , fanciest looking guitar you can . And the guy who doesn't have the kajones to cut the mustard is the very same personality who blabs on the Internet .::::

 

 

 

 

Before I get things thrown at me , there are gentelmen everywhere . Both in Irish sessions and I'm sure in every other type ...

And sure , Irish and bluegrass sessions are rarely amped and usually involve a few revellers with a beer or two . So of course a reasonably loud guitarist needed .

 

This is not a slight on anyone who is involved with perfectly good session music , but , don't believe all you research , and know , or think about who's writing the advice .

[blindboygrunt]

Not allowed the word d!ck. That's what the stars replace

[EuroAussie]

You need to kill those annoying banjos, AJ is the only that can do the job.

[tpbiii]

I've been to plenty of Irish sessions , some good some bad ... Free drink for musicians means that every Tom **** and Harry lifts their mothers tourist present bodhran off the kitchen wall and joins in , thinking it's all great craic and easy peasey , or hey I know three chords , how hard can it be . Hiding behind the music that folk have learnt and struggled with ....

 

I can't for the life of me think why a good bluegrass player in a good bluegrass session would need a loud guitar .... Sure it needs to be a certain volume but a guitarist needs to find his place in the mix ...

 

Well it is always good to be polite and thoughtful, wherever you are of course. But traditional bluegrass is an entirely different animal than Irish session music or old time string band music as well. In those genres, all the instruments play together in a single wall of sound. Bluegrass structure is more like Dixieland Jazz in the sense that at every time there is generally one lead -- instrumental or vocal -- and the rest of the instruments play backup. The particular combination changes for every verse, chourus, and break. Because bluegrass has a set of rules that allows musicians to play seamlessly together even when they are strangers, people often use this property to jam and call it bluegrass. This is fine of course -- we do it ourselves -- but the result technically is not really bluegrass.

 

Here is an article about bluegrass jamming I wrote about 15 years ago. It was published in Bluegrass Unlimited Magazine in (I think) 1999. It has since been republished several hundred times in ten different languages and on every continent except Antarctica -- so there is a fair agreement with these principles. Here is a link.

 

In a traditional bluegrass jam, there is generally one rhythm guitar and sometimes a separate lead guitar. The rhythm guitar -- which plays in every epoch -- must be modulated to match the volume of the current music, but must be very loud at some points (among the loudest) to properly fulfill the rhythm role behind the (loud) lead instruments -- banjo, fiddle, mandolin, dobro, .... Further it must have a prominent loud mid-range (usually with a rosewood roar-growl) to provide the rhythm punch on the backbeat. At that role, both a D-28 and an AJ excels.

 

There is no guitar ever built that can compete in power with the other lead instruments head-to-head. It is good to be as loud as possible just to keep the level as consistent as possible, but there is a lot of modulation required when the guitar is in the lead. Modulation is also often required for vocals -- depends on the singer -- the musicians must change with the situation (every verse, every chorus, every lead break) to craft the session. But more than that, traditional bluegrass backup -- regardless of its loudness -- forms a very full spectrum. So for a lead guitar, it must have the right tonal properties to be heard in that context. RW is best, mahogany not as good but prettier, maple much less audible. This is just because of the spectral properties of the different guitars.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[MissouriPicker]

Well, all I can say is that this morning about 3AM, our neighbor was beating like crazy on our backdoor....and if I hadn't been up playing my banjo I'd have never heard him.

[blindboygrunt]

Forgive me Tom .

I admire and respect your knowledge and am not arguing at all

 

But I wouldn't say Irish music is a wall of sound , but , as bluegrass , has one particular instrument playing the lead/melody

[tpbiii]

Forgive me Tom .

I admire and respect your knowledge and am not arguing at all

 

But I wouldn't say Irish music is a wall of sound , but , as bluegrass , has one particular instrument playing the lead/melody

 

I defer to your expertise. What I was describing was an urban form of the music -- far from Ireland -- practice in one or two Irish Pubs in Atlanta. My experience is indeed limited.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[tpbiii]

Well, all I can say is that this morning about 3AM, our neighbor was beating like crazy on our backdoor....and if I hadn't been up playing my banjo I'd have never heard him.

 

Did you have a mic? Did he have a mic?

[Fullmental Alpinist]

This thread is absolutely great!

 

Y'all keep it up.

 

My knowledge of bluegrass is less than zero. But I've heard there is a characteristic ka-chunck (or something like that) to the rhythm guitar. Can anyone post a sample of a representative rhythm guitar sound?

[MissouriPicker]

Tpbiii, no need for me to use a mic with the banjo, but he could have used one. He's lucky I heard him.....lol

 

 

It's been a while since I've attended an actual "bluegrass" jam. However, every month we have an acoustic jam at our church and 30-40 pickers show-up. Most have guitars and there are always several banjos. Some of the banjo pickers are legitimate bluegrass players and they employ the proper etiquette...lol...They know all about how loud a banjo can be. It's real entertaining as we play all kinds of music from Dylan, gospel, Cash, all kinds of folk songs and classic country. I never knew that Dylan's "Don't Think Twice" and Cash's "I Still Miss Someone" were bluegrass favorites......... But, in all sincerity, of the many fine, fine musicians and instruments there, I find perhaps the sweetest is a fiddle played by someone who knows how to play it. I wish to God I could play a fiddle like a couple of these old dudes can. One of them shared the Grand Old Opry stage with Marty Stuart a few years ago.... A fiddle can cut through any kind of instrument, but to hear it playing fills and sweet background melodies to those Dylan and Cash tunes brings a smile to lots of faces and maybe even a tear to a few eyes. Such a sweet tone when played easily and slowly. Maybe someday I'll take another shot at it.

 

Speaking of Irish Music---We've got several really good Irish Bands around Kansas City. I've seen The Elders numerous times over the years and am always impressed by the Celtic sounds and the musicianship. Personally, I favor Irish Music and the softer bluegrass tones or the hardcore and blazing-fast bluegrass. I certainly admire the ability of the real bluegrass pickers, but for me it's often too loud and if the pickers aren't pros, seems like all they're doing is trying to be louder than the other guy.

[SmokeyGhost]

What was the question again?

[tpbiii]

This thread is absolutely great!

 

Y'all keep it up.

 

My knowledge of bluegrass is less than zero. But I've heard there is a characteristic ka-chunck (or something like that) to the rhythm guitar. Can anyone post a sample of a representative rhythm guitar sound?

 

Here are some classic old guitars where Tony Watt is testing them for bluegrass rhythm.

 

Tony is a bluegrass player for sure. Here are some more demos for lead on a fiddle tune.

 

Tony -- who loves Martin D-18s -- really liked the old AJ and SJ RW for bluegrass. This RW Js are pretty rare, and he was not familiar with them. He was also blown away by the little 00-40H that once belonged to Norman Blake, but being a small body guitar, it did not have the low end. Conventional wisdom is that RW (AJ, SJ, D-28) are better than mahogany (J-35, Jumbo, D-18, Belltone) for bluegrass rhythm, but remember this is for band music, not played solo.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[OldCowboy]

I've never been to a bluegrass jam , I'm in Ireland , but I have a theory .

 

I've been to plenty of Irish sessions , some good some bad ... Free drink for musicians means that every Tom **** and Harry lifts their mothers tourist present bodhran off the kitchen wall and joins in , thinking it's all great craic and easy peasey , or hey I know three chords , how hard can it be . Hiding behind the music that folk have learnt and struggled with ....

 

I can't for the life of me think why a good bluegrass player in a good bluegrass session would need a loud guitar .... Sure it needs to be a certain volume but a guitarist needs to find his place in the mix ...

 

The reason I'm throwing my tuppence worth is because at a session , you get the guys who know what they're doing , and the guys who are there to learn and join in , and the guys who aren't the best so they think that loud is the way to be King **** .

 

And the type of guy who wants to be King **** without the chops to get there is also the kind of guy who thinks loudest is bestest .

The worlds a varied place but in some ways the same ..: Irish sessions , bluegrass session , whatever .

 

'I just bought a 'insert guitar name here' and wow this things a cannon !!!

 

I've never known why that would be a boast .

 

 

So , my message is - if you need a guitar that's really loud , you're either the poor guy with talent who is trying to get himself heard over the cacophony of hangers on and joiners in , or you're the idiot who knows that you don't have the chops and needs an ego boost . Get the loudest , biggest , fanciest looking guitar you can . And the guy who doesn't have the kajones to cut the mustard is the very same personality who blabs on the Internet .::::

 

 

 

 

Before I get things thrown at me , there are gentelmen everywhere . Both in Irish sessions and I'm sure in every other type ...

And sure , Irish and bluegrass sessions are rarely amped and usually involve a few revellers with a beer or two . So of course a reasonably loud guitarist needed .

 

This is not a slight on anyone who is involved with perfectly good session music , but , don't believe all you research , and know , or think about who's writing the advice .

Sounds to me as though you may have met some of the same types at Celtic sessions that tend to show up at bluegrass jams - not a majority by any means, but conspicuous by their rudeness. As pointed out earlier, the guys/ladies with the cannon guitars should be the ones who are sufficiently experienced to know what they've doing and to use them accordingly. I don't claim to be a bluegrass guitar player in the least. The result is that when participating with the bluegrass crowd, I show up with one of my mahogany Gibsons - most often the trusty J-45 - and try to assimilate their guitar licks while staying clear of the complete novice who has the financial means to afford the Martin D-45 that he can't play but can be heard over everything in the room. Meanwhile I'm giving thanks that nobody can hear me unless they want to really try. Sound about right?

[E-minor7]

 

 

 

I'll second the Advanced Jumbo. But let's not forget the J-60, , , which btw is a near relative to the Sparrow (both quite rare birds).

 

Talking birds, I think the Firebird Custom would do a decent job, , , still not much would beat my re-topped, sound-hole-moved, re-necked now long-scale 1966 Country Western. That frankenstein is loud yet soulful Mother. .

 

 

Below the J-60

 

1997 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OsTVwE1xUc, , , sounds pretty good there. .

 

 

Playing starts at 2:00

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

1991 ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-X8by4Gbjg