When Henry Speaks

[Californiaman]

the government raid.

 

Henry tells it like it is here.

 

Check it out.

[Riffster]

Of course it is double talk, the raid of 2009 did not produce charges, why?...exactly.

 

The new charges are over a different issue, the issue would apply to all American manufacturers using Indian Rosewood yet only Gibson is being harassed, I would like to understand why is that form the authorities since they would be the party presumably trying to bring charges.

[Californiaman]

Of course it is double talk, the raid of 2009 did not produce charges, why?...exactly.

 

The new charges are over a different issue, the issue would apply to all American manufacturers using Indian Rosewood yet only Gibson is being harassed, I would like to understand why is that form the authorities since they would be the party presumably trying to bring charges.

 

 

I thought it was a pretty thorough interview.

Apparently there's some nefarious undertakings going on.

Are they being targetted?

I'm also puzzled by this prevailing question, "Why is the US Gov. AG going after Gibson and not C.F. Martin or Fender, or any other reputable U.S. based manufacturer?

Also, HJ talks about how costly it's been so far.

 

Why does the Obama Administration want to put Gibson out of business?

[stein]

Thanks for the link. I have looked a lot on the internet, and I can not find ANY information that contains anything that resembles real information except what has come from Henry, and the name of the case.

 

"United States of America vs Ebony in various forms". (or something very close to that).

 

I don't think there IS a case presented to the courts to decide on against Gibson. Except to give the stuff back from 2 years ago, in which Gibson made a request to the courts that there either BE a case or the property returned by a certain date.

[Riffster]

Its also a very political issue yet this thread is still here? I guess its OK to have political issues on Gibson as long as it supports Gibson?

 

Yes, this is their forum, something you haven't understood in years.

[brundaddy]

Yeah. The President of the United States of America is out to get Gibson.

 

I'd say "gimme some of what you're smokin" but I don't want to end up paranoid too.

[Californiaman]

As long it's a civil discussion based on "What Henry said..." I think we'll be OK. But I'm not a moderator.

HJ made some pretty good points without being overly political. It's a great interview.

How many people out of work?

How much loss to the company?

I was amazed at the fact that it was four plants that were raided.

That's a lot of people, money, and down time for the manufacturing plants.

[Riffster]

Not quite, but something fishy seems to be going on.

[BigKahune]

Its also a very political issue yet this thread is still here? I guess its OK to have political issues on Gibson as long as it supports Gibson?

 

Obviously you are unaware that there have been deletions of comments off the several threads running on this topic that were blatantly political. Two facts I find concerning: after two years and two raids, there have been no charges brought and no fines enforced; and none of the confiscated property has been returned.

[Riffster]

Obviously you are unaware that there have been deletions of comments off the several threads running on this topic that were blatantly political. Two facts I find concerning: after two years and two raids, there have been no charges brought and no fines enforced; and none of the confiscated property has been returned.

 

Indeed,

 

Also the claim this time around is that Indian Rosewood that was allowed/approved to be exported by the Indian Government does not have the minimum amount of work required by Indian law, now do you think the Indian Rosewood fretboards in other guitars like Martin and Taylor had more work doen in India to be legal? the frets? the inlays? nah

 

I can order an Indian Rosewood fretboard from Warmoth.com, no problem.

[Californiaman]

Obviously you are unaware that there have been deletions of comments off the several threads running on this topic that were blatantly political. Two facts I find concerning: after two years and two raids, there have been no charges brought and no fines enforced; and none of the confiscated property has been returned.

 

 

That's too bad about the deleted threads.

Let me completely clear about this... I'm with you on your summation of what's going on.

There will be a hearing Monday. I look forward to that.

 

"The Forest Stewardship Council. Something from out of Lord of the Rings!"

 

I can see it now.

"This guitar is Certified by the Forest Stewardship Council."

 

Indian ebony and rosewood fingerboards are used industry wide.

[neilpanda]

It's terrible what the government is doing to Gibson. at this point I'd really like to hear the Feds side of this whole thing. If Gibson ever does go down, I'd better hurry up and get my trad before they're gone.

[milod]

If what HJ said is true about being told to shut down and/or cease interstate commerce, this has to be one of the most ... interesting bits of government work I've ever heard about.

 

Let's see... a non-union shop put outa business in a low personal tax state with traditionally no income tax and a right to work law... and currently it's represented by a majority of Republicans in the House and both senators?

 

Hmmmm.

 

Also, I talked with Nashvillian T.J. McFarland Saturday night (born where I live now) and when he and his wife discovered I was a picker of sorts, the first question was, "Did you hear about Gibson?"

 

TJ played a 1950s Gibson in his solo acoustic set; uses a 3-pickup Harmony electric...

 

http://www.tjmcfarland.com/

 

m

[LarryUK]

This certainly looks to me that someone high up has it in for someone at Gibson. It's got nothing to do with wood.

If it did. PRS etc would have been raided.

[Bob Marsh]

I'll play Devil's advocate: Is it possible that PRS, Martin et al have their paperwork and procedures in order concerning the use of said "Proscribed Materials"?

I'm not intimating that Gibson has committed any wrongdoing, but obviously something has occurred that's gotten under some government agency's collar - Sort of a stretch to think that some government employee woke up one morning and said to themselves " What'll I do today? Ahh...I got it now..let's drop Jolly Old Gibson in the Chopper...That's the ticket!"

[bluzhammer]

Is it 2012 yet?

[cookieman15061]

Paper work in order??!!

Look that stuff doesn't get out of India, through customs and into this country without the paperwork being in order.

 

Have you traveled internationally lately?

Everyone has to have their paper work in order.

 

If you don't believe that this administration would target certain American businesses than you're as naive as they come.

 

Can anyone here say Chicago politics.

[Bob Marsh]

Me...Naive? Me thinks you've been watching a bit of Fox News Fair and Balanced reporting - Mayhaps some Ann, Rush and Glenn. More power too Ye Lad!

[dem00n]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Pl5adfnaA

[milod]

Bob...

 

I'm trying to stay nonpolitical, but here's the problem with being overly critical of what HenryJ might be saying: It can be used in a court of law against him.

 

I do find it interesting myself that a small manufacturing corporation gets into being a target of federal prosecution twice in several years with alleged hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise confiscated but without charges being filed against which Gibson might defend itself.

 

It's the armed bit and obvious physical intimidation in Gibson manufacturing plants of what at worst would be a "white collar" crime that gets to me. Did they really expect an armed confrontation over a Les Paul? If not, why make a point of acting as though they did?

 

HJ knows anything he says can and will be used against him. He can say, "It appears" and reporting that with a video is about as "honest reporting" as one can get, especially in absence of government agents apparent willingness to tell local media what is going on, or in a public record that obviously interested media might wish to examine.

 

BTW, one reason Fox became as popular as it obviously is, has to do with not following an agenda found in other media outlets. No, I do not mean "political" agenda, but rather the habit of "If they have it, we gotta have it too" that should get pretty boring after a while regardless of politics or which three-year-old is rescued from a well. So they went another direction with a batch of "commentators" with different agendas as well as "news" that doesn't necessarily go after "the usual suspects."

 

As a longtime reporter myself, it seems we're getting as much as we're likely to get for a while until somebody is assigned to dig on both sides to find out why a federal agency is so interested in shutting down a U.S. manufacturer. If it's a matter of whether or not some raw material finishing meets this or that requirement, guns seem like a silly response.

 

In fact, even if it's a matter of provably illegal import of any sort of materials worth millions or environmentally "immoral," it seems a bit odd.

 

In the art and artifact world similar concerns seldom have simultaneous swat team raids on museums, yet with similar legal questions. A museum with an "illegally obtained" painting, for example, seldom obtained it themselves but a deep investigation discovered the provenance forged. More than a few scrupulously honest art and museum folks have been "hooked" by provenance issues.

 

But to suggest "the government" is always right is as full of potential error as to suggest it's always wrong, especially if one's own favorites are in current leadership positions. Usually in cases of a degree of certainty, a chief "cop" or "prosecutor" tends to be more than willing to state the purpose of an armed raid.

 

The problem I see is that government is far more likely to remain in business than it is likely that a business it destroys will return.

 

m

[Bob Marsh]

M,

I agree with most of what you say but I'm still unconvinced that the government would target a private institution without some underlying circumstance - Who knows? maybe a disgruntled former employee trying to make trouble? There are myriad ways this could have come about - But I agree most strongly that the drawn weapons and goon tactics seems a bit over the top.

 

As for the alternative media - Just not my cup of tea - I don't see eye to eye with them but I certainly fought for their right to say what they please back in the 70's - Three years that I enjoyed not in the least.

 

I said ( perhaps a bit tongue in cheek) that I would play the devil's advocate - seems I ruffled at least one feather which was really not my intention - merely trying to stimulate a discussion in a fair and balanced manner!

 

B

 

P.S. - As far as favorites - I have none - I'm probably the most apolitical person you're likely to meet and after 64 years of seeing "bipartisan co-operation" I'm likely to remain that way as long as nobody steps on me or mine.

[zigzag]

I am baffled by the government's behavior. I cannot understand why the government, in light of all the publicity, has chosen to remain completely silent to the public regarding the charges against Gibson.

[rocketman]

You won't hear anything from the government. A colleague from India sent me the same video this morning. Politics aside, no one can dispute that going ofter only ONE company for wood that wasn't processed "correctly" in another country does seem a bit strange. Why put all these people out of work? This is NOT the time to be putting people out of work for even one minute. I'm sure there are much better ways to handle this if the government is indeed correct. Can't they take a sample, make their case and levy a fine? Seems more logical to me...

[milod]

Bob...

 

Unfortunately directly or indirectly I've seen "the government" directly or indirectly (third party encouragement) target specific companies. At times that has come even over the objections of local employees of the agency where things were targeted.

 

Frankly my "politics" tend to be of the sort that has a distrust of large institutions where the face of fellow humans has been obscured by that very size. In the sense used by most more urban types, it's as nonpartisan as one can get.

 

Then again, that may perhaps be why I prefer a region of population densities of roughly .5 people per square mile. Some friends have included a former Democrat U.S. Senate majority leader, the current GOP and Dem U.S. Senators and several GOP former U.S. Senators. Each knew more people in their constituencies by name than you might ever believe - and each "cared" for those individuals whether I agreed with their conclusions or not.

 

In urban regions? I hate to say this, but I have a strong feeling it's their political beliefs rather than their knowledge of those they represent...

 

If HenryJ and/or his company have broken some criminal law, or even a law without criminal penalty, charge them. Take the proof to court.

 

But sandbagging and gamesmanship to achieve an apparent end of breaking the firm without an official court action is unconscionable. Unfortunately I've seen this tactic work, and work with and through federal agencies.

 

One might wonder why it hasn't been used in the slightest against individuals beyond the horribly obvious sort of target as Bernie Madoff instead of those who received commissions for transactions they knew were to the buyer's detriment but were encouraged by policy of various federal agencies.

 

Too, the people doing the actual "work" have to self justify and that brings feelings that one might wish had not surfaced.

 

m

[bluzhammer]

OK gang lets look at this, first I love the fact there are still some "American Companies". I have spent a little time researching this company and the only American art of our guitars is the labor putting it together.

 

If Gibson is innocent then far be it; but that is to be decided by the courts but lets look at the publicly available information on the internet

 

Gibson Guitar sources mahogany from community-managed forests in the Rio Plátano and Maya Biosphere Reserves, where tropical forest areas have been set aside by the Honduran and Guatemalan governments, respectively, to conserve their unique natural and cultural heritage. Not American wood

 

Gibson Guitar purchases the rosewood for our fret boards from India

 

A short bit of online research revealed that the pots on the circuit board in the newer guitars are designed and made by Bourns, which its website indicates are manufactured in Taiwan.

 

The Korean Kluson Tuners are Imported.

 

I have not been able to locate the MFG for the other metal parts but since they are the same as Epiphone parts, need I say more.

 

So for all you flag waving individuals about good ole Gibson the only American part is it is Made in USA, with parts that came from over seas. Now we wonder why Gibson is in trouble again. Yup this guitar is as American as my American Dodge Ramcharger made in Mexico. So lets continue being on Henry's side since he would never intentionally lie or try to deceive us. Good ole Indian, Korean, Honduran and some chinese parts also are on our good ole Flag waving American guitars. Oh there is someone laughing its Henry and crew every time they get on the soap box saying its a "Good Ole American Guitar".

It is a fact of life now , that parts and materials flood in from foreign countries these days. You can thank the GATT and NAFTA treaties for that. We should be thankful that at least the final manufacturing plant is here in the states, 2 Gibson plants really ( Nashville and Memphis ). My F-150 is manufactured in an American assembly plant, but I am smart enough to realize that not all of it is made in America. Knowing this didn't deter me from buying a Ford, but knowing that G.M. (from which my father retired ) and Chrysler/ Dodge ( who built your Ramcharging Rattletrap ) suckled at the Govt.'s teat for bailout money kept me from purchasing any of their products. Maybe if Henry had whined for a bailout they would leave him alone and we could have " The Gibson Gubbment Guitar Co.