Some nebulous science

[sparquelito]

On another forum, some fellow posited that the Eric Clapton signature Stratocaster was many times more powerful a guitar than any humbucking Gibson Les Paul, and wondered why this was possible.
I scratched my head over that, and waited a while to respond. 

My response follows here. 

I must confess, I have never heard of such a thing.

Let’s unpack this.

“Power” is a relative term.
It may mean pure volume.
It might mean sustain.
It may be spiritual, and refer to the powerful feelings of wonder and joy that one guitar player may feel when playing this model of guitar over there, compared to playing that model of guitar right here.
It may be a preference in tone and tonal qualities.

Worth discussing is the fact that there have been many models of Eric Clapton Signature Stratocasters over the years, and there are dozens and dozens of models of Gibson Les Pauls equipped with a variety of models of humbuckers.

That said, let’s assume we are talking about bark, the immediate volume of sound when a particular chord is struck.

I did an experiment just last week.
I set a 1x12 tube combo amplifier to 12 o’clock on the tonal Low, Mid, High EQ knobs, and two o’clock on Volume and Gain. Then I left the settings alone.
(The amp is a hand-wired replica of an older Marshall 15 watt tube amp.)

I tuned up a number of my electric guitars, and I rolled all the Volume and Tone knobs to 10.
I set the pickup selector switches to the Bridge pickup, except where noted.

I then plugged them in, one at a time, and I struck an A major power chord, and (using a quality decibel meter), I measured the immediate volume of each striking in dB’s.
The decibel meter was firmly mounted on a mic stand, and the position never changed.
It is a Dr Meter MS10 model, and measures noise from 30 dB to 130 dB, with a +/- 1.5dB accuracy. 

Each guitar got 3 or 4 passes, just to check for consistency of dB readings. 
I was extremely careful to phrase the A chord the same on every guitar, and to hit the strings relative to the distance from the bridge, precisely the same each time. 

The Les Pauls had various pickups in them, mostly factory stock, and the 1991 Fender Strat Plus was equipped with Fender Lace Sensor gold pickups, a favorite of Eric Clapton himself.
I included some control guitars, (red herring guitars??) a Fender Telecaster a Stagg Les Paul copy, and a Gibson Firebird Zero. 

Here were the readings after the experiment was over:
Gibson Les Paul Modern Lite - 498T humbucker - 110 dB
Gibson BFG - Gibson 500T "Super Ceramic" humbucker - 110 dB
Stagg Les Paul Copy - Stagg Humbucker - 106 dB
Gibson Firebird Zero - Double Slug humbucker - 110 dB
Fender Performer Telecaster Hum - Double Tap™ humbucker - Yosemite single coil - 94 dB neck humbucker, 100 dB bridge single coil
Stratocaster - Lace Sensor gold single coils - 95 dB bridge single coil, 95 dB middle single coil

As you can see, the Stratocaster was not as loud as the Humbucking Les Pauls, or indeed most of the other guitars period.

Tonally, sonically, they all sounded wonderful.
Which one was best?
That depends upon your ear and your preferences.

Some people consider Carried Underwood a much more powerful singer than Aretha Franklin. 

I'll just leave that right there. 

😐

[ksdaddy]

It's all about what sounds good to you. I hopped from one guitar to the next a few days ago, not really 'feeling it'. Then I plugged my old stock CBS Telecaster in, back pickup, tone pot rolled all the way down and hit a chord.

I said out loud, "and the walls of Jericho came down".

I don't know why I said that. It was what came out.

[sparquelito]

19 minutes ago, ksdaddy said:

It's all about what sounds good to you. I hopped from one guitar to the next a few days ago, not really 'feeling it'. Then I plugged my old stock CBS Telecaster in, back pickup, tone pot rolled all the way down and hit a chord.

I said out loud, "and the walls of Jericho came down".

I don't know why I said that. It was what came out.

Now THAT is powerful!

😀

[ksdaddy]

I'm not all about the power but sometimes it helps. I have a Fender Custom Shop 1960 Strat, presumably with vintage era correct pickups, at least new pickups designed to be like old pickups, if that makes sense. To me, they're weak and nasty. Then I plug in my stock '87 Strat and it's sparkle time.  The '87s are just wound hotter, period.  In this particular case that translates to louder, more bold, more clear, all without distortion.  So I have made an offer on a 1988 American Standard loaded guard to drop into the '60. I will keep the originals of course.

I'm in the process of altering a 1958 Gretsch Anniversary. They came with one volume pot and a mud switch, where you have a choice between straight ahead, a sorta muddy cap, or a hugely muddy cap.  Not digging it. I did put in a 0.001 cap across the volume pot so I wouldn't lose highs when I rolled it down, but I still would like to tweak on the fly and not be held to what those three positions offer. I am vehemently against drilling holes or routing, so I will pull the old harness and replace it with one volume, one tone, no new holes. As to power, it has a PAF Filtertron that is about 1/2" away from the strings. I don't even know if the whole pickup is designed to adjust up and down or if it's just screwed down. The polepieces are adjustable of course. I will look into if it's height adjustable. It would be interesting because it's super hot even far away from the strings.

[jdgm]

The Eric Clapton signature Strat has (and always has had) an active circuit; 25db mid-boost and TBX.

That's why.

[Sgt. Pepper]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:35 AM, sparquelito said:

On another forum, some fellow posited that the Eric Clapton signature Stratocaster was many times more powerful a guitar than any humbucking Gibson Les Paul, and wondered why this was possible.
I scratched my head over that, and waited a while to respond. 

My response follows here. 

I must confess, I have never heard of such a thing.

Let’s unpack this.

“Power” is a relative term.
It may mean pure volume.
It might mean sustain.
It may be spiritual, and refer to the powerful feelings of wonder and joy that one guitar player may feel when playing this model of guitar over there, compared to playing that model of guitar right here.
It may be a preference in tone and tonal qualities.

Worth discussing is the fact that there have been many models of Eric Clapton Signature Stratocasters over the years, and there are dozens and dozens of models of Gibson Les Pauls equipped with a variety of models of humbuckers.

That said, let’s assume we are talking about bark, the immediate volume of sound when a particular chord is struck.

I did an experiment just last week.
I set a 1x12 tube combo amplifier to 12 o’clock on the tonal Low, Mid, High EQ knobs, and two o’clock on Volume and Gain. Then I left the settings alone.
(The amp is a hand-wired replica of an older Marshall 15 watt tube amp.)

I tuned up a number of my electric guitars, and I rolled all the Volume and Tone knobs to 10.
I set the pickup selector switches to the Bridge pickup, except where noted.

I then plugged them in, one at a time, and I struck an A major power chord, and (using a quality decibel meter), I measured the immediate volume of each striking in dB’s.
The decibel meter was firmly mounted on a mic stand, and the position never changed.
It is a Dr Meter MS10 model, and measures noise from 30 dB to 130 dB, with a +/- 1.5dB accuracy. 

Each guitar got 3 or 4 passes, just to check for consistency of dB readings. 
I was extremely careful to phrase the A chord the same on every guitar, and to hit the strings relative to the distance from the bridge, precisely the same each time. 

The Les Pauls had various pickups in them, mostly factory stock, and the 1991 Fender Strat Plus was equipped with Fender Lace Sensor gold pickups, a favorite of Eric Clapton himself.
I included some control guitars, (red herring guitars??) a Fender Telecaster a Stagg Les Paul copy, and a Gibson Firebird Zero. 

Here were the readings after the experiment was over:
Gibson Les Paul Modern Lite - 498T humbucker - 110 dB
Gibson BFG - Gibson 500T "Super Ceramic" humbucker - 110 dB
Stagg Les Paul Copy - Stagg Humbucker - 106 dB
Gibson Firebird Zero - Double Slug humbucker - 110 dB
Fender Performer Telecaster Hum - Double Tap™ humbucker - Yosemite single coil - 94 dB neck humbucker, 100 dB bridge single coil
Stratocaster - Lace Sensor gold single coils - 95 dB bridge single coil, 95 dB middle single coil

As you can see, the Stratocaster was not as loud as the Humbucking Les Pauls, or indeed most of the other guitars period.

Tonally, sonically, they all sounded wonderful.
Which one was best?
That depends upon your ear and your preferences.

Some people consider Carried Underwood a much more powerful singer than Aretha Franklin. 

I'll just leave that right there. 

😐

Someone had lots of free time on their hands. Now tackle why a 100 watt SS amp does not sound as loud as a 100 watt tube amp.

Edited April 5 by Sgt. Pepper

[sparquelito]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:02 PM, jdgm said:

The Eric Clapton signature Strat has (and always has had) an active circuit; 25db mid-boost and TBX.

That's why.

The guy I responded to in the internet posting in question claimed that the Eric Clapton signature was sixteen times more powerful than any Gibson Les Paul equipped with humbuckers. 

I'm aware of the mid-boost circuitry on the EC model, but I don't think our friend understood the math. 

I endeavored to give him just a bit of comparative data, within my equipment left and right limitations. 
🥲
 

[sparquelito]

9 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Someone had lots of free time on their hands. Now tackle why a 100 watt SS amp does not sound as loud as a 100 watt tube amp.

I'm fully retired now. 

I have LOTS of free time on my hands. 

😀

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 minute ago, sparquelito said:

I'm fully retired now. 

I have LOTS of free time on my hands. 

😀

I know. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Sparky stop your amp comparison. Ghost did it for you.

[Sheepdog1969]

48 minutes ago, sparquelito said:

I'm fully retired now. 

I have LOTS of free time on my hands. 

Maybe the "Clapton" guitar had one of those "dinosaur oil plastic" pickguards. Apparently, they make all the difference, lol.

 

 

 

[Larsongs]

On 4/4/2024 at 10:02 AM, jdgm said:

The Eric Clapton signature Strat has (and always has had) an active circuit; 25db mid-boost and TBX.

That's why.

This.. It indeed does have Battery Powered Active Electronics.. And it is a powerful Guitar. By no means a non active standard Strat.. No comparison… Totally different Guitar..

Edited April 6 by Larsongs

[sparquelito]

8 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Sparky stop your amp comparison. Ghost did it for you.

It's okay. 
I'm on to more important scientific experiments and developments now.

I'm working on developing a Tone Meter (or computerized tone measuring apparatus).  

Think about it. 
You can measure, and  therefore quantify, a guitar or amplifier's sound in terms of Volume, in Decibels, using a decibel meter.
We can measure, and therefore quantify, a guitar's sustain, in amplitude and seconds, using an oscilloscope. 

But to this date anyway, you can never measure or quantify a guitar's, amplifier's, or player's TONE. 
Not scientifically anyway. 
Tone has always been discussed as an intangible, emotional, subjective opinion more than anything else. 

I'm building a digital catalogue of song passages featuring the guitar playing of noteworthy guitar playing artists noted for their unique and exceptional guitar tones. 
The reverend Billy F. Gibbons.  Jeff Beck. Mark Knopfler. Stevie Ray Vaughan. Bonnie Raitt.
Link Wray, Wes Montgomery, Edward Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Malcom Young, Eric Clapton, and even Slash.
And possibly more.

I'm also developing a computer algorithm  (or multiple algorithms) that will measure human physiological response to dozens and dozens of different recorded guitar song passages, and transpose those into a tangible, measurable figure or score. 

Each human subject will voluntarily place themselves into my care, one at a time, and they will be seated in a comfortable leather recliner, and fitted with a quality set of audiophile head phones. EKG leads will be placed on their bodies, along with equipment that will measure respiration rate, perspiration, and forehead skin temperature,

I considered using a rectal core temperature probe instead of the external skin temperature measurement, that that introduced a variety of confounds and undesirable variables.

Once the data are compiled and fed into a high speed computer, we will finally be able to assign a numeric score to any given guitar player's tone. 
Following that we would introduce variables such as types of wood body construction, fret size, guitar pickup types, and yes, even the type of pickguard. 

I consider this to be quite possibly as noteworthy a scientific advancement as Louis Pasteur's development of pasteurization, Thomas Edison's invention of the light bulb, and Albert Einstein's authorship of The Theory of Relativity. 

I'm steadily building the lab, but I'm going to need around a hundred volunteer test subjects, and a grant for no less than $17,000,000 in US Dollars. 

Do any of you know of any wealthy philanthropists or government agencies interested in funding my study?

If so, I could sure use a hook up or introduction. 
Thanks in advance!

😐

[Dub-T-123]

Hit me with that rectal probe Sparky! Nobel prize here we come 

[Larsongs]

The guy on that forum must’ve been talking about the more recent Clapton Signature Strat which has Active Electronics.

Was your A/B Test with the Signature Clapton Strat with Active Electronics? If not, that would explain the difference…

As mentioned there are lots of Clapton special, signature, Ltd edition & Custom Shop models.. But, the guy on that other forum had to have been talking about one of these or one of the others with Active Electronics.. That’s the only thing that makes any sense…

 

Edited April 6 by Larsongs

[ksdaddy]

15 minutes ago, Dub-T-123 said:

Hit me with that rectal probe Sparky! Nobel prize here we come 

I refuse to sit on anything smaller than a football. 

[Dub-T-123]

1 minute ago, ksdaddy said:

I refuse to sit on anything smaller than a football. 

We’ve got you covered bud 

[Dub-T-123]

Or should I say I’ve got your back lol

[RBSinTo]

2 hours ago, sparquelito said:

It's okay. 
I'm on to more important scientific experiments and developments now.

I'm working on developing a Tone Meter (or computerized tone measuring apparatus).  

Think about it. 
You can measure, and  therefore quantify, a guitar or amplifier's sound in terms of Volume, in Decibels, using a decibel meter.
We can measure, and therefore quantify, a guitar's sustain, in amplitude and seconds, using an oscilloscope. 

But to this date anyway, you can never measure or quantify a guitar's, amplifier's, or player's TONE. 
Not scientifically anyway. 
Tone has always been discussed as an intangible, emotional, subjective opinion more than anything else. 

I'm building a digital catalogue of song passages featuring the guitar playing of noteworthy guitar playing artists noted for their unique and exceptional guitar tones. 
The reverend Billy F. Gibbons.  Jeff Beck. Mark Knopfler. Stevie Ray Vaughan. Bonnie Raitt.
Link Wray, Wes Montgomery, Edward Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Malcom Young, Eric Clapton, and even Slash.
And possibly more.

I'm also developing a computer algorithm  (or multiple algorithms) that will measure human physiological response to dozens and dozens of different recorded guitar song passages, and transpose those into a tangible, measurable figure or score. 

Each human subject will voluntarily place themselves into my care, one at a time, and they will be seated in a comfortable leather recliner, and fitted with a quality set of audiophile head phones. EKG leads will be placed on their bodies, along with equipment that will measure respiration rate, perspiration, and forehead skin temperature,

I considered using a rectal core temperature probe instead of the external skin temperature measurement, that that introduced a variety of confounds and undesirable variables.

Once the data are compiled and fed into a high speed computer, we will finally be able to assign a numeric score to any given guitar player's tone. 
Following that we would introduce variables such as types of wood body construction, fret size, guitar pickup types, and yes, even the type of pickguard. 

I consider this to be quite possibly as noteworthy a scientific advancement as Louis Pasteur's development of pasteurization, Thomas Edison's invention of the light bulb, and Albert Einstein's authorship of The Theory of Relativity. 

I'm steadily building the lab, but I'm going to need around a hundred volunteer test subjects, and a grant for no less than $17,000,000 in US Dollars. 

Do any of you know of any wealthy philanthropists or government agencies interested in funding my study?

If so, I could sure use a hook up or introduction. 
Thanks in advance!

😐

Sparquelito,

I know a guy named "Eddy" who might be interested in funding you.

RBSinTo

[merciful-evans]

I'm retired and still wear a watch too.

[Sgt. Pepper]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:49 AM, ksdaddy said:

I refuse to sit on anything smaller than a football. 

I tried it with a Nurf football but it keeps getting squished when I sit on it.