tired of the misuse of the word F(f)ascist

[FennRx]

it gets thrown around all the time, here and elsewhere. and i'm pretty sure 99% of people who use it don't know what it actually means.

[Murph]

It'll be history in a few years.

 

There ya go.

 

Murph.

[KSG_Standard]

What does it mean?

[Corrosion of conformity]

blast off! its party time! and we don't live in a fascist nation! blast off! its party time! and where the **** are you???

-System of a Down, B.Y.O.B.

[Murph]

blast off! its party time! and we don't live in a fascist nation! blast off! its party time! and where the **** are you???

-System of a Down' date=' B.Y.O.B.[/quote']

 

There ya go.

 

[Jayla]

it gets thrown around all the time' date=' here and elsewhere. and i'm pretty sure 99% of people who use it don't know what it actually means.[/quote']

 

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine as well. I believe, as it is currently used in the U.S., it more often than not means "authoritarian in a way I don't approve of," which I suppose is how you can have the otherwise mind-numbing and oxymoronic "fascist socialist" label.

 

For the original meaning from the man who founded the movement, take a look at Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism." It spells out exactly what fascism was/is.

 

FWIW, Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definition for "fascist":

 

"One of a body of Italian nationalists, which was organized in 1919 to oppose communism in Italy, and, as the partito nazionale fascista, under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), controlled that country from 1922 to 1943; also transf. applied to the members of similar organizations in other countries. Also, a person having Fascist sympathies or convictions; (loosely) a person of right-wing authoritarian views. Hence as adj., of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Fascism or Fascists.

 

DRAFT ADDITIONS MARCH 2006

 

Fascist, n. and adj.

 

* depreciative. In extended use (with preceding modifying word): a person who advocates a particular viewpoint or practice in a manner perceived as intolerant or authoritarian. Cf. FASCISM n. Additions, health fascist n. at HEALTH n. Additions."

 

What interests me is how the term "fascist," like "nazi," has almost been stripped of its actual historical meaning in common political discourse in the U.S. Both words are now used as political put-downs with little regard given to what they really meant/mean.

[KSG_Standard]

The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill. (p. 280)Mussolini's 1928 Autobiography.

 

 

As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.

 

Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

 

 

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.

 

...The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

 

So, it seems to me, that one could make an argument that Fascism and Socialism have some terrible similarities...

 

1) The State is paramount

2) Individual freedom is restricted

3) Personal property rights are non-existent

4) Everyone MUST work for the betterment of the State

5) The means of production are controlled by the State

 

I would not want to be called a Socialist, a Fascist or a Progressive...that's just me. The rest of you can be whatever you want to be. More power to ya!

[MReynolds]

Well it pretty much seems we're headed toward the facist end of the political spectrum...i.e. bailing out all these businesses then being able to tell them they have to get rid of the CEO's or how they have to conduct business.

 

Also some of the other things Musolini's Facist State pushed was: demanding that citizens perform civic duties in the states interest (can you say Americorp?) and having the state to interviene in educational matters, to name a couple.

 

We need to slide the control back across center, back closer to control by the people and less by the government.

[ninety1vee]

i'm a guitarist...

i don't know how to play a fasc.

[wicked1]

 

So' date=' it seems to me, that one could make an argument that Fascism and Socialism have some terrible similarities...

 

1) The State is paramount

2) Individual freedom is restricted

3) Personal property rights are non-existent

4) Everyone MUST work for the betterment of the State

5) The means of production are controlled by the State

 

I would not want to be called a Socialist, a Fascist or a Progressive...that's just me. The rest of you can be whatever you want to be. More power to ya!

 

 

[/quote']

 

Yes, there are similarities between Socialism and Fascism, but not in the way you describe them.

 

In Fascism, the there are individual property rights,BUT the state can tell you what to do with those properties. So, in the case of the Fascist (and also Nazi state of Germany, the state could tell you what to do with your individual wealth. If you didn't comply....well....that's a different story....). In a Socialist state, there are no individual property rights to be speak of.

 

Progressives, as there are seen today, are somewhere between the two--there are individual property rights, but the "free market" is not seen as the be all and end all of the market. Progressives believe regulation is necessary in order to make sure that the best interest of the public is order is attained. Without regulation, corporations will only do what is in their *own* best interest and will not necessarily do what is necessary to protect the environment and/or the worker. (Because this is usually less profitable in the short run).

[wicked1]

Oh...and in Fascism, there *are* individual property rights, but the state can tell you what to do with them. Under a socialist system, all property is the property of the state. Individual freedoms are resticted but there *is* a difference in the property rights.

[MikeRom]

Fascist originally meant to bind an axe handle with wood surrounding the handle to make it stronger. So it's a weaker inner core surrounded by a stronger outter cover. I've never quite been able to figure out how a fascist relates to fascism but my own understanding of fascism is weak.

[FirstMeasure]

 

I have been gassing for this very guitar to go with my Koa 12 string taylor' date=' have you got any pics, I played one here in Bristol but the top wasn't that nicely figured would be curious to know how yours looks plays and sounds.

Who said a thread on fascism would lead to no good

[img']http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp30/RogerGLewis/Guitar%20Stuff/gearpicsjuly08010.jpg[/img]

 

Are you trying to Hijack this thread with Pictures of really nice guitars?..........

[myspace.com/jessenoah]

i'm a guitarist...

i don't know how to play a fasc.

 

 

=D>

rotfl

[Rick]

Fascism is a different thing than Nazi

 

(I'm Italian, so I think i could talk about this argoment XD)

 

and Fascism has done some good things, not only bad things, like alliance with Hitler

[TommyK]

What does it mean?

 

A Fasc is a bundle of sticks or rods. A fasc used to adorn the obverse of United States Mercury dimes.

 

It means alone we are easily broken. Together we are strong.

 

United we stand, divided we fall...

 

That sort of thing.

 

 

Musolini was a Fascist.

 

Hitler was a Socialist.

[grampa]

Oops, hit the wrong button. I'm annoyed when folks toss around "fascist" without knowing what it means. They know it's a bad thing so if you don't like someone, just cqll him "fascist". Someone on the right was asked why they were calling Obama a facsist and he said that the label "socialist" no longer had a negative enough of a connotation any more and maybe the term facsist may work better. Facsism, socialism and communism are all widely misused terms.

[MikeRom]

 

A Fasc is a bundle of sticks or rods. A fasc used to adorn the obverse of United States Mercury dimes.

 

It means alone we are easily broken. Together we are strong.

 

United we stand' date=' divided we fall...

 

That sort of thing.[/quote']

 

Yep, good explanation. Much better than mine. Still don't under stand the realtionship between the fasc and fascism. Maybe there isn't one.

[matiac]

Fascist originally meant to bind an axe handle with wood surrounding the handle to make it stronger. So it's a weaker inner core surrounded by a stronger outter cover. I've never quite been able to figure out how a fascist relates to fascism but my own understanding of fascism is weak.

 

 

Wow. On that bent, the round thing at the top of a flagpole is called the truck.

[milod]

In the fascism concept it's government and business and workers all, in theory, working toward the same ends. The post WWI period was pretty horrid in Europe economically as well as for the loss of far, far more folks than in WWII.

 

So... how do "we" recover from huge economic problems? Well, we'll let the government help big corporations and then the workers also are all in better economic shape. The workers support the government because that way they feel they'll get a paycheck and have goods and services. "Infrastructure" - ever hear the word "autobahn?" is a major part of fascist efforts and also making sure trains run, and run on time as in Italy pre WWII.

 

The government, of course, then directs the economy and everything so things go the direction that government wants it to go.

 

Sorry, but that sounds like something I've been hearing on TV about the U.S. as much as that I've read from history books of the 1920s and 1930s.

 

By the way, I invite anyone to turn off the sound and watch any recordings they might find of TV coverage of the Obama acceptance speech with the Greek pillars in the huge stadium and then check out the Leni Riefenstahl classic Triumph des Willens (Triumph of the Will in English) of the 1934 Nuremberg Nazi Party meeting.

 

Although somewhat colored by different culture, the similarities are incredible. It's almost like a feature film remake of a 1930s black and white film where the "big scenes" are copied. The old silent Ben Hur and the Charlton Heston version is an example of that.

 

But Leni's is the original. It's far too long for modern audiences, but if you forget the horrors of Nazi rule and consider only the style of both the film and the Greek pillar-framed speeches...

 

Leni has been considered by many to have been the most outstanding female filmmaker of the 20th century and IMHO, the true innovator of modern political video. (She was still scuba diving at age 100, btw.)

 

Art.... music, video... politics... <grin>

[rmngretsch14]

Musolini was a Fascist.

 

Hitler was a Socialist.

Well fascism was kind of Mussolini's baby, and while the Nazi party did call themselves the National Socialist party many historians draw distinctions between the inherit rules of national socialism and standardized socialism, not that those differences matter because Hitler just changed the rules of National Socialism when they got in his way. It should be noted however that in standard socialism there is supposed a system of free Democratic elections, of course the Socialist governments we hear about rig elections, and kill off opposition--but that's why we hear about them. Countries like Sweden (a Socialist country for all intensive purposes) don't restrict the rights of their people. The flaw with Socialism as I see it is that in order for the government to control the welfare apparatus of a country, there has to be a sense of National unity, which at this time due to partisan conflicts and general intolerance does not exist. (As far as I can tell from watching both sides of the news and the Gibson Forums)

Oh by the way I posted this in a previous political discussion when both sides started calling each other fascists. The term in general use today is often directed at someone who suppresses another's point of view, and I think it's acceptable in that usage, this is America, respect each others rights.

[rmngretsch14]

Now be reasonable Milod, have you ever seen a political speech made in front of a government building that didn't have Greek Pillars? In the western world governmental buildings use, fro the most part, neo-classical architecture. And I'll be damned if you call Jack McCoy Hitler for speaking to the press on the courthouse steps with pillars behind him (Law and Order reference if you don't watch the show)

[milod]

rmngretsch14

 

Don't downplay my note until you've watched Triumph of the Will.

 

I've been covering political figures for over 40 years, including my first presidential candidates in '66. Hell, you couldn't take a photo of Jimmy Carter without him having a halo because of the way his staff handled stage lighting.

 

As for the courthouse step interviews, I don't watch them on television so much as I "cover" the interview.

 

It's a different thing that I'm discussing here.

 

Don't take my word for it, get the tape/cd, then find some TV coverage of the acceptance speech. The similarity is chilling and I'm not stating that as reflecting political views, but rather as someone who has been in the biz for a long, long time and is a history nut and student of public relations. If you speak or understand German it's more chilling.

 

Anyway.... Yeah there are a few differences. "Yes we can" instead of "Sieg heil;" no uniforms per se. Enough that the cultural differences and color tv as opposed to BW film can give something of a different appearance.

 

Oh ...

 

RE socialism. I had a long talk some years ago with Sen. Tom Daschle when he was Senate majority leader on socializing our health care system. Yes, he's also an old friend.

 

I agree that some things work well only in a pretty much single culture to have a truly republican but socialist government - such as found in Scandinavian nations.

 

Health care is one of them. It'll take a real stretch in the US until we have solid consensus on medical ethics.

 

I'm not just talking "abortion" issues that are hot-button. Tom noted we can't continue to do heart transplants on a 90-year-old diabetic woman because of costs and recovery potential. My response was, "Yup, unless it's your mother."

 

We'll see. Gotta run.

[grampa]

Milod, you are a little paranoid.

[milod]

Granpa...

 

Hmmmm. Is somebody paranoid if something's really out there? Restudy history in Italy and Germany. Get books published prior to 1980, preferably, noting the step-by-step progressions of supporters, etc.

 

Secondly, as I said before, watch Triumph of the Will with the sound off, then ditto the Obama acceptance speech.

 

Third, no, there's not a word-for-word rescripting, but it's too close for comfort.

 

I did take pix of more than a few presidential candidates and seated presidents. I'm serious that you could not get a pix of Carter without the halo due to lighting setup I'd never seen before or since.

 

I'm also dead serious that until Obama hit the scene, I thought Clinton was the most skilled political figure I'd met - and the meetings with him when he was governor were enlightening due to circumstances I won't go into here. Let's just say we're not talking "politics" but personality and individual capabilities and charismatic confidence.

 

Obama seems much more skilled - or has better handlers. I'm not sure which because this campaign I had no real connections to, nor did I care to.

 

Paranoia? There's no question there is by intent, and by statements of the figures involved, in "remaking America."

 

Good, bad... I have no children and in ways frankly I figure I'm gone in 20 years or less and ain't got a dog in the fight. If this sets up national socialism of a particularly American variety but on a European model, fine. If you're happy with it for your grandchildren, fine too.

 

In fact, your comment "milod, you are a little paranoid" immediately brought to the fore this thought... Depending on the version of the myth/history of the Sybil of Cumae you may have read, I tend at times to identify with the following put rather well by Petronius who also noted how those without study might speak:

 

"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere,

et *** illi pueri dicerunt: Sebulla re theleis;

respondebat illa: apothanein thelo."

 

Until then, I'll keep writing on leaves blown by the wind. I apologize that the Greek isn't properly renditioned in the Latin letters, but what the heck, it's the Gibson forum, not one of the philosophical ones I play on occasionally.