Rabs Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Ive been reading up a bit about these new laws that came in to effect on 2nd Jan this year... Which in basic terms has put ALL Rosewood species on the endangered list and thus now you will need paperwork for any guitar with Rosewood when buying or selling outside of your own country... And ive read a few different things about what this is going to mean for guitar makers.... So far it seems as if basically we don't really know yet and indeed theres a big meeting happening in a few weeks to discuss this and after that there will be another one at the NAMM show where hopefully we will find out... Meanwhile I got this mail this morning from the MIA (Musical Industries Association) The MIA will attend a key meeting with CITES/Defra on 12th January followed by an international meeting facilitated by NAMM at the NAMM Show on January 18th. The information below has been sent to the authorities in response to the many communications we have had with members across the industry (many thanks to so many of you for helping and getting involved). The comments below were followed by a large number of more specific questions and queries that urgently need answering. We will let you know as soon as any clarity emerges! The overriding concerns from our industry involve: 1.The high level of administration in meeting the new requirements for newly-protected materials 2.The high levels of license cost in meeting the new requirements (especially in relation to the low selling costs of many instruments) 3.The desire for possible exclusions for small industries (ie ours) dealing with high volumes, but small physical amounts of protected materials 4.The real concerns about selling second-hand products with no hope of supporting historical paperwork 5.The apparent lack of harmonisation between different territories and the uncertainty this creates in how to proceed 6.The high levels of administration (for Defra etc) in actually dealing with the levels of applications 7.Lack of clarity on the Musical Instrument Certificate (and how to get it and be sure it will be “honoured” around the World) And then on another forum a member just posted this:- I've spent a not so merry few hours wading through the govt website which raised a few questions which I put to a very helpful person at the APHA. Most of the information is available here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports From a builders perspective, as far as I can tell the situation is as follows. Unlike other EU countries there are no plans to require registration of current stocks of Rosewood. To export a guitar you need to complete form FED0172 and enclose documentation that either proves that you purchased the wood pre 1/1/17 or that it was legally imported after that date. It seems that they understand that providing a country of origin for existing stocks might be difficult although it will be easier if such information were available. The country it was purchased from is likely to be sufficient for now. It is regarded as a re-export therefore the fee is £59 per application. If shipping multiple guitars to the same address then the fee is £59 plus £1.50 per additional guitar. I have a guitar which will be ready to ship to the US in a few weeks so I plan to get an application in asap. Of course the good thing is that they aren't yet in a position to issue certificates so all I can do is wait. They hope that it will be possible by early Feb. So we don't really know yet... But theres a chance it could effect anyone buying/selling a guitar internationally.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 well.. It's been coming for a while now... I wonder, does this apply at all to guitars that we've owned for decades? or is it only for new builds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 well.. It's been coming for a while now... I wonder, does this apply at all to guitars that we've owned for decades? or is it only for new builds? As far as I can tell, it just applies to new guitars exported for commercial purposes. It doesn't seem to be intended to cover personal guitars sold to people in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 In the US, it applies to Rosewood imported for re-sale or export, and to guitars sold to buyers outside the country. It also requires some interaction with the destination country, as the rules might be implemented differently across different borders. Personal guitars for personal use require nothing, since the airport guys can't even do that job, so determining genus and species of exotic woods is probably above their paygrades. An instrument with less than 10kg(22lbs) of Rosewood on it is exempt. All of my rosewood guitars in a pile aren't even prolly 2lbs of rosewood. It really is a set of commercial regulations designed to make it harder for companies to schlep slightly less than ethically acquired woods around the world in efforts to dodge whatever might be considered reasonable controls. Like they've probably been doing for 30 some years now. Blame the import/export businesses, they've gotten away with not doing what say Taylor or Martin has been doing for decades, trying to manage the various species the best they can. Gibson and Fender too, they both buy from certified sources. Here's a good summary: https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/questions-and-answers-appendix-II-timber-listings-December-2016.pdf Getting information from Reverb or some dope on eBay is not a good way to structure your guitar use. And for gawdsake, "confiscation and destruction" is not going to happen to anyone waltzing through Philly airport with a 100% Rosewoodcaster, contrary to the AGF braintrust. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 As far as I can tell, it just applies to new guitars exported for commercial purposes. It doesn't seem to be intended to cover personal guitars sold to people in other countries. We will have to wait to see how strict the authorities intend to be. Some of my clients who deal in antiques can no longer offer much of their artefacts to their clients in the States because quite a lot of it - items made from/incorporating ivory, ebony and the like - would be impounded and destroyed by The Management. Even objects which are clearly centuries - and even millennia - old are being destroyed. CITES should be a safeguard but there have been cases where overzealous agents have taken it upon themselves to be the arbiters of whether things are allowed in to the country or not even when all paperwork is in order. If rosewood comes to be regarded in the same light as ebony then things are looking very bleak. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 And then came, micarta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunatic Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 The quantum of rosewood used in instruments is relatively small compared to that used for furniture. You can prohibit export subject to the right paperwork, but in some countries, a blind eye is turned to wanton felling of 'lumber' be it whatever species. This 'lumber' is then used to make furniture for local consumption. Sure we have to safeguard species and all, but how do you regulate in-country use. I grew up in a country where you could buy chairs and tables made out of solid ebony. I'm sure you can still get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Posted on the Andertons Blog https://blog.andertons.co.uk/guitars/cites?utm_campaign=170105-SPE-CITESGuitarists&utm_source=emarsysemail&utm_medium=email&sc_src=email_1083877&sc_lid=81143830&sc_uid=wjioI6DppC&sc_llid=13207&sc_eh=b7df1d23ba4e60391 As of the 2nd of January 2017, a new law has been put into place that will affect how Rosewood is traded across borders. Obviously, a lot of guitars are made with Rosewood for the fretboard and that will have a heavy impact on how easy it is to order a guitar with Rosewood. It does NOT apply to guitars (or other instruments) that are being traded within the borders of one country, but any time an instrument with Rosewood is sold internationally (or in our case outside of the EU) it requires CITES certification. Sadly it stretches beyond Rosewood and into members of the same genus of tree as well as three types of Bubinga. While not many guitars use these rarer rosewoods it’s worth knowing when looking for a new guitar. This list includes: All Rosewood African Blackwood Cocobolo Kingwood Bubinga Any other member of the Dalbergia family of woods How does it affect me? What Andertons Can No Longer Do: We cannot ship any instruments containing Rosewood outside of the EU for the time being. That means you will not be able to order anything containing Rosewood if you live in Australia, or the US etc. What You Can’t Do: Order a guitar from outside the EU without CITES certification which must state the source of the Rosewood. This certification is the responsibility of the exporter (retailer). Sell a guitar internationally without CITES certification. The seller is always responsible for this even if it was CITES certified from the retailer you purchased it from. What does this not change? Apart from buying and selling guitars there are not any changes unless you plan on travelling with a lot of Rosewood! You can still travel freely with your instrument as long as you are with it and it has less than 10kg or 22lbs of regulated materials. This does not require CITES certification. You can still buy and sell rosewood within your country without any certification What’s Next? Industry leaders in the US, UK and around the world are starting a discussion to lighten the rules on the smaller quantities you will find in fretboards. While there is no guarantee that this will happen this is a conversation that is happening. We’ll start to see manufacturers using less and less Rosewood until this can be resolved. Brands like Chapman and Dowina have already started changing their models to use Ebony boards instead of Rosewood. Because of the cost of Ebony however we are sure to see more companies using man made materials like Gibson’s Richlite or other alternatives like Baked Maple. NAMM is right around the corner and this is where we will probably see the first shift away from Rosewood in smaller to mid sized brands. Want To Know More? If you want more information on the new convention please go to the official CITES website by clicking HERE! or contact us to see how this will affect your future orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 What You Can’t Do: Order a guitar from outside the EU without CITES certification which must state the source of the Rosewood. This certification is the responsibility of the exporter (retailer)... This right here is the crux of the biscuit, the reason for hysteria, the reason they are telling you how horrible it all is. God forbid the corporate citizen have to do anything remotely close to what the rest of us have to do in our daily lives. eBay and Reverb will figure out a sca...way around it, start using "pre-CITES" the way pre-CBS and pre-Norlin and Lawsuit-era have all been abused into bruised lumps. New bubble starts, and in ten years the dealers are all sniffling and crying because they are stuck with metric craploads of way overleveraged inventory. Kinda like today! The above blathering is in reference to the U!S!A! and our ways of doing business. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 Well from what I can see and as per usual.. It seems as if a huge change in the law has been made and they haven't really thought how it will actually work in practical terms. But its still early days... Maybe they can get them to take guitars off the list.. After all its such a small amount we are talking about on a guitar is it really worth any time or effort??? I can totally understand this in terms of large furniture pieces or art works made of illegal wood coming out of Asia (or wherever)... but a 6mm bit of wood on a guitar neck??.... And most of the big guitar companies (as has been stated) already make sure they are doing what they can so surely that should count for something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Well from what I can see and as per usual.. It seems as if a huge change in the law has been made and they haven't really thought how it will actually work in practical terms. But its still early days... Maybe they can get them to take guitars off the list.. After all its such a small amount we are talking about on a guitar is it really worth any time or effort??? I can totally understand this in terms of large furniture pieces or art works made of illegal wood coming out of Asia (or wherever)... but a 6mm bit of wood on a guitar neck??.... And most of the big guitar companies (as has been stated) already make sure they are doing what they can so surely that should count for something? A ton of rosewood is a ton of rosewood. 5000 guitars or 2000 coffee tables, what's the difference? rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 A ton of rosewood is a ton of rosewood. 5000 guitars or 2000 coffee tables, what's the difference? rct Im only talking in terms of us and our guitars... if you have a guitar and its older than 2017 then it should be accepted without paperwork and any guitar that's made after should come with the now relevant paperwork. The difference is as I said, Gibson and others already do what they can to buy their stock from legal markets.. theres a lot of stuff that comes from Asia that is made from illegally harvested wood.. Which I think is what this is all really about... trying to stop that illegal trade.... BUT will now effect anyone trying to buy or sell a guitar internationally... also I think if you are touring that its not classed as personal use, which means bands who tour internationally may also need to have all their paperwork sorted out for this. And the issue is that there is no such paperwork for older wood stock. (that's why Andertons say that at the moment they cant ship anything with Rosewood outside the EU) If I now want to sell a guitar to someone outside of the EU it will need paperwork or it wont make it to the customer.... And I already have wood that I bought but haven't used yet, they had no paperwork and im now going to have to contact the people I bought them off and see what I can sort out..... AND THEN I got to apply for a certificate which will probably take months... Just a bit of a pain in the bum... Im sure it will all get sorted out... Eventually.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Im sure it will all get sorted out... Eventually.... It will. People that expect to pay for a guitar made of rosewood will continue to buy them at probably slightly higher cost as these regs don't effect legitimate, large scale, long term users of these woods. 200 dollar CrapCasters and Les Poops will get scarcer as the vultures that run the companies that buy this crap from others without a thought to where or how the resources come from will dry up and go away. That is something that the entire business has needed since...oh...early 90's I guess, when super easy credit and the evolution of the Mega Store began in earnest. Everyone and anyone could buy a guitar and did, not just guitar players. That is how we got here, unless someone can explain otherwise to me. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 It will. People that expect to pay for a guitar made of rosewood will continue to buy them at probably slightly higher cost as these regs don't effect legitimate, large scale, long term users of these woods. Yeah... That's the one thing you can pretty much guarantee with all of this.. The price of anything with Rosewood is going to go up... Well I mean its endangered now so must be worth more and sound better than any other wood because its been sprinkled with magic pixie dust.. Right?? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Do Chibsons have real rosewood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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