Little victories in the Big Picture

[Blackie]

Every other month there is some new poisonous or suspect crap coming out of China. The tools they make are incredibly cheap and rust at the

hint of rain. I don't think I consciously bought any new but I have never had a craftsman socket break apart on a bolt head like I had happen

with what I would say was sub standard metal. I mean the bolt itself should break before the socket I would think.

[Rewddawg1]

You all have valid points. I agree to the most points made but what consumers are finding is that they can purchase 5 Chinese made products for the price of one well made USA product. Due to consumerism they can buy more junk with less money. Instant gratification. That says tons about the American psyche. The American way has become I want it and I want it now! Most people don't even know or understand the phrase "Keeping up with the Jones'" It all comes down to greed in it's tiniest form. I remember when my family would pay more for Made in USA products because they lasted longer and kept Americans working. That dedication is long gone with the few acceptions. I'm afraid it will take a hard learned lesson of economics among the people to reverse this wrong if it ever can be.

[cookieman15061]

them little yellow men should do things easy to use for us morons).

Hmmm can I quote you on this one?

 

Oh wait I just did.

[zigzag]

I'm afraid it will take a hard learned lesson of economics among the people to reverse this wrong if it ever can be.

 

I'm afraid you're too late for the most part. Most of the jobs are gone. But, we need to buy American while we can. I think it is possible some production can come back to the US, but not soon, and not in the current culture.

[Murph]

We lost the jobs slowly, they can be brought back, but it'll be with diligence. Abilene/Red Wing boots. American guitars, ect.

 

Baby steps, but we have to DEMAND it and be willing to pay more.

[Mr. Natural]

... not to mention melamine in dog food and broccoli. Remember' date=' too, that some of the drugs we buy come from China.[/quote']

 

Mmmmmmmm...melamine...mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Quit it, man; you're making me hungry!

 

Actually (or, acutal, as what's his name would say), a properly catalyzed and cured melamine formulation is GOOD (think "Melmac" dinnerware). UNcatalyzed and UNcured melamine: BAD.

[ksdaddy]

I had melamine dinner plates for years. A few years back I bought another half dozen off ebay, all mismatched from the 50s or 60s. I like them a lot better than the Chinese WalMa....

 

Oh wait, I said that aready....

[Mr. Natural]

Hey, aren't Applause guitars made with melamine? Where's that April issue of VG with the article about Applause? I must've misplaced it. Oh well....

[ksdaddy]

Yeah *cough* you seem to lose magazines lately....

[Mr. Natural]

Ah, yes, but I DO have the May issue in hand.

[Shnate McDuanus]

http://www.americansworking.com/

 

http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm

 

http://www.buyamerican.com/

 

http://www.madeinusaforever.com/index.html

 

http://www.sierravalleytrading.com/

 

http://www.madeinusa.org/

 

-There were more, but a lot of them seemed a little dodgy to me. These all seem fairly reliable, though, just going on sight. I hope these help.

[milod]

Okay...

 

There are several problems with China in terms of both competition and quality.

 

1. Basically the Chinese government runs it all, one way or another. That's not necessarily good or bad. Remember some of the horrid stuff we'd all read about in Russia other than some good, solid design of stuff like helicopters, tanks and firearms? The advantages, however, are largely twofold: Lesser regulation and vertical ownership. That last means that if you own the iron mines, the electric supply, the steel mills and the the final consumer good manufacturing, you've a huge advantage in production. The main "profit" simply goes into government coffers to keep people working at a general level of productivity and happy enough they don't wanna revolt.

 

2. "Government regulation" has a different purpose - i.e., the purpose mentioned in #1, not consumer safety, protecting birds or such stuff. Only when there's a scandal as in the melamine thing, does it cause local problems or a cut in purchase from overseas buyers.

 

3. Again, the long term function of society as opposed to any individual benefits is a cultural imperative. I've yet to talk to an urban Chinese who doesn't believe the one child per family law is currently of benefit to his/her country. Ask folks in almost any non-Asian country, regardless of population density, and you get a different answer from their own cultural beliefs. It's part of Chinese life to figure on the long term, not the short term or that deity will intervene at some point. In fact, forget the word "communist" and insert something along the lines of "traditional imperial bureaucracy" and things ain't changed much for a cupla thousand years.

 

4. Actually the Epi examples I've seen were far better than equivalent "imports" in the 1960s as musical instrument production got under way in the Western Pacific, and far better than many "American made" instruments of that same era. And don't forget that Japanese quality was looked at with even more disdain in the 1950s with lines like, "I scraped the paint off a toy truck from Japan and saw the Budweiser paint was still there." The Chinese have a tradition of good quality, pride in workmanship and innovation - just like "European" nations. They also, as in #3, have a culture that appreciates its own tradition. Rejection of that tradition is only when the bad stuff in society brings an obvious breakdown and change in the "mandate of heaven."

 

m

[jamman]

For the corporate profit , this Country has been in a slow desent ( for many years ). It's a sad comment on what we are doing to each other. All for a buck.

[Rocky4]

What about this idea for the big picture. The global economy has more to do with peace, than economics. Nuclear weapons means we all destroy each other in a war. But, if we are all reliant on each other, we think twice before starting any military action. If China attacks us, they lose the American dollars that fuel their economy. I think I heard this on Glenn Becks radio show last week. Might be reaching a little, but it's interesting to think about.

[milod]

Yeah...

 

I was just reading about a war between the states in the U.S. - and not the one most of us would think about. It was between Iowa and Missouri in the early 19th Century. The trigger for a literal armed conflict had to do with bee hives that in a more natural environment happened to be in trees.

 

People can be a bit odd on occasion, but yeah, I think economic warfare is the wave of the future for nations of "power." Finding economic niches is an interesting challenges for those nations that lack major "power."

 

m

[retrosurfer1959]

The general consensus that we can't do anything about it is what needs to change you can you can do it yourself if you make the choices and are willing to accept the products still made here and there's a lot. I posted a picture of my butt earlier not to be rude but to show the logo from all american clothing which is 100% made in the United States. and I check what they mean when they say 100% made in USA to make sure they have the same definition that I do. when I buy clothes made in america the questions start is it made here or assembled her or final assembly here of all the other tricks and I won;t accept any bad answered - on jeans 100% USA made jeans to me means US cotton taken to a US fabric house to Produce Denim from us cotton using us dyes, I also want to know the thread, the rivets, the zipper all local sourced. I pay 15 dollars more for a simple well made jean with a pleated crotch for greater comfort on my family jewels. I don't get any fancy logos sown onto my pockets and the knees are not torn out so guess I need to do that on my own = If you want the big leather tag to advertise your pants name they will make them for you cost a extra 5$ and won't show a cool picture it will be your choice of a major us union or the simple words made in the USA. I buy more t-shirts and socks there and thats pretty much all I wear now as retired.

 

If I want a logo shirt then I get a regular shirt and air brush the logos needed and if I can't spray it I print silkscreen and design my own shirts use a ink dye transfer silkscreen.

 

I wear a old pair of Doc Martin from London the old shop and my casual shoes are made by a friend who makes great sandles and pull-on type shoes in leather.

 

If I need a belt I build it if I need jewelry I cast it myself so not always easy but possible if you want to put the time in it. I think I saw a perfect demo of the trouble were in on purchasing while I was in a military surplus store they had a big display of bandanna's one said 200 colors and patterns to choose from 79. cents the next shelf was quite a bit small probably 30 design but clearly better made and larger 27x27 vs the measly 24x24 the sign said large size and made in America form American fabric mills only cost $5.50 so there a choice, 200 bright crappy Chinese bandannas that will last one or two washing and disintegrate or pay $6.00 for a large very well made USA bandanna. Most of the young shoppers were digging thru the chinese rack to get 20 different colors and match each=h other and everybody Me and 2 other old guys shook our heads and we each paid 12 bucks for the bark brown and olive drab bandanas we had all purchased.

 

 

I won't buy hip cool **** because it's from a graphics design for a global market house

 

I buy american cars when possible. when not possible like the Mercedes I buy a local dealer and I do a private funding lease I lease the foreign car and I lease it through my own banking for approval so the majority of fees which are almost all financial costs are done by our bank not theirs and the majority of the money stays here with the lender.

[zigzag]

The business I'm in is the development and manufacturing of printing inks and coatings. The components that go into our products are solvents, polymeric (usually synthetic) resins, dyes and pigments, and other additives like oils, waxes and silicones. Most everything we use is made in the US, except dyes and pigments, which are the most expensive components. We buy, as do our customers, on price. Service runs a distant second. When pigment manufacturing moved off shore, it went to India, then to China. The price of pigments dropped, and so did the quality and consistency, although pigments from India are far superior to Chinese.

 

I think what has happened with pigments is very typical of many Chinese exports. I think there is a lot of corruption in the Chinese system. I think that the Chinese will often cut corners and make substitutions where they can get away with it. And overall, in our industry, I believe they make an inferior product.

 

The world has become so price conscious that quality and service have become very rare commodities. As a producer, we are caught in the middle. We squeeze our suppliers the same way we get squeezed by our customers.

[tulsaslim]

This is not a liberal-vs-conservative thing because I don't know who is responsible but the entire 'Free Trade' movement is responsible for our demise. First of all, 'free trade' only counts when both sides participate. At last count, the U.S. is the ONLY country in the world that even tries to practice it.

 

When we allow every country in the world to ship their goods over here virtually duty-free yet every one of those other countries either forbids American goods or charges a prohibitive tarriff for them what do you think is going to happen?

 

I say if you want to save what's left of American manufacturing establish a system of protective tarriffs for our goods IMMEDIATELY! If other countries complain, tell them to look in the mirror.

[vourot]

Tulsaslim, look no further than the softwood lumber industry. That has been a very touchy issue between Canada And the US off and on for years despite " Free Trade ".

[zigzag]

I agree slim, but I think the biggest problem with manufacturing in the US is the high cost of doing business- labor (wages), unions, insurance, taxes, regulation, etc., etc.

[vourot]

Does buying a foreign make of vehicle that is made in the States count as an "American " car?

[zigzag]

Does buying a foreign make of vehicle that is made in the States count as an "American " car?

 

That's the $64,000 question. In a global economy, the question really is, how much money stays in the US? We also have to realize that there are US companies abroad that bring profits into the US.

[Artie Owl]

China is quickly becoming a middle class country and will be subject to the same consumer problems we in the west are. More and more manufacturing is being outsourced to S.E Asia instead of China. The rising middle class will create whole new problems for the giant dragon, and we will eventually see a return of goods being manufactured here in Canada and the U.S. The whole thing is very cyclical and it's only a matter of time before trends shift back to us, especially with so many people like yourselves dissatisfied with the quality of stuff produced.

When there is a demand for it, it will eventually be filled.

 

As for the whole question of quality, well that isn't China's fault as much as it is the corporation, depending on what they want to spend on it's inital manufacture. If everything we bought from China was crap we just wouldn't buy it anymore. Companies realized years ago that if they make a super quality product they'd have a loyal customer base, but only sell a marginal amount of product vs an average product that needs replacing frequently. People weren't satisfied but because of how disposable most of our technologies are now they didn't react anyway.

 

Milod you're right by the way Zhong Guo (Chi-na) does literally mean the middle kingdom because of the mentality that they were (are) the center of trade, and culture. Free tip to anyone who goes, NEVER pay VIP pricing for anything because you pay more for it, since they think you can afford it, and NEVER completly clean off a plate as it is an insult to your host, it makes them feel like they didn't feed you enough.

[zigzag]

Pretty perceptive, Art. I've had the same conversation with others. Seems China may be going the way of Japan in that regard. Seems like South Korea may be on the rise now. I can see the African continent being the next China in a decade or two, if they can get a grip on their politics and culture. As long as there are countries with cheap labor, manufacturing jobs will still be rare in the US, unless US workers are willing to work for a lot less and companies are relieved of their responsibility to provide health insurance and are given tax incentives to manufacture in the US. Unfortunately, the only way to relieve companies of having to provide health insurance, and insure that all Americans have affordable health insurance, is with a public option and regulation of hospitals and drug companies. (...he said expecting an onslaught of rebuttals.)

 

How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm...

 

It's gonna be interesting to see how the politics change with a more affluent Chinese middle class that has had a little taste of Capitolism and Democracy.

[Artie Owl]

Zigzag, thanks for the reply. China is a fascinating place and obviously an economic juggernaught, and it's funny to think of how little we understand them, vs how well they understand us. Confusianism is a great place to start to get an understanding of mentalities and attitudes in China, there are loads of other places to get info, but it's a good place to start.