it's time to go small...diddy guitar advice?

[Jinder]

Hi all,

some of you may remember me mentioning my right shoulder probs a few weeks ago...I've been seeing a physio who has told me that my problems are due to spending the best part of the last ten years reaching around a big guitar (mainly my SJ200) for a couple of hours a night, often 4-6 nights a week.

 

Despite my protestations that when playing a small guitar I resemble a bear wrestinling with a twiglet, he has told me that, as a 6'6" tall guy, it's time to "swallow my vanity" and start playing a small guitar.

 

My problems are lessened by my Hummingbird, but not ameliorated completely...I owned a Guild GAD 30R for a while that was extremely comfortable to play and didn't give me any shoulder pain at all, but I had to return it as the bridge had started to lift. The replacement did exactly the same thing, despite the humidity control in my house, so Guild GAD series guitars are out for me! I gather they're having problems as the wood they are using is very 'green'.

 

So, what would you guys and girls recommend?

 

I'd like to stay Gibson if possible. I like L00s, would be interested in playing a Robert Johnson, and once owned a CJ165 which I LOVED, but had to return as it had a weird indentation in the top-this was when Rosetti lost the UK Gibson distributorship, and unfortunately I couldn't get a replacement-Roseti simply took the guitar back and refunded my local guitar emporium.

 

I'm open to all suggestions...unless i take action now, my shoulder problem is going to get progressively worse, so I'm keen to make a move in the next two weeks.

 

Sadly my Hummingbird is likely to have to go on the block to finance the change...heartbreaking, but I rely on my live work to pay the bills, and if my shoulder ends up needing surgery I'm going to be in a lot of trouble, so it has to be done unfortunately...sigh.

[petewaugh]

Hi, I had a similar problem with my J200 (age doesn't help either....) and suffered with shoulder and thumb pain. I bought a Keb Mo Bluesmaster a few months back and it has been a blessing both in comfort and sound. I suppose it's an L00 basically but with the Adi top it's quite a wee beast.

 

Pete

[ksdaddy]

Personally I would be looking into stretching and/or warmup excercises before I'd switch guitar sizes.

[onewilyfool]

Jinder.....please email Nodehopper and get his info on pressure point treatments, streaches etc. He just went through this and really has a great library of stuff you can do......he basically cured himself, when doctors phisios and the like failed him. Good luck with your challenge.....Wily

[Rambler]

Hey, Jinder. Adjusting your strap and stance might be a help. Check out Mr. Ernie Hawkins here. Try bringing the headstock up and hang it high. Strap around the headstock helps keep that end up. A more upright posture than the typical folkie/rocker hunch. Note how straight EH stands.

 

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/keendaddy/Guitfiddles/AJ/Pickers/ErnieHawkinsstand.jpg[/img]]

 

Ernie's a Gary Davis man, so the J200 is his main box. If you do decide to change guitars, Id suggest that the key issue is not the guitar's width but its depth, which pushes the arm away from the body. Skinnier Gibsons in a tall men's include the J180, Every Bros, and the Yoakam YK2, all 16" by 4.5 in Jinder-approved maple. Martin's got the M38 ('16" x 4.250. Check out David Bromberg:

 

A young DB--dont skip the double time part! Statesboro blues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc9QYCVYTp0

A mature DB: Takes A Train to Laugh.

[Buc McMaster]

If you must got to a smaller body instrument, I suggest a Martin 000 of one style or another. Shallow depth, pinched waist......very comfy and wonderful, full tone. My previous acoustic to my SJ200 was a 000-42 and that little body generated more low end than the big Gibson does. And it was a tight, punchy bottom that balanced very well in the overall sound of the guitar. Wonderful piece! Probably should have kept it.......you know what they say about hindsight.......

 

Sorry to hear of your pain. Hope you can work through it with some restoring regimen and keep your Hummingbird and continue to play the 200. But if you must, I heartily recommend a Martion 000.

[bkharmony]

Sadly, my J-200 gives me and my stubby arms fits as well.

 

I've got a 2003 (?) L-4A that is the most comfortable acoustic I've ever played. If you're not familiar with that model, it's basically a stripped-down J-185 cutaway. It's not a 200, but it's close, and I can play it for hours without the slightest discomfort. I'm not crazy about the wood combo (rosewood B/S), but the sheer playability of this guitar has made it my "go-to," even above my Custom Shop J-45. It's even more comfy than that, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. I've measured and compared and studied specs - they should be similar. But for some reason, that L-4A is just the perfect size/dimensions.

 

By all means, look into a J-185 or L-4A. Great Gibson tone, way more comfy than a 200.

[Jinder]

Very interesting responses, thanks guys!

 

The Physio's diagnosis, after his extremely unpleasant and lengthy examination of me, was that I had muscular and (the more serious bit, apparently) tendon damage caused by ten years of playing a couple of hundred gigs a year with big boxes, and that stretches, warmups etc will help, but only slow the progress of my problem ultimately.

 

He did mention playing position making a possinle difference, but in the last few months I've tried every position I can think of to help make getting through a two hour show easier (sitting, classical seated waist-on-left-leg position, standing with the guitar high on the strap, low on the strap, neck angled up, neck angled down, guitar tucked around to my right hand side) and it all seems to lead back to the same discomfort.

 

The thing that leads me to believe that guitar size is the problem is not only what the physio said, but also the fact that when I played my former Guild GAD30R, I could play lengthy gigs with no discomfort at all-for those unfamiliar with it, the 30R is an OM sized guitar with a relatively shallow body-probably around 4"-4.5", as you mentioned for the Everly and Yoakam Gibsons, JK.

 

The problem is also slightly lessened by playing my Hummingbird as the lower bout is smaller and I think the guitar may be fractionally shallower than the SJ200, but the problem is still there, just lessened.

 

I have another physio appointment in three weeks, so I'll see what happens then and report back.

 

Thanks so much for all your help and advice, it's very much appreciated.

[Paul E]

How about an LG-2. Great sounding guitar,kind of middle of the road in size.

[SweetMarie]

Have you looked at Eastman Guitars? They're better known for their jazz guitars, but their acoustics are quite nice.

 

http://www.eastmanguitars.com/products.php

 

They make a number of small bodied guitars...at one point they even made a 15" archback! I have a slothead AC512 that sounds great and is extremely light.

 

Unfortunately they are getting harder to find....

[jgwoods]

I'm taller than you- 6'8" and some but still find the reach over big guitars gets to me. I haven't wrecked anything yet but 50 years of playing (less per year than Jinder)has taken it's toll.

My take on it is that the deep body makes more difference and the width, and that a narrow waist can help- on the guitar that is, though probably a narrow waist on the player would help too...

My dread nought and J-185 with their 4 7/8" depth make for a much different shoulder angle than my Martin OM did at 4" deep.

If I was to rate them for comfort- worst first:

Dreadnought- deep, not much waist so it sits high.

J-200- more waist but 17" wide still sits high

J-185- 16" wide, still deep, but with narrow waist

Om-21 15"- narrow waist, shallow at 4" or so. Pretty darn comfortable for my shoulder.

Gibson L-00- - narrow, small body, thin waist, should be the real winner but the very small upper bout makes it sit funny( shifts to the right) and I find the OM size more comfortable.

then I've got a Martin Graphite II and it is like playing a Strat- 3.5 inches deep, 14" across the top, the most comfortable of all, but the sound won't make a j-200 guy happy.

I've looked around to try and play a Martin M size, aka OOOO size- a big guitar but not a dep one, and it has a curvy waist unlike a dread. It might be the way to go big, and comfortable.

[lespaulj45]

2006 Gibson les paul std

2007 Gibson J-45 Std

 

ameliorated? wow! I cant even pronounce it- I had a similar problem so I bought the J-45,it doesnt make me feel like I am stretching over a 55 gal barrel....

[Jinder]

Very interesting as always...I thought about an L00 as I adore my friend Lotte's Legend L00, but I agree about the slightly odd angle for lap playing.

 

I think the comfiest guitar I ever played was a 2001 Emmylou Harris L200 (old shape) that was in my local guitar shop a while back. I spent a week getting the money together to buy it, went back and the original owner (who had it there on a consignment sale) had decided to keep it and had taken it home. It was an incredible guitar, and felt like it was part of my body after half an hour of playing. I'd definitely entertain the idea of one of those.

 

The CJ165 I used to own sounded great and felt extremely comfortable, too. Kinda like having a little maple cat curled up on your lap!

[wonderful remark]

CJ 165 would be your answer...... i would say....

[bkharmony]

The CJ165 I used to own sounded great and felt extremely comfortable' date=' too. Kinda like having a little maple cat curled up on your lap![/quote']

 

Yeah, I played one recently, and as a big cat, er.... guitar guy, I was surprised how much I liked it. Good sound. Not loud, but if you're running through a PA/Amp anyway, what does it matter?

[bkharmony]

How about one of these, Jinder?

 

http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29765

[onewilyfool]

How about one of these, Gibson Chet Atkins SST:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330418263840&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=M*S%3F&GUID=d47895a81260a0268124abd4ff9406ea&itemid=330418263840&ff4=263602_263622

 

 

Apparantly Epiphone makes a similar less expensive model too.....

[ponty]

I have always like small guitars. The L-00 deep body was fantastic, don't see too many of those. J-200 Junior? a J-200 in a J-185

size.

My Martin 000-28 custom (exactly like EC, but no EC signature or label) £1700 ono!

Then, outside of the USA beauties, Lowden S models, K Yari New Yorker (loverly!), Atkin 185 and Patrick Eggle.

I dont think the robert J model would be the right fit for your music -

However, the Gibson CJ-165 would be ideal.

[rar]

Maybe one of those shallow-bodied AJs -- here's a link -- would be worth considering. (I lean toward the "depth is more of an issue than width" theory.)

 

-- Bob R

[Guth]

Jinder,

 

I saw your post earlier today (I sometimes scan the forum during the day, but don't post during work) and I wanted to let you know that you have my sympathy.

 

When I saw your post earlier today, one of the thoughts that went through my mind was how many people here have commented favorably on the CJ-165 in the past. Not too surprising to see the comments involving the CJ-165 popping up today.

 

I don't know how much of the fretboard you consume when playing, but if you do find yourself looking outside of the Gibson range, I've always found the 12-fret 000 to a very interesting beast (and I guess a cutaway is always an option). In addition to my J-45, I own an OM and it is certainly a very comfortable guitar to play. I've owned it since 1995 and at the time I was not very familiar with the 12-fret 000 (there were hardly any being built at the time). Had I known about them back then, my OM might very well be 12-fret 000 instead.

 

Regardless, I wish you luck in finding a smaller guitar that you are able to bond with.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Rambler]

Jinder, I may be off the mark, but I hear you as a chord /strum player. if that's so, Im not sure if concert size (15" and under=LOO, Lg, 000, Om etc) is going to move enough air to satisfy.

 

The CJ or Miss Emmy might work, tho at 4.5" wide they arent that much smaller. Taylor makes some nice guits in the small jumbo/grand auditorium range. Im not a fan personally, but blues cats like John Cephas and Corey Harris, have used so cant be all bad. Those M-series Martins = better balanced, stronger mids than the average CFM but might seem like small beer after your Gib. Good luck. j

[MusicbyFirelight]

I'm with jkinnama re caution -- you'll get totally different output from a small-body Gibson. My '67 B-15 has glorious tone, but it would be like taking a glass princess to a rodeo: The git's gotta fit more than just your body...

 

Just my two cents...

[Guth]

I didn't catch jkinnama's suggestion of the M-series Martins earlier. I heard someone playing one of these last year and it sounded really good (picked and strummed). Don't know how hard it might be to find one of these, but I too think this is a choice that would be worth investigating.

 

Guth

[Jinder]

The Martin M-Series is an interesting proposition...I played one of these recently, which was FS secondhand...nice tone and dimensions, but this particular example needed a neck reset, so wasn't a potential purchase.

 

I'd definitely consider one if the right one came along, though.

 

The reason why I'd like to stay Gibson is the necks-I find Gibson necks so comfortable, they feel like home to me.

 

I'd be keen to try an Everly Bros. J180 as you mentioned, JK, I've always liked the look of those although they are extremely scarce here in the UK. I do play rhythm but I almost exclusively fingerpick when playing live (all bar 2 or so songs), so an all-rounder would be nice.

 

I'm going to go on a guitar shopping rampage in the next fortnight, try a few and see what gives...I'll report back!

 

Thanks again for all your help and advice, everyone :-)

[nodehopper]

I definitely know what you are going through and can only say ...pay attention and don't let it get worse or out of control.

 

I guess I am hyper-sensitized to the idea of anyone playing guitar (or anything else for that matter) and feeling pain. Definitely if something feels even a little bit painful ...stop and rethink your posture - position - whatever so you don't hurt yourself. I have been dealing with 9 months now of throbbing pain in my right arm and shoulder. I have been to 2 G.P's - 1 Neurologist - 1 Kinesiologist - 1 Chiropractor - 1 P.T. and 2 massage therapists. I have gotten diagnosis of Tenosynovitis - Tendinitis - Carpal Tunnel - Cubit Tunnel Entrapment - Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. The two G.P's ....as soon as I said I do IT work and play guitar ...you could see their minds shut down and the words Carpel Tunnel automatically come out of their mouths and that was that! It is not Carpel Tunnel!

 

My issue started as mild pain in my ring finger. I had learned to fingerpick with three fingers and thumb.....so I relearned everything and changed to using just thumb - index and middle fingers. With in a month or two though the pain ended up effecting all my fingers and moved up my arm all the way into my shoulder. I also switched to playing mostly in a classical position simply because it puts much less strain on the upper body because the arm doesn't need to wrap around the guitar as far way from the body. I sold my bigger guitars and bought a very small parlor guitar. I was doing everything I could think of to get back to playing guitar.

 

 

So regarding the solution to my issues...I have found a book that has significantly helped and would HIGHLY recommend this to everyone who has any discomfort.

 

 

The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief, Second Edition by Clair Davies

 

This is a workbook, you have to learn the anatomy of your problem, find the knotted up muscles (the knots or trigger points can be as small as a pea). The knots or trigger points shorten the muscle, which then pulls on the tendons and joints the muscle attaches to, this will cause the surrounding areas to develop trigger points. In my case the pain in my hand was caused by a couple knotted constricted muscles up in my shoulder that was pulling the tendons and muscles from my shoulder which in turn were...pulling on the triceps then that pulling on the tendons in my arm all the way down to my fingers.. This book is a life saver for me and was under $20 through Amazon.com.

 

The other thing is as has been mentioned --stretching. The combination of learning the anatomy and how things work along with the trigger points and the correct stretches are the keys!

 

You have to think of this as taking charge of your own body and figuring out your particular issues and how to treat yourself. The science behind this book is very strong, yet since it doesn't involve a doctor $$ giving you a prescription $$$ and sending you to a specialist $$$$$$ who recommends Surgery $$$$$$$$$$ ...most doctors don't think in terms of muscular-skeletal pain causalities or therapy.

 

Here is a really great website to learn all about the anatomy and the bio-mechanics.

 

http://www.getbodysmart.com/ap/muscularsystem/menu/menu.html

 

It is a very interactive web site.....click to look at shoulder muscles and arm muscles and then use the interface to drill down to the individual muscles. There is even an interactive diagram that shows how each muscle moves.

 

Oh and by the way.... +1 on finding a CJ-165 if you want an all around small body Gibson!!

 

Good luck and I hope your pain goes away.

 

Stephen