Need Your Collective Wisdom > NGD - Epiphone Frontier Masterbilt Issue

[thegreatgumbino]

Good morning, folks.  I picked up a new Epiphone Frontier Masterbilt from Fuller's Guitar on Monday.  I love the look and the sound.  

After getting it home and changing the strings, the following became evident.  The goofy way they laid out the tuning pegs results in the A string interfering with the E string & post.   I found a post where another guy had this same issue and returned it.  From all the pics I've found online, it appears they are all laid out this way, so I'm unsure that returning and trying another will make any difference.  

The weird thing is I didn't notice the issue until I had the A string break upon tuning it up.  I keep my guitars all tuned a whole step down to D standard, so the A string was being brought up to G in this configuration.  From what I can piece together, the cut "E" string end was actually pointing straight out rather than angled up as seen in the pics below.  I think it "grabbed the A" string and caused it to stretch and break between the E & A tuning posts.   I know this sounds weird, but I've never broken an "A" string before and can only speculate on how this occurred.

What would you guys do in this situation?  Is this worth worrying about?  If my theory on how the string broke is correct, it would require some awareness when retuning in the future.  Will the interference affect tuning stability?  Ultimately, I'm trying to decide if this is a big enough deal to return it or keep it and move on.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Larsongs]

Return the Guitar & exchange it for another.. That isn’t right.

Check the pics of this USA Epiphone Frontier to see what it should look like…

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EFrontUSAN--epiphone-usa-frontier-acoustic-guitar-antique-natural

Edited April 5, 2023 by Larsongs

[thegreatgumbino]

41 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

Return the Guitar & exchange it for another.. That isn’t right.

Check the pics of this USA Epiphone Frontier to see what it should look like…

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EFrontUSAN--epiphone-usa-frontier-acoustic-guitar-antique-natural

That is the $4,500 USA Bozeman handmade Frontier.  It has a different headstock (and much better looking IMO) entirely.   The Masterbilt version is the $899 Indonesian version with the slim headstock.  Check it out below.  It has the same issue with the E/A interference.  Mine is probably more evident since it has 13's on it instead of 12's.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EMTFITAGH--epiphone-masterbilt-frontier-iced-tea-aged-gloss

The spacing from the edge of the headstock to the E & E tuners match, so it's not like they installed the low E tuner in the wrong spot.  It's a shame because there's plenty of room to move them closer to the headstock and avoid the issue all together.

Edited April 5, 2023 by thegreatgumbino

[62burst]

Can you lay the broken string in place and see if it broke where the two strings interfere with each other? A rough trailing edge on the nut can also cause a broken string. 

If you don’t want to risk returning the guitar to only find it’s replacement has the same issue, maybe you can wind the low and high E strings in the opposite direction as is done with classical guitars.

ps-  A comparo between the Epi and the Hummingbird Vintage, both squares, would be interesting. If you still have the ‘Bird, that is.

 

[Larsongs]

55 minutes ago, thegreatgumbino said:

That is the $4,500 USA Bozeman handmade Frontier.  It has a different headstock (and much better looking IMO) entirely.   The Masterbilt version is the $899 Indonesian version with the slim headstock.  Check it out below.  It has the same issue with the E/A interference.  Mine is probably more evident since it has 13's on it instead of 12's.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EMTFITAGH--epiphone-masterbilt-frontier-iced-tea-aged-gloss

The spacing from the edge of the headstock to the E & E tuners match, so it's not like they installed the low E tuner in the wrong spot.  It's a shame because there's plenty of room to move them closer to the headstock and avoid the issue all together.

I know the difference between the 2 Guitars.. The point is the installation of the Tuners on Made in Indonesia is wrong. The Strings aren’t supposed to hit the the posts of other Tuners..

I’ve had negative experiences with Made in Indonesia Guitars.. The Build quality & attention to QC leaves a lot to be desired.. I’ve bought about 6 in the past 10 years just to have a knock around Guitars… I’ve returned all but one & it was the most time consuming Set up I’ve ever done.... 5 out of 6 needed more work than they were worth..

Korea builds much better Guitars in the Low to Medium price range.. As are the higher priced Made in Japan Guitars..

Point being, don’t waste your time! Return this Guitar & get something else.. I’ve checked out a few websites & It looks like all the Tuners on the Headstocks on those MIA Epi Frontiers are cut the same way.. Which is poor Craftsmanship & shouldn’t be…

[thegreatgumbino]

19 minutes ago, Larsongs said:

I know the difference between the 2 Guitars.. The point is the installation of the Tuners on Made in Indonesia is wrong. The Strings aren’t supposed to hit the the posts of other Tuners..

I’ve had negative experiences with Made in Indonesia Guitars.. The Build quality & attention to QC leaves a lot to be desired.. I’ve bought about 6 in the past 10 years just to have a knock around Guitars… I’ve returned all but one & it was the most time consuming Set up I’ve ever done.... 5 out of 6 needed more work than they were worth..

Korea builds much better Guitars in the Low to Medium price range.. As are the higher priced Made in Japan Guitars..

Point being, don’t waste your time! Return this Guitar & get something else.. I’ve checked out a few websites & It looks like all the Tuners on the Headstocks on those MIA Epi Frontiers are cut the same way.. Which is poor Craftsmanship & shouldn’t be…

My apologies if I offended you.  It wasn’t clear from your original post that you realized they’re different guitars.

[thegreatgumbino]

1 hour ago, 62burst said:

Can you lay the broken string in place and see if it broke where the two strings interfere with each other? A rough trailing edge on the nut can also cause a broken string. 

If you don’t want to risk returning the guitar to only find it’s replacement has the same issue, maybe you can wind the low and high E strings in the opposite direction as is done with classical guitars.

ps-  A comparo between the Epi and the Hummingbird Vintage, both squares, would be interesting. If you still have the ‘Bird, that is.

 

Good idea.  I hadn’t thought about that.  I’ll have to pull it out of the trash when I get home.  
 

Still have the ‘Bird and love it!  I’ll do short comparison later.

[Dave F]

If you’re set on keeping it, perhaps turn the E string in the opposite direction and keep the bend pointed down. Wouldn’t cost you anything to try it. I have ukuleles that are designed to turn the end strings opposite the inner strings.  Or get locking tuners and eliminate the string bend. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Dave F

[Larsongs]

27 minutes ago, thegreatgumbino said:

My apologies if I offended you.  It wasn’t clear from your original post that you realized they’re different guitars.

No offense taken… I’m just trying to help you out.. I’ve been there done that with Indonesian & other Guitars.. You spent your money for a new Guitar in perfect condition.. What you got isn’t anywhere near that.. If you want to keep it that’s up to you.. IMO, it’s a waste of time.. Exchange it for one with correctly drilled Tuner holes or get something else..

The only way to fix that Guitar is most likely with a new Neck & Headstock with the Tuner holes drilled correctly. Which this Guitar isn’t anywhere close..

I’m sure it wasn’t intentional but Epiphone should recall that entire Run of Guitars with the holes drilled like that.. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Larsongs

[kidblast]

I've been messing around with guitars for a long long time,  (50+ years now)

I've never seen anything like this before.  I wouldn't keep it.

 

[jdgm]

https://www.string-butler.com/

[thegreatgumbino]

31 minutes ago, jdgm said:

https://www.string-butler.com/

Well that's interesting.  I've seen something like that before and looked for it yesterday to no avail.  I like this one since it replaces the truss rod cover.

Edited April 5, 2023 by thegreatgumbino

[rct]

You can't throw a rock without hitting a dozen 900 dollar guitars that don't do that.  I wouldn't keep that, it is just not designed/put together right.

rct

[thegreatgumbino]

5 hours ago, 62burst said:

Can you lay the broken string in place and see if it broke where the two strings interfere with each other? A rough trailing edge on the nut can also cause a broken string. 

If you don’t want to risk returning the guitar to only find it’s replacement has the same issue, maybe you can wind the low and high E strings in the opposite direction as is done with classical guitars.

ps-  A comparo between the Epi and the Hummingbird Vintage, both squares, would be interesting. If you still have the ‘Bird, that is.

 

The string broke at the tuning peg.  However, what made me think about the E string grabbing it is the way the end of the E string unwound.  The clippers I use to trim string ends definitely don't leave a snaggle tooth like that.

 

 

Here's a quick and dirty comparison of the Frontier, Hummingbird Vintage and J200.  All standard D tuning.  Frontier and J200 have Martin Retro mediums and Hummingbird has DR Rare mediums.  Recorded on iPhone 11 Pro.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by thegreatgumbino

[jdgm]

2 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

Well that's interesting.  I've seen something like that before and looked for it yesterday to no avail.  I like this one since it replaces the truss rod cover.

Ah - I hadn't seen this version.   Thanks! 

Shop is on Reverb (I am in UK).

I think I will buy one of these for my ES-175.

It should certainly fix your problem!

Edited April 5, 2023 by jdgm

[62burst]

3 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

Here's a quick and dirty comparison of the Frontier, Hummingbird Vintage and J200.  All standard D tuning.  Frontier and J200 have Martin Retro mediums and Hummingbird has DR Rare mediums.  Recorded on iPhone 11 Pro.

Love this sort of casual comparo video- the HB-V and the '200 are sounding great and judging by the fretboards, they look like they've been getting some of your attention. Thanks for putting that together.

JDGM's idea of using the String Butler's much better than a Fender-style string tree. But there would definitely be second thoughts if it were a more costly guitar.

[egoidealmusic]

Definitely take it back.  I've many Epiphone's with that same headstock and the pegs don't get remotely that close.  Beautiful guitar (I love that big giant pickguard!) but that's going to be an issue forever.

[E-minor7]

I can't believe my eyes - what a down-tríp for you, , , and for the exciting guitar.

 

This may be your next stop - https://www.epiphone.com/en-US/Acoustic-Guitar/ACCZZN752/Frontier-Burst

 

 

Or one of these - 

[E-minor7]

Splendid film btw ^ think it shows the strengths and vulnerability/'weakness' of the Bird.

[Jinder]

This post has intrigued me…having done some sleuthing online it appears it’s very much a case of “they all do that, Sir” when it comes to the Indonesian Frontiers.

That said, I don’t believe it would cause a tuning stability issue in practice-if you tune all strings from low E to high E, it should effectively be quite stable. If you’re dropping the low E to drop E, it could be worth checking the A after downtuning, but I always retune the whole instrument after dropping into altered tunings as everything changes in terms of neck tension.

If you dig the Frontier, I’d just keep it and live with it. The String Butler is a good idea. The other option is to have a luthier fill the low and high E tuner holes and move those two machineheads out a little way. Some colour matched staining and a fresh coat of lacquer on the headstock faceplate and the job would be pretty much invisible. Would be 2hrs work max for a good luthier. 
 

Of course the above would invalidate any warranty but we’re not talking about a massively big ticket guitar. If you love it, modding it a little is no biggie. I’ve done allsorts to my guitars to get them exactly where i want them, and it’s so worth doing rather than falling out of love with an otherwise great instrument.

[fortyearspickn]

17 hours ago, kidblast said:

I've been messing around with guitars for a long long time,  (50+ years now)

I've never seen anything like this before.  I wouldn't keep it.

 

Agree -  it is absolutely unacceptable.  Even a beginning player would be put off by this - and if it were their first and only guitar, they'd switch to the banjo ! 

[thegreatgumbino]

Thanks for being a sounding board, folks.  I returned it this afternoon.   I don't think a guitar costing that much should require major intervention on something so simple, and it would have bothered me in the long run.  Funnily enough, the manager wanted to argue there wasn't anything wrong with it and that he owns numerous guitars with the same issue.  I had to bite my tongue and not tell him he has some janky gear.  

[Dave F]

Now you have me looking for that issue. It popped up today on eBay. Looks like it's been around for a while.

1970s Ibanez guitar 2355 Lawsuit ES ??? (Please read description) | eBay

1970s Ibanez 2385 Lawsuit ES

 

[Larsongs]

3 hours ago, Dave F said:

Now you have me looking for that issue. It popped up today on eBay. Looks like it's been around for a while.

1970s Ibanez guitar 2355 Lawsuit ES ??? (Please read description) | eBay

1970s Ibanez 2385 Lawsuit ES

 

Strong pass.. That is poor design & execution.. Small wonder it’s on EBay.. Maybe he’ll snag a sucker.. 

[Larsongs]

7 hours ago, thegreatgumbino said:

Thanks for being a sounding board, folks.  I returned it this afternoon.   I don't think a guitar costing that much should require major intervention on something so simple, and it would have bothered me in the long run.  Funnily enough, the manager wanted to argue there wasn't anything wrong with it and that he owns numerous guitars with the same issue.  I had to bite my tongue and not tell him he has some janky gear.  

It appears the similar priced Epiphone SJ200’s, Hummingbird’s & the slightly more expensive Epiphone Excellante do not have that Headstock issue.. They might be of interest to check out..