What lessons have we learned in the past three years?

[jaxson50]

6 minutes ago, badbluesplayer said:

You sure can tell who has the Mike MyPillow broflake bobblehead dolls around here.

Here, lemme run a scan on y'all's microchips...

One liners and veiled insults don't make you look smart. 

[Whitefang]

Just now, jaxson50 said:

Not to nitpick,  but in regards to the officer shooting of a young person holding a toy gun,, maybe  the entire story was not presented to you .

A 911 caller reported a person with a hand gun in a park/play ground. In an area that had a problem with gang shootings,  the officer's where advised to approach with caution.  When the first officers arrived they ordered the suspect to drop the gun, he refused, turned toward the officer's,  the rest is history.  The toy gun originally had an orange muzzle , by law it's required so officers know it's a toy, however the young person had painted it black so it would look authentic,  perhaps to impress gang members in the area, maybe to carry out more nefarious activities,  like armed robbery.  

Given the information the officer's had, what could you have done any different?

Real life isn't a video game.  Cops don't bluff,  if someone pulled a toy gun that had been modified to look like a real gun would you tell the difference in a split second?

I don't recall anyone claiming the kid AIMED it at the police.  And given his age, If I were an officer I'd aim at the GUN.  And there also was NO claim that was attempted.

There's also a case in southwest Detroit, not far from where I was living at the time, where the police confronted a man walking down Lawndale street, near Vernor ave. and shouted at him to put his hands on his head.  Being a visitor to the city from  the Dominican Republic and not understanding English, he assumed possibly they were demanding him to show his visa, which he kept in his wallet.  As he reached for his back pocket to get his wallet the police opened fire, riddling him with more than a dozen bullets.  And later of course,  claiming they thought their lives were "in danger".  

And while we're now in Detroit, I clearly recall this, which happened not too long before the aforementioned incident.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/malice-green

Whitefang

 

[badbluesplayer]

You guys with the "woke" talk.  You should have an acronym, like the smart kids have.  WOKE - What On Klan's Earth?

[badbluesplayer]

As far as wanking on "woke" stuff, I worked for mostly good-ol-boys.  Builders, developers.  And I worked for plenty of hoidy-toidy types too.  And all their money was just as good as everybody else's to me.

I asked my dad one time why he didn't talk politics in mixed company and he said "I can't afford to lose half my customers."

[jaxson50]

Cops are humans,  put in a dangerous situation.  I think we have room to agree on some fine point's.  It is not easy to recruit new officers,, in the 1970s there was a push to raise the mental acuity testing for officers,  new training reforms were instituted.  But in the past decade or so, with the anti police movement's the turn over rate is very high.

Departments across the nation have lowered standards, for example many departments are now allowing candidates with past felonies on their records to apply, the worse outcome is the hiring of adrenaline junkies and the use of steroids in some departments is high, especially in officers assigned to anti gang units and those assigned to detention centers.

These are issues that are of concern to many senior officers and sherrifs across the country. I believe this is what took place in the George Floyd case.  Officers who have been disciplined or fired in one jurisdiction get hired in another.  

Better pay, better vetting,  better training, the hiring of more minorities,  I think these would be good practices to support. 

On the other side, citizens need to understand that when a officer gives you a command, it isn't a good idea to become combative . When you or I interact with the police it's important to understand they are in charge. It has to be this way.   Maybe there is a suspect at large and you are wearing the same color clothing.  Who knows?

When I was 20 years old,  (52 years back) there was a knock on my apartment door, three FBI agents were there to arrest a suspected antiwar activists who had used pipoe bombs to destroy a recruitment office.  The agent in charge asked me to show my fore arms , when he saw my arms he said, "it's the wrong guys and they started to  walk away.  I asked what this was about. The agent handed me a wanted poster for the suspect, and told me a neighbor had seen the poster at the post office and called the FBI. I took one look at the guy on the poster and couldn't believe how alike we looked,  he had a tattoo on his left fore arm, I didn't.  

I told them that I couldn't blame the person who called me in, if I had seen the poster I would have called me in too!

We all laughed,  they gave me the wanted poster, told me to hang on to it, it might save me some jail time in the future. 

What would have happened if I copped an attitude and became combative?

[badbluesplayer]

4 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

"mixed company" generally refers to males and females. 

Not here, Shakespeare.

[badbluesplayer]

7 hours ago, jaxson50 said:

One liners and veiled insults don't make you look smart. 

They're not veiled insults.  I'm just making fun of you for insulting up.  And dude, I don't have to look smart.  I have a license to be smart, lol.  #102507.

[tx-ogre]

8 hours ago, Whitefang said:

I don't recall anyone claiming the kid AIMED it at the police.  And given his age, If I were an officer I'd aim at the GUN.  And there also was NO claim that was attempted.

Whitefang

 

Ah yes, the old “just shoot the gun out of his hand” idea.  That only works in John Wayne movies or episodes of Barnaby Jones.  I retired with 30+ years in law enforcement both military and civilian.  One of the first things firearms instructors will tell new personnel that thinking you can shoot the gun out of somebody’s hand, or shooting them in the leg, is pure BS.  During a shooting incident, with the stress on your mind and body, your finer motor skills deteriorate.  It’s one of the reasons expert marksmen can miss a suspect at close range while under that kind of pressure.  I was a 95% or better shooter throughout my career and seriously doubt I could have shot the gun out of somebody’s hand even if they were standing next to me.

Edited March 25, 2022 by tx-ogre

[fortyearspickn]

If the  War On Police continues at the current pace - in 10 years or so, we will not have 'police'.  The defunding, demoralizing and demonizing will cause all the good ones to leave over time. "Watch Out What You Wish For"   At that point, the 're-imagined' police will be brownshirts.  I think the National Socialist Party in Germany called them Gestapo. 

Sending people to prison for decades - when they have to make a split second, life or death decision  "Is that person 17 years old or 18?  Is that a toy gun? "   And then there's the shooting of the proverbial 'knife wielding' person.  If you are within 20 feet of a person holding a knife - he can be on you in seconds and stabbing you before you can draw, aim and fire. And, sadly, your chances of hitting the assailant are approximately 14%, because of adrenaline. 

So, as has been stated,  it is always best if you are ordered to do something by a police officer - to do it.  Or, as Dirty Harry put it, "Are you feeling lucky, punk?" 

[jvi]

10 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

If the  War On Police continues at the current pace - in 10 years or so, we will not have 'police'.  The defunding, demoralizing and demonizing will cause all the good ones to leave over time. "Watch Out What You Wish For"   At that point, the 're-imagined' police will be brownshirts.  I think the National Socialist Party in Germany called them Gestapo. 

Sending people to prison for decades - when they have to make a split second, life or death decision  "Is that person 17 years old or 18?  Is that a toy gun? "   And then there's the shooting of the proverbial 'knife wielding' person.  If you are within 20 feet of a person holding a knife - he can be on you in seconds and stabbing you before you can draw, aim and fire. And, sadly, your chances of hitting the assailant are approximately 14%, because of adrenaline. 

So, as has been stated,  it is always best if you are ordered to do something by a police officer - to do it.  Or, as Dirty Harry put it, "Are you feeling lucky, punk?" 

You sound like you think that bad cops dont exist, they do.

[Mr. Natural]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:22 AM, fortyearspickn said:

...   I'm guessing you saw 'Eddie Murray" and knew immediately who CAman meant - but went to Google to find some arcane person named 'Murray' you could throw back at him with some factoids going back nearly 45 years as if you could roll them off your tongue.  ....

To even an average baseball fan, Eddie Murray is not "some arcane person".

[Mr. Natural]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, badbluesplayer said:

All I know is I'm an independent so I voted against the Nazis and Russians in the last presidential election.  Never again will I have that chance.

You can do what I did in 2016 and 2020: WRITE-IN the name of someone you think is a SUITABLE candidate.  Not that it mattered in the election results, but it was more palatable (to me) than the choices we had in '16 and '20.

[fortyearspickn]

On 3/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, jvi said:

You sound like you think that bad cops dont exist, they do.

Sure. Statistically, when you have a large group of people, you'll have some bad ones.  Bad doctors, politicians, priests, parents, etc.  That's why cops have Internal Affairs departments as well as Civilian Review Boards.  Doctors have their own review boards. Bad parents have Child Protective Services. Bad politicians have ... what?  the election process?  

My point was that police are unique in that their lives are on the line when a person points a gun at them, they have to decide if they think it might be a minor with a toy gun.  When they decide they do not want to risk their lives, and then defend themselves (as every citizen would have the right to do in that situation) some people run to the media to find out what to think about it.   And the media reminds them "SEE - Bad Cops DO exist."     

If that man child with the toy gun pointed it at a politician and the politician shot him - the media would spin the story based on the political party of the person defending his life.   Maybe in some alternate universe, the solution would be parents telling their kids 'Do not point ANYTHING at a police officer." 

[fortyearspickn]

15 hours ago, Mr. Natural said:

To even an average baseball fan, Eddie Murray is not "some arcane person".

Wasn't there a baseball movie  "The Natural" ?   

[Mr. Natural]

2 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Wasn't there a baseball movie  "The Natural" ?   

There was, but I was not a "natural" despite my Mr. Natural handle.  In high school I could hit a good high school fastball and an average high school curveball.  When I got to college, all of a sudden I could only hit an average college fastball and only a hanging curve.

[fortyearspickn]

21 hours ago, Mr. Natural said:

There was, but I was not a "natural" despite my Mr. Natural handle.  In high school I could hit a good high school fastball and an average high school curveball.  When I got to college, all of a sudden I could only hit an average college fastball and only a hanging curve.

That was my experience, academically speaking, when I got to college.  🤕

[Mr. Natural]

For me, academically speaking, besides my apparently reaching my baseball peak in high school, college baseball was taking up too much of my time, and my grades started to suffer.

I made the first cut on the baseball team, but I was going to be riding the pine behind a better first baseman.  I decided to concentrate on my studies.

Even if I had stayed with baseball in college, I certainly wasn't going to go beyond that.  For one thing, I was too slow a runner.  My high school coach once told me, "Natural [not my real name], you run too long in the same place."

[jaxson50]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:34 AM, Whitefang said:

I don't recall anyone claiming the kid AIMED it at the police.  And given his age, If I were an officer I'd aim at the GUN.  And there also was NO claim that was attempted.

There's also a case in southwest Detroit, not far from where I was living at the time, where the police confronted a man walking down Lawndale street, near Vernor ave. and shouted at him to put his hands on his head.  Being a visitor to the city from  the Dominican Republic and not understanding English, he assumed possibly they were demanding him to show his visa, which he kept in his wallet.  As he reached for his back pocket to get his wallet the police opened fire, riddling him with more than a dozen bullets.  And later of course,  claiming they thought their lives were "in danger".  

And while we're now in Detroit, I clearly recall this, which happened not too long before the aforementioned incident.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/malice-green

Whitefang

 

No offense intended here but you really think the average officer can actually shoot a gun out of someone's hand? 

That is literally impossible to pull off intentionally. 

1. The officer is under duress. 

2.  These shooting happen in the blink of an eye.

3. The suspect isn't going to stand perfectly still so the officer can take aim.

4. What if the suspect is holding the gun in front of his body? You think the bullet will just stop when it hits that gun in his hand?  What if he is aiming at the officer ? 

When someone suggest things like this it exposes how little they know about 1, shooting, 2, shooting under duress. 3, ballistics. 

Try this exercise,  run 5 50 yard dashes back to back, do 75 pushups,  as soon as you finish them jump up and spin around till your dizzy,  then pick-up a pistol and try to hit a target.

These are not actors in a movie, they are average people,  most police officers have very little experience with weapons until they go through the academy, they are not the lone ranger 

[jaxson50]

On 3/25/2022 at 5:14 PM, badbluesplayer said:

They're not veiled insults.  I'm just making fun of you for insulting up.  And dude, I don't have to look smart.  I have a license to be smart, lol.  #102507.

When did I " insult up?" And what does that even mean?

[jaxson50]

On 3/25/2022 at 5:51 PM, tx-ogre said:

Ah yes, the old “just shoot the gun out of his hand” idea.  That only works in John Wayne movies or episodes of Barnaby Jones.  I retired with 30+ years in law enforcement both military and civilian.  One of the first things firearms instructors will tell new personnel that thinking you can shoot the gun out of somebody’s hand, or shooting them in the leg, is pure BS.  During a shooting incident, with the stress on your mind and body, your finer motor skills deteriorate.  It’s one of the reasons expert marksmen can miss a suspect at close range while under that kind of pressure.  I was a 95% or better shooter throughout my career and seriously doubt I could have shot the gun out of somebody’s hand even if they were standing next to me.

Amen! Everyone is an authority when it comes to deciding what cops should do.

Every citizen should be required to ride along with a police officer once a year, maybe take a ride with the EMTs  too.

[Whitefang]

5 hours ago, jaxson50 said:

No offense intended here but you really think the average officer can actually shoot a gun out of someone's hand? 

That is literally impossible to pull off intentionally. 

1. The officer is under duress. 

2.  These shooting happen in the blink of an eye.

3. The suspect isn't going to stand perfectly still so the officer can take aim.

4. What if the suspect is holding the gun in front of his body? You think the bullet will just stop when it hits that gun in his hand?  What if he is aiming at the officer ? 

When someone suggest things like this it exposes how little they know about 1, shooting, 2, shooting under duress. 3, ballistics. 

Try this exercise,  run 5 50 yard dashes back to back, do 75 pushups,  as soon as you finish them jump up and spin around till your dizzy,  then pick-up a pistol and try to hit a target.

These are not actors in a movie, they are average people,  most police officers have very little experience with weapons until they go through the academy, they are not the lone ranger 

Sure.  So what would have been wrong with just pointing his REAL gun at the kid and demanding he toss the gun down or waiting until the kid pointed his toy gun at him(foolishly)  THEN maybe shooting toward him but not directly AT him?  Could have been the kid,  having real bullets flying his way, could have been scared sh!tless enough to toss the toy and hit the deck.    And lets address your hypothesis numerically.

1. The officer in question wasn't reported to be under duress.

2. The officer was the only one who did any shooting.  He wasn't really in a "shoot-out" situation.

3. The officer apparently didn't wait for any response, submissive or combative before he opened fire.

4.  The "suspect"( an adolescent boy, remember?) wasn't really pointing the toy gun at anything specific.  Increasing the reason for the officer to not feel "threatened".  

You might recall the footage of a police officer, a few years ago, shown chasing after an African-American man who, when pulled over, jumped out of his car and went running away from the officer, who was then seen chasing the reported unarmed man firing his service pistol at him until finally hitting him and killing him.  And why?  No reason really, since the guy ran off leaving his car behind which would have all sorts of info on him in it.  And even if it was a stolen vehicle, it was left behind to be recovered.  And since no one was hurt or really in any danger(except of course, the car's driver) there was no need to open fire. 

And a badge isn't really a license to kill.  Just to uphold and enforce the law.    And FWIW---- An old buddy of mine spent 10 yrs in Michigan's Jackson prison for holding up a liquor store.  Caught by a cop while in the act he quickly surrendered after the cop shot him in the hand that my buddy was holding his gun in.  

Whitefang

[jaxson50]

4 hours ago, Whitefang said:

Sure.  So what would have been wrong with just pointing his REAL gun at the kid and demanding he toss the gun down or waiting until the kid pointed his toy gun at him(foolishly)  THEN maybe shooting toward him but not directly AT him?  Could have been the kid,  having real bullets flying his way, could have been scared sh!tless enough to toss the toy and hit the deck.    And lets address your hypothesis numerically.

1. The officer in question wasn't reported to be under duress.

2. The officer was the only one who did any shooting.  He wasn't really in a "shoot-out" situation.

3. The officer apparently didn't wait for any response, submissive or combative before he opened fire.

4.  The "suspect"( an adolescent boy, remember?) wasn't really pointing the toy gun at anything specific.  Increasing the reason for the officer to not feel "threatened".  

You might recall the footage of a police officer, a few years ago, shown chasing after an African-American man who, when pulled over, jumped out of his car and went running away from the officer, who was then seen chasing the reported unarmed man firing his service pistol at him until finally hitting him and killing him.  And why?  No reason really, since the guy ran off leaving his car behind which would have all sorts of info on him in it.  And even if it was a stolen vehicle, it was left behind to be recovered.  And since no one was hurt or really in any danger(except of course, the car's driver) there was no need to open fire. 

And a badge isn't really a license to kill.  Just to uphold and enforce the law.    And FWIW---- An old buddy of mine spent 10 yrs in Michigan's Jackson prison for holding up a liquor store.  Caught by a cop while in the act he quickly surrendered after the cop shot him in the hand that my buddy was holding his gun in.  

Whitefang

In the case you brought up about the officer shooting the suspect in the back, I totally agree,  there is only one situation where shooting a suspect in the back is justified,  if he is armed and running toward others.

Was to your reply to my previous post regarding shooting under duress, any time officers go into a situation where an armed suspect has been reported the officer is under duress. Only a fool or a psychopath  would not be under duress,  unless you have been there, you will understand.  A 911 caller reports a man in the park with a gun, that's all you know, is there more than one person and the caller only saw one? Is he going to shoot before you can get out of the cruiser?  The boy wore pants with a 33 inch waist,.was big for his age.

Bottom line, when a suspect is armed  with any weapon, they are a threat to the public and the officer.  You have a split second to decide what to do,  

Like this guy 

 

[jaxson50]

How fast can you react to a threat?

 

I 

[fortyearspickn]

A case several months ago - cop told lots of people fighting in front of home - as he is getting out of his car to the free-for-all, he sees a large black female who has pinned a smaller female to a car, has a knife in raised hand and is clearly going to stab her.  WIth her back to the cop, indifferent or unaware of his presence, she is a second away from possibly killing her victim - the cop has no choice and shoots her in the back.  Immediately, the activists and media accuse him of all sorts of unspeakable crimes.   If he hadn't saved the victim - they would have done the same thing.  Truly, clearly on video, it was a no-win situation the cop was faced with because of a person who in the very act of committing murder. 

[Whitefang]

11 hours ago, jaxson50 said:

I

Bottom line, when a suspect is armed  with any weapon, they are a threat to the public and the officer.  You have a split second to decide what to do,  

 

You mean like the metro Detroit cop who shot the Australian woman in pajamas and armed with a CELL PHONE?  

And if young black men were wary and apprehensive about police before, I guess you pointed out that black kids that are "big for their age" need to beware too.

Whitefang