Ebony on new models

[NighthawkChris]

The decision is at the other end, cost and supply, not revenue. As long as people are willing to pay them more for what they used to put on them for one price, they'll continue to put the cheapest, easiest to acquire material on them. Their filing would indicate some pretty intense supplier bridge fires behind them, so in a sense they can't be choosy without seriously tacking on the mark up.

 

I don't understand why people don't understand that of the major guitar manufacturers, only one has had materials "problems" like this. That makes it fairly simple to figure out.

 

rct

 

Don't disagree entirely, but my quoted statement implies that if no one buys something they make, it will be bad for those expecting to get compensated by the product. So you're saying that sales data is of no concern to decision making - in this instance revert to using ebony fretboards? All the supply issues and costs set aside, I would be inclined to believe that if this valuable consumer response data is not taken into account, then how do you know where the revenue is coming in and for what? I mean, all businesses are concerned with profits in the end. It's the only premise corporations have to be frank. Consumers only care what is on the shelf and do they like it for the given price. They vote with currency and that is as far as I was taking it. No votes, it is of best interest to figure a different strategy or the efforts are futile. Not saying that this is the only driving force behind business decisions... If it was that simple, many people would be hosting their own corporations looking at one variable in a multi-variable situation. Yes, cost and supply is definitely relevant data, but that is on the pre-production side consumers do not see. Once the thing is finished product, it is up to the consumer to grant the reward - to justify the cost of production in terms of time and materials.

[badbluesplayer]

Two things about what happened with the ebony thing:

 

1. You know how they can tell what's behind a black hole by observing the motion of other visible objects around it and back-calculating what's behind it? Well, we may never know what Gibson agreed to with the government about using ebony, but you can kind of tell what went on if you look at the surrounding market forces and compare what Gibson did to what they would have done had they not had the ebony problems. That all still points to one thing... a consent agreement with the Feds not to use ebony for, say, five years, or until the ownership changed, along with the other considerations they paid, in return for laying off the people involved. Once ownership changed, the persons who benefited personally from any consent agreement would no longer be involved with Gibson so it wouldn't make sense for it to continue to apply.

 

2. I forgot the second thing.

[Rabs]

Two things about what happened with the ebony thing:

 

1. You know how they can tell what's behind a black hole by observing the motion of other visible objects around it and back-calculating what's behind it? Well, we may never know what Gibson agreed to with the government about using ebony, but you can kind of tell what went on if you look at the surrounding market forces and compare what Gibson did to what they would have done had they not had the ebony problems. That all still points to one thing... a consent agreement with the Feds not to use ebony for, say, five years, or until the ownership changed, along with the other considerations they paid, in return for laying off the people involved. Once ownership changed, the persons who benefited personally from any consent agreement would no longer be involved with Gibson so it wouldn't make sense for it to continue to apply.

 

2. I forgot the second thing.

Well remember.. Theres only one place to get Ebony now.. There may be some old stock about, but for the likes of a big company like Gibson and with the quantity they need they would probably have to deal with Bob Taylor.. Maybe Henry didn't get on with him?

[rct]

Don't disagree entirely, but my quoted statement implies that if no one buys something they make, it will be bad for those expecting to get compensated by the product. So you're saying that sales data is of no concern to decision making - in this instance revert to using ebony fretboards? All the supply issues and costs set aside, I would be inclined to believe that if this valuable consumer response data is not taken into account, then how do you know where the revenue is coming in and for what? I mean, all businesses are concerned with profits in the end. It's the only premise corporations have to be frank. Consumers only care what is on the shelf and do they like it for the given price. They vote with currency and that is as far as I was taking it. No votes, it is of best interest to figure a different strategy or the efforts are futile. Not saying that this is the only driving force behind business decisions... If it was that simple, many people would be hosting their own corporations looking at one variable in a multi-variable situation. Yes, cost and supply is definitely relevant data, but that is on the pre-production side consumers do not see. Once the thing is finished product, it is up to the consumer to grant the reward - to justify the cost of production in terms of time and materials.

 

Which they did, the consumer granted the reward. The consumer justified the cost of production in terms of time and materials. The average guitar player like me took home many Gibsons over the last 4 decades without ever considering the materials, because we knew what they were. Today? Not so much. Alternative fingerboard woods are a recent development, driven by raw materials costs. If the consumer asked for it then yes, it would all be sales side. The consumer did not. An acoustic guitar maker puts Richlite on low cost instruments in order to keep them low cost because the low cost consumer demands it. If you want that acoustic with bound ebony on the neck you pay for bound ebony on the neck by orders of magnitude, consumer sales prove that. No consumer asks to pay last years price for this years cheaper to make model, they just don't.

 

If you want a Custom with a mahogany body, mahogany top, giant fret markers, and an Ebony board, you will have to pay 30% - 40% the retail mark up as you did just a couple years ago for the same thing. The difference? Problems with supply chains that the consumer, and their dollars, had nothing to do with. If you want a "normalized" consumer approved inflation rate price for the same guitar as a couple of years ago, you will not get the same materials. THAT is materials and cost side.

 

I'm not arguing with you to win something, nor am I slagging Gibson. It's business and nothing else. If other businesses are putting the same stuff on their guitars for an average consumer approved inflation rate across several years models and one business isn't, there is a glaring neon arrow pointing at where the "problem" lies.

 

rct

[NighthawkChris]

Which they did, the consumer granted the reward. The consumer justified the cost of production in terms of time and materials. The average guitar player like me took home many Gibsons over the last 4 decades without ever considering the materials, because we knew what they were. Today? Not so much. Alternative fingerboard woods are a recent development, driven by raw materials costs. If the consumer asked for it then yes, it would all be sales side. The consumer did not. An acoustic guitar maker puts Richlite on low cost instruments in order to keep them low cost because the low cost consumer demands it. If you want that acoustic with bound ebony on the neck you pay for bound ebony on the neck by orders of magnitude, consumer sales prove that. No consumer asks to pay last years price for this years cheaper to make model, they just don't.

 

If you want a Custom with a mahogany body, mahogany top, giant fret markers, and an Ebony board, you will have to pay 30% - 40% the retail mark up as you did just a couple years ago for the same thing. The difference? Problems with supply chains that the consumer, and their dollars, had nothing to do with. If you want a "normalized" consumer approved inflation rate price for the same guitar as a couple of years ago, you will not get the same materials. THAT is materials and cost side.

 

I'm not arguing with you to win something, nor am I slagging Gibson. It's business and nothing else. If other businesses are putting the same stuff on their guitars for an average consumer approved inflation rate across several years models and one business isn't, there is a glaring neon arrow pointing at where the "problem" lies.

 

rct

No man it's cool, we're just talking here. Appreciate the feedback and joining in on the conversation. I don't want to come to a Gibson forum to start crap with people. I've been contributing here for over a year and the fact that I keep coming back is reason enough to not tarnish my reputation if I want to have positive discussions with other members. It is normal to respectfully disagree (gee what a concept, haha!) at times. It is not normal to behave like some particular recent member in the USA forum - we know who that fella is. Most of the time when I contribute here and get feedback, I have receive nice comments, suggestions, information... I like to spend time reading threads even if I don't contribute directly. Overall, I maintain respect online because I don't always know who I am talking to or who is reading what I post. And I'm not a d1ck in person. I have great friends and family and I consider this forum to be a place I enjoy spending my screen time at. No need to be an internet tough guy, haha!

 

Anyhow, ebony... we love it and it belongs on our Gibson guitars. Don't know how Gibson can make it happen, but it needs to happen more often than not.

[rct]

I had a couple Ebony boarded Customs in my life, but neither were great guitars all around. I do like Ebony on my Martin. I'd like an Ebony boarded Fender, but the way I move it'll be a while.

 

As for me, CHRISTINE, you know NOTHING about ME. IDC what you think...of ME! ever. I WILL post...a PICTURE of a PAT BENATAR concert and YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHO I AM!!!!!

 

rct

[rct]

I love Flock, that was a great time to hear music coming out of the MTV.

 

Retirement is not easily described. The most exciting, frightening, fun, scary, worrisome feeling ever, all at one time. Still the same amount of things to do in this life, but all day to do them.

 

The only production Fenders with ebony board are the American Elites, Strat and Tele. I've played both flavors and like them both, when you get to 2 Grand for a Fender yer gettin luxury, inasmuch as either of those guitars can be luxurious. I need a good White, and I'd like Ebony, so it'd be the Olympic Pearl Strat. If they made the Tele that color I'd be all over it.

 

It will require a White Pearl pickguard, so there is that added cost.

 

rct

[rct]

I was in a really fun band at NAS Bermuda in the mid 80's, we had a slammin keys guy. We did Space Age Love Song. Good times.

 

rct

[jdgm]

I love my ebony-boarded LP Custom.

 

But you knew that.

 

IMO a LP Custom must have one.

 

I have 3 other guitars with ebony boards including an acoustic.

 

If it's sustainable etc.....

[Murph]

That would look sweet!! Maybe binding on the neck?

 

And an ebony skunk stripe in the maple neck.

 

Yum !

[Cougar]

I don't think Bozeman uses any Richlite, and does (did) Bozman put ebony on any models unless you order a custom shop job?

I know the CJ165 used to come with a nice ebony board back in the early 2000s. Then it went rosewood.

 

[jdgm]

 

 

Like!! A beaut.

[Cougar]

Like!! A beaut.

That does not suck.

Yeah, I've been looking at ebony-fretboarded CJs for a while. I ripped this photo off reverb, but this thing must have sold because I don't see it anymore.... I didn't hit the powerball last night, so I wouldn't have been able to get one anyway. YET.