PP_CS336 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 There's been a lot of talk recently (over the last year) about quality of guitars (mostly electric) manufactured under the Epiphone name. Some feel that the move of manufacturing from Japan or Korea to China has made the quality of the workmanship go down. And as we've all discussed initially anything in the 50's-60's that said "Made in Japan" was always the standard joke. Then it was "Made in Korea" and now "Made in China". I would say material that's made in some of these factories that are actually owned by the countries themselves may bring about that lack of quality control. But with the Epiphone Guitar (mother company Gibson Guitars, both American owned companies) now manufacturing overseas (mostly Asia for cheap labor source) this should not be so, although sometimes it is the case. My recent thought is should we be blaming the Japanese, the Koreans, or Chinese if we wind up with a guitar that shouldn't have gotten to the shop in the first place or should we really be blaming the company, Epiphone/Gibson and even their so-called American inspectors. If you notice on the back of all Epiphone Electric Guitars manufactured in Asia, they have a sticker that says, "100% Inspected and Set-Up In the USA by 29" or whatever number the USA Inspector is. If something of quality is not up to standards when they get it, shouldn't the buck stop there if Epiphone/Gibson wants to say they do a thorough inspection/setup, etc. before it gets to the retailer? If it gets through their hands and comes to the store defective, then who's really to blame? Just thought I'd stir up the hornets nest and see what you guys have to say about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, ultimately, it's really up to "Corporate!" They set the standards, dictate/oversee the level of quality and QC... maybe not in person, but they hire the "right" people to DO that. So, if it's failing (and we really don't KNOW that, but are basing assumptions (dangerously) on a few disgruntled purchasers, who...were justified, in being disgruntled, but we have no real way of telling, if that's a trend, or fairly isolated incidents, given the amount produced? But, to answer your querry..."Corporate Gibson," ultimately. IF Gibson monitors this forum at all, which it should, for just "feedback" alone, they'll (most likely) address any real problems, as they come up. There will be some instruments that drop through the cracks! There always are...the thing we, as consumers should do, is not buy them, in the first place, OR...return them, for a replacement, or our, hard earned, money back! So, we have a responsibility, too...not to let shoddy merchandise be acceptable! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Right, wrong or otherwise, it always comes down to maximization of profit. Consider that many defective instruments are not found to be defective by their owners. Some owners will simply correct the defect themselves. The rest are taken care of under warranty. Like it or not, many people are not that picky (or just ignorant) about the small details. I'm not defending shoddy work. It is a shame that company pride, like at Rickenbacker, isn't the norm. Remember, Gibson/Epiphone strategies are driven more by bean-counters than guitar lovers. So, to answer the topic question, blame it on the Wall Street mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PP_CS336 Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Right' date=' wrong or otherwise, it always comes down to maximization of profit. Consider that many defective instruments are not found to be defective by their owners. Some owners will simply correct the defect themselves. The rest are taken care of under warranty. Like it or not, many people are not that picky (or just ignorant) about the small details. I'm not defending shoddy work. It is a shame that company pride, like at Rickenbacker, isn't the norm. Remember, Gibson/Epiphone strategies are driven more by bean-counters than guitar lovers. [/quote'] That's my whole point Ron. So many people in the forum seemed to be putting the blame on the people in the factory making the guitars rather than the corporation themselves. So what you say is true, "Remember, Gibson/Epiphone strategies are driven more by bean-counters than guitar lovers.". And that's really too bad. I saw Ford go down the tubes in the 70's against Japan for the exact same reason; the bean counters were more interested in flooding the market with the product (Production Managers get paid by how much product they produce) than with quality. The bottom line is greed for profit and not quality. Unfortunately for Ford it bit them in the nose and they had to close down some of their manufacturing plants, one being in Mahwah, NJ where I was employed. BTW I got reamed by my foreman a couple of times for stopping the line to fix an error. How's that for good ol' USA quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 It's gotta hit Epiphone first. Their name is on the product. A similar conversation is ongoing in amps.. due to the many delays of the valve senior amps. is it sweetwater, or is it epi. Epi in both cases. The reasons they give for the delays say, to me, we aren't that good at doing this. And I think the same holds true for the quality control issues. Why should we have to tell them those finishes are too thick and glossy making the guitar look cheap? After all, they've been in business a long time, they're supposed to know. Sure, compromise on any assembly line is going to have to happen. We'll always have some guy or some line leader who's going to allow details to pass by, on a given day, at a given moment. Consider fretwork.. just a little off.. most epis I've played, all of them I've had in my hands here, were just a little off here and there. Not a big deal. Just like everyone, and better than quite a few. and price point.. rickenbacker gets some fairly big bucks.. elitists rarely have complaints similar to epis at half the price. Maybe Rick gets it's reputation because they aren't in the mid to low price range to start with. Production is lower, and slower. I can see some of the problems.. I think we all can. And it's worth noting how the time factor is involved.. Epi is expected to ship all over the world. Plus, I count my beans, too.. we're all kinda counting beans in this thread! And then there's good old concensus. A list of our complaints, suggestions, etc.. has to compare to actual sales. So as difficult as it might be for us to agree on what Epis should be, the sales may complicate that further. But it's Epi, for sure. Epi is the name, the product, the reputation, and responsible to the customer. I don't think we're overly picky in here. In fact, I think we're pretty forgiving. And supportive. I think we want the best for Epi as much as Epi, really. But I bet when we hit a clinker we're the ones who turn red. I'm buying the Black and Decker Mouse random orbital sander with Finger attachment this sat. at Ace hardware. To fix the finish on my lp. As many have done and are doing. I think that says a lot about the finish they're producing. I also think the type and number of mods done to Epis in general, says a lot about the product. When people are interested in investing their own time and money to get what they want out of an Epi, that's as solid a product critcism as you can get. TWANG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsaslim Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yeah, and that was back in the days when their motto was 'Ford-Where Quality is Job 1'. (That's why I buy Japanese cars to this day-even if I have to pay more). For many of us who were around in the 'Norlin years', there's a very creepy sense of deja-vu going on. I own approximately 18 Epiphones (so many I can't keep count!) & I believe the Chinese Epis to be, for the most part, 'hit & miss' & a tad below the over-all quality of the Korean models (based on my rather limited sample size). However, what bothers me most is the fact that Epi prices keep going up without the quality being improved. Epi's hardware has always been 2nd-rate and their 'tone woods' seem to be more mysterious every day. It seems that most Epi LPs today are multiple pieces of alder with a paper-thin maple veneer. Compared to the LP-style guitars made in Korea by Ibanez (ART-series), and Michael Kelly (Patriot series), to name a few, Epiphone really comes up short. Both the ART and Patriot guitars use much better materials than Epiphone does and those guitars sell for quite a bit less. Yes, it certainly seems like the bean counters are in charge these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 And, there IS some responsibility, in the dealers, too! They need to cull out the bad stuff, BEFORE it goes on the shelf, in the first place. But, with all these huge "Big Box" stores, and limited knowledge of the sales staff (all too often), that doesn't seem to happen, at least as often as it should! I deal with a smaller dealer, who inspects, and always sends back, defective instruments...even if the defect is small. They flat won't put up with it. Consequently, I've never had a "bad" guitar, from them...of any make! And, they do a free "set-up" and put on your favorite strings, as a part of the deal, prior to shipping...or your picking it up. But, they're a small shop, and not a "Big Box" chain store. So... AND, ironically, they're often sell, for a lot less, than the big chain stores, or on-line retailers. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 In my opinion, it was wrong of Epiphone to lower the quality of the Sheraton, and then increase the price from $599 to $699. It seems a bit cynical, like they are taking their market for granted. I've always been an Epi customer, but I just didn't think the new Sheratons seemed good value at all at $699. I paid $600 for my Hagstrom Viking (also MIC) and walked away feeling that I'd got a good deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Consumerism, in general, is really the basic problem - the "whoever dies with the most stuff wins" mentality. GAS is a popular topic here and that's what I'm talking about. More stuff wins over better stuff. Perhaps the "3 Epiphones vs 1 Gibson" type of argument deserves some reconsideration. Ultimately, the corporations can only get away with what the consumers will tolerate. And today's consumers will tolerate a lot. The examples are so numerous that I won't even try to list them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluezOldy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 ... If you notice on the back of all Epiphone ElectricGuitars manufactured in Asia' date=' they have a sticker that says, [b']"100% Inspected and Set-Up In the USA by 29"[/b] or whatever number the USA Inspector is... You're lucky to get that. I'm sure many new Epi owners in Australia are the first one to open the cardboard box containing the guitar since it left China! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 If Epiphone is assuming (now that the Elitists are gone) that an Epiphone is always somebody's first guitar, then they are assuming that the buyer doesn't know better and will accept something poorly finished. After all, it is just something to learn on, not a professional instrument. The problem is that there is a huge surfeit of beginner guitars out there, and Epiphone buyers are not necessarily beginners. I place the blame at the feet of corporate Epiphone, not the factory workers. I'm sure they are given a quota to meet and don't have carte blanche to hire as many workers as needed to get the job done right. Give me an assembly line mentality, and I'll show you a guitar that is as good as a Ford. Fords aren't good. Toyotas and Hondas are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PP_CS336 Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 You're lucky to get that. I'm sure many new Epi owners in Australia are the first one to open the cardboard box containing the guitar since it left China! BluezOldy, you got a point there. I wasn't even taking into considerations you lads and lasses in foreign countries. Bottom line, it still puts the onus on Epiphone to do better quality control. As many of us have seen and said, if this shodieness continues, I will not buy another Epiphone Electric guitar, especially with the price going up and up. One use to be able to say, "Well I was getting a bargain anyway and I could fix it up for a lot cheaper than buying a Gibson which cost up to 3x as much.". I really don't think that will be the case anymore. As others have pointed out, there is competition from other Asian manufacturers making similar guitars for less cost to the consumer at higher quality, which is what Epipihone was once doing themselves. I'd just hate to see Epipihone ruin it's reputation and lose out in the market because of shody workmanship due more to profit greed on the American corporate owner's part than on the manufacturer, i.e. the foreign worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 If Epiphone is assuming (now that the Elitists are gone) that an Epiphone is always somebody's first guitar' date=' then they are assuming that the buyer doesn't know better and will accept something poorly finished. After all, it is just something to learn on, not a professional instrument. The problem is that there is a huge surfeit of beginner guitars out there, and Epiphone buyers are not necessarily beginners. I place the blame at the feet of corporate Epiphone, not the factory workers. I'm sure they are given a quota to meet and don't have carte blanche to hire as many workers as needed to get the job done right. Give me an assembly line mentality, and I'll show you a guitar that is as good as a Ford. Fords aren't good. Toyotas and Hondas are good.[/quote'] +1 The workers in any factory generally do what is required of them by management. Its either management not adhering to standard protocol, or corporate not setting the standards high enough - or following through with inspections. You can blame corporate Epiphone or corporate China all you want and probably be right. But its not the worker bees (usually) that are to blame. And if one screws up, QC should be there to make the call. The blame lies somewhere between QC, Management and Corp. Epiphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashole Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Fords aren't good. Toyotas and Hondas are good. And Subarus! Love my '01 Forester! Best vehicle I've ever owned, so far...others were built by Ford, Olds, and Huyndai...(which are a lot better these days I think than the one we had(talking Hyundai)...late '80's hatchback...cheap car, all "working parts" broke off (window handles, door handles, radio knobs, tape player; you name it, ) But I must admit...it did drive just shy of 300,000 miles...most of the stuff broke during the first 150 000 though! Not including the important parts. None of the Fords got past 150,000, and one of those even had to have a second engine dropped in to get that far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canine Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I never thought about that "setup in the USA" sticker much. But you're bringing up a real nice point. I don't understand why Gibson would insist on a strict quality control. You buy an Epi and you're buying a Gibson, but not really. It's like they tell you it's a Gibson so you buy with confidence, but when you have a problem they tell you it's just an Epiphone. The parts don't match, you can't even install a Gibson pickguard on an Epi, and everybody knows having one single standard for production is what most companies do to bring down costs. Overall, I can't prove this but I got an impression that some of this is done on purpose, you get the taste of a LP with the Epi, but if you want the "real one" then you better pay for a Gibson, that seems to be the message. There's little interest in actually producing a top quality instrument at an affordable price, but I must admit, Epiphone does a better job at just that than other companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 If you notice on the back of all Epiphone ElectricGuitars manufactured in Asia' date=' they have a sticker that says, [b']"100% Inspected and Set-Up In the USA by 29"[/b] or whatever number the USA Inspector is. Interesting... I was just looking at some brand new Epis at the Sweetwater site. Here are a couple of 'back of headstocks' shots: G-400 Les Paul Standard Dot Do you see what I see....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freak show Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 What does the sticker with the crossed out garbage can mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 What does the sticker with the crossed out garbage can mean? It means that the product contains parts and materials that can be recycled. I was more perturbed by the absence of the USA inspection stickers. Looks like QC has now moved to China... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 What does the sticker with the crossed out garbage can mean? It would mean "resist the temptation to throw this guitar in the trash"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Interesting... I was just looking at some brand new Epis at the Sweetwater site. Here are a couple of 'back of headstocks' shots: G-400 Les Paul Standard Dot Do you see what I see....? No EE in the serial number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenrirlupus Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 i honestly don't care too much about quality because i'm not YET in the market for a new guitar, i just don't want products coming here from a communist country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freak show Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 It would mean "resist the temptation to throw this guitar in the trash"? That's exactly how I would have interpreted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freak show Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 i honestly don't care too much about quality because i'm not YET in the market for a new guitar' date=' i just don't want products coming here from a communist country. [/quote'] Are you referring to China or Obama's plans for America's future??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 i honestly don't care too much about quality because i'm not YET in the market for a new guitar' date=' i just don't want products coming here from a communist country. [/quote'] You can't blame the people for that. Sometimes communism works better when you have a bazillion people and not much wealth to go around. And remember that you are buying the guitar for you, not to help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostindesert Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Who should the quality really be blamed on? GIBSON USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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