Artie Owl Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'm giving Stein a +1 just for properly spacing his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Andy... Your point still is that were you to sell or otherwise distribute your work to craft a "Gibson" that is of equal or better quality, you'd mark it as your own work. In the inlay thread I noted my high respect for such craftsmanship. Your work doesn't bother me because it's done with integrity. In ways I've gotta admit I'd prefer seeing an "Andyoriginal" on the headstock, but... <grin> All.... I think one problem on "how much mods before it ain't really a Gibson" is a good question that probably goes mostly to electric guitars. I have personally some mixed emotions. A good setup for an individual artist certainly not. Messing with pickups and pots and switches? I dunno. Probably not, but again, it's kinda on the line. To me the guitar is the non-electric part that can be played without an amp. That perspective probably dates back to when I'd add a pickup to old archtops and flattops in the '60s. But I can argue the other side, too. My early 70s Guild "sg" wouldn't be the same with different pickups, I don't think. My 1950s Harmony jazz guitar to me obviously has had different tuning gear added, the pick guard removed, a Gibson style bridge added and, I believe, a different tailpiece. It's still a Harmony with the same pickup and pots. I think it still would be with a humbucker added one way or another, although I'd be most likely to add a pick guard-held version so it would be least intrusive... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I'm cool with you makin' G-word replicas, Andy, as long as you don't put the g word on the headstock. Hell, I might have you build me one, one day, as long as you change the headstock shape and logo. I would love a Les Paul shaped guitar, but there ain't no way I'm payin' what the G-word wants for one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 There's no legitimate reason to ever put "Gibson" on the headstock of a guitar that wasn't built by Gibson. It's just that simple. Those Shelby Cobra replicas all have features that any Cobra enthusiasts would recognize as not authentic. Plus they are so rare that you can pretty much assume that every time you see one it's fake. It doesn't matter that you have no intention of selling the guitar now. At some point you won't be around to tell folks it's fake and the guitar will be sold into the used guitar market. I think you're a good guy Andy and you have huge talent. I'm not going to hate you if you put Gibson on the headstock of your guitar. But you already know what I and a few others think of the practice so don't be too shocked when you hear it again as you roll out these counterfeit guitars for comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartanbeastie Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I dont mind them looking the same as long as the copies dont carry the logo of the more expensive famous brands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'm cool with you makin' G-word replicas, Andy, as long as you don't put the g word on the headstock. Hell, I might have you build me one, one day, as long as you change the headstock shape and logo. I would love a Les Paul shaped guitar, but there ain't no way I'm payin' what the G-word wants for one There's no legitimate reason to ever put "Gibson" on the headstock of a guitar that wasn't built by Gibson. It's just that simple. Those Shelby Cobra replicas all have features that any Cobra enthusiasts would recognize as not authentic. Plus they are so rare that you can pretty much assume that every time you see one it's fake. It doesn't matter that you have no intention of selling the guitar now. At some point you won't be around to tell folks it's fake and the guitar will be sold into the used guitar market. I think you're a good guy Andy and you have huge talent. I'm not going to hate you if you put Gibson on the headstock of your guitar. But you already know what I and a few others think of the practice so don't be too shocked when you hear it again as you roll out these counterfeit guitars for comment. Yeah I know it wouldn't go over well with everyone here and is not necessarily something that I may want to share or that people would be that interested in as there are plenty of build forums and such. Everyone has their opinion on what's right and wrong, I usually find that most people have something they are viemently against in one way but do the very same in another way... I can say this: If you don't agree with someone hanging the G badge on something that was not created by them I can understand that and wouldn't waste the time to try to convince you other wise. I'm more of a person that considers intent... If it were something I wanted to do for no more reason than "just because" that's my own decision. I know personally that if I were to do something like that it would be for me only... There would be no Serial # or Made in the USA, I would personally know what it is and what it isn't, If asked I would say exactly what it is and what it isn't. If I were to get rid of it for whatever reason, any doubt of what it is or what it isn't would be removed with various other tells included. I would probably even give the forum a heads up and get approval that it was sufficently sanitized... The way I see it I hurt no one and actually only help advertise if someone were to see me playing it out somewhere and they liked it. Pretty much like Slash I guess... How many real Les Pauls were sold because of his fake one? It does nothing to devaluate anyones guitars in this case that I can see... ( I'm open to being wrong here) Again I have no plans of setting up a business nor do I have the time to do much and I get bored with the same thing so I would be moving on to other ideas pretty quickly. To me again, it's about intent... I also would say to make sure you shine a very bright light on what you condem to make sure you're not actually doing the same thing in another way that might be as equally offensive to someone else but just can't see it in the shadow of your own personal morals... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Andy... For what it's worth... <grin> I'd still prefer some other maker mark, but I truly know where you're coming from. And I'll add that you're also absolutely correct about similar stuff most of us don't think of as being similar because... we just don't think of that way. <bigger grin> m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Andy... For what it's worth... <grin> I'd still prefer some other maker mark, but I truly know where you're coming from. And I'll add that you're also absolutely correct about similar stuff most of us don't think of as being similar because... we just don't think of that way. <bigger grin> m Thanks Milod and I haven't even finished a rebuild yet to worry about a complete build yet. I will say I already have some stuff on the way that will be waiting I might yet change my mind. I also figure if it turns out like crap I will create a Searcy and SGFan logo for them and throw them up on e-bay[flapper] I guess I see the G logo more as a symbol more than a brand anymore. I like the way it looks style wise more than anything. Anyway I don't think this thread was so much concerned with what I'm up to as the people who are trying to scam people. Over all I disagree with this but could also consider a scenario where a family without much money wants to give their kid the "Gibson" he always wanted. Maybe he's none the wiser and is very happy with it and becomes a great guitar player one day... See what I mean??? It's a lot to do with intent. Something wrong could be used for something positive,,,, Some of the guys need to be a little less absolute in their judgment especially when they get handed cash for playing a couple hours of music they learned and copied that someone else wrote.... funny where we draw lines... Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Over all I disagree with this but could also consider a scenario where a family without much money wants to give their kid the "Gibson" he always wanted. Maybe he's none the wiser and is very happy with it and becomes a great guitar player one day... See what I mean??? It's a lot to do with intent. Yes, The intent is to lie to the kid, deceive anyone else who sees the guitar and cheat Gibson of its gains. Why doesn't the family buy the kid an Epi or a used Studio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Yes, The intent is to lie to the kid, deceive anyone else who sees the guitar and cheat Gibson of it's gains. Why dosn't the falimy buy the kid an Epi or a used Studio? Calm down there Mr. Grinch... It was just a bit of a "Tiny Tim" Scenario... Sheesh! Turd! Lighten up Francis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Thanks Milod and I haven't even finished a rebuild yet to worry about a complete build yet. I will say I already have some stuff on the way that will be waiting I might yet change my mind. I also figure if it turns out like crap I will create a Searcy and SGFan logo for them and throw them up on e-bay[flapper] Oh I see how it is, The SG Fan Les Paul has to be the crappy one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Oh I see how it is, The SG Fan Les Paul has to be the crappy one Nah I was just kiddin' with you guys! For you i will build an exact replica ( logo and all ) of an Ed Roman guitar!!! [lol] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shnate McDuanus Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Lots of double-standards and reactionary bluster on this thread. Andy, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the G-word replicas that you plan on making would be for your own personal use, and that if they were ever to leave your hands, you would make sure to remove every detail that could possibly deceive someone into thinking it's a genuine article Gibson. Well, I see nothing wrong with that at all, actually. Gibson wouldn't be making money off of the creation of your guitar whether you use their logo or not, so you can't say they'd be losing any more if you use their logo than if you did "the right thing" and avoided using it. Once you're through with the replica and you're getting rid of it, you'll have made it obvious that it's not a real Gibson. You're not scamming anybody by selling it if it has a different logo and headstock design. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with this. Funny...this thread makes me think a lot about my ethics class and the differences between consequentialism and deontological ethics and...frankly, why Kant never made that much sense to me. Lots of appeals to the idea of "moral heroism" on this thread--much of which I see as misguided. Oh well. Andy, I've lost no respect for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 For you i will build an exact replica ( logo and all ) of an Ed Roman guitar!!! [lol] If it sounds and plays good, I'd take it ;) .....after a refin of the headstock :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Lots of double-standards and reactionary bluster on this thread. Andy, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the G-word replicas that you plan on making would be for your own personal use, and that if they were ever to leave your hands, you would make sure to remove every detail that could possibly deceive someone into thinking it's a genuine article Gibson. Well, I see nothing wrong with that at all, actually. Gibson wouldn't be making money off of the creation of your guitar whether you use their logo or not, so you can't say they'd be losing any more if you use their logo than if you did "the right thing" and avoided using it. Once you're through with the replica and you're getting rid of it, you'll have made it obvious that it's not a real Gibson. You're not scamming anybody by selling it if it has a different logo and headstock design. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with this. Funny...this thread makes me think a lot about my ethics class and the differences between consequentialism and deontological ethics and...frankly, why Kant never made that much sense to me. Lots of appeals to the idea of "moral heroism" on this thread--much of which I see as misguided. Oh well. Andy, I've lost no respect for you. Yes exactly. I would never want to be ripped off so if I built something and decided to sell, trade, etc... I would make sure it had no affiliation to the brand and enough differences so it would be easy to detect even beyond the obvious just in case someone wanted to alter it back into an exact replica. To me personally... This is just my opinion... if I build an exact replica of something I may have done the work but it isn't my design, shape, etc... By adding the logo to me it is saying I make no claims this is something original by me.... When I build something original I will have an original logo... Besides if i go through the trouble of building something like what I'm proposing it would never be worth selling for the time, materials and effort I put into it so I would see it as a keeper for me.... I'm not really trying to blow crap to anyone on here about how they feel. I turn people in to ebay as well... Like I said I do see a difference in doing something to scam people for money and something that is private and more of a personal tribute. As i said, everyone has a place where they draw their lines. I realize this isn't the Marshall forum but look at all the clone amps out there now and I don't hear people say much about Marshall being ripped off here when people are talking about them. The funny thing is even if you don't stick a Marshall logo on it and leave it blank people would still think they are Marshall's just from the look of the box and control panel. I will also add this on the subjects of "fakes" I used to work for certain guitar company who's manufacturing plant was in Japan. This company also built guitars for another well known guitar company in the US supposedly only for the Japanese market. I once received a shipment of MIJ guitars and there was a couple of "oops wrong neck and headstocks on them" with complete US branded company headstock. We also received a large shipment where the entire production run had a quirk with the neck pocket. Strangely enough this same quirk showed up on MIM, and MIA branded guitars of the US Brand and I know the bodies were MIJ..... They're not the only ones who do it.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 If it sounds and plays good, I'd take it ;) .....after a refin of the headstock :) OK but you can't remove the Custom airbrush painted picture of his mug on the body! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 OK but you can't remove the Custom airbrush painted picture of his mug on the body! Then I'd put it to good use.........scaring off crows in the garden this summer, LOL!! Sorry for the derail, carry on :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Then I'd put it to good use.........scaring off crows in the garden this summer, LOL!! Sorry for the derail, carry on :) Oh I think I derailed this long ago and everyone could use a chuckle. I'm sure Searcy is fuming with me for calling him a turd! Let's get back to the Chinese fake bashing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Calm down there Mr. Grinch... It was just a bit of a "Tiny Tim" Scenario... Sheesh! Turd! Lighten up Francis! Nice... don't get the approval you ask for so you resort to name calling.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Nice... don't get the approval you ask for so you resort to name calling.... No I don't really care about approval from anyone one way or the other. As far as the name calling I was just kidding with you. I apologize for the offense. Probably a bit too forward considering our limited interactions. A +1 for you on your rebuttal of my initial comment for no hard feelings sake? Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 now, if this is not a coincidence: my good buddy came over today with another guy who wanted help with his amp. guess what this guy had for a guitar? yup, a genuine, gibson forgery. not that i don't like where this thread was headed, i like all the thoughts especially andy's ideas for replicas. a chinese made, les paul custom forgery. complete with gibson style forged headstock, gibson name, and a gibson looking seriel# with made in the usa stamp. also complete with asian style plastic finish, asian style hardware, and asian style dreid out rosewood fretbaord with perfect square inlays. this guitar was made in a factory, set up with all the mass production jigs. i have to admit, the guitar angered me, having it here in person, and witnessing the build and the obvious attempts that were built into the guitar to pass as a genuine article. i think what angered me was that there did not seem to be many attempts to fool a trained eye, but very obvious attempts to fool an untrained eye. as shameless as this guitar was, there is no effort to get the body carve and neck angle right, but the body and headstock seemed to have a perfect les paul shape. this guitar would photograph well, but a blind man would not even be able to consider it a epiphone. i could not bring myself to investigate the build quality too deep or check out the wiring he had done, as i didn't want to really have anything to do with it. i consider myself a pretty open minded guy, and i try to withold judgement. i honestly was taken back by my own emotions by it, and i kept them inside not knowing if i could give any kind of fair comment. i did mention that the noise from the jack was not gibson noise, but a copy of gibson noise. just a little harmless joke, he got it. i don't know this guy too well, but he seems like an ok guy, gave me nothing to think otherwise. i think i see now why some have such emotional reactions to these kind of chinese fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I purchased my first Gibson when I was 10 years old, and when purchasing a guitar, Gibson is always the first consideration. I'm a brand loyalist and always will be, and in being one I feel I should share in the responsibility of protecting the brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Given my bank account, I'll say I'd still far prefer having an Epi than the finest Gibbie "fake." Nothing more to say. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 i just ordered a "fuzzy fred" LP from china and i'm assured that it is a genuine gibson, they also have the old model the "fred61" SG...if ya interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Chinese Fakes are everywhere ya' look these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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