Promoters and Festivals

[Enmitygauged]

My Band has finally started making waves in our home town. We have been asked to Play a Metal/Punk Festival. It is a national Festival but at the moment due to work we are only playing Adelaide.

 

The Promoter came to us and said for $300 you get 40 tickets to sell for $25.00 each I am happy to do this as there is a profit and I can't see us not selling them. My question is though is this normal?

[Vega1]

I'm no expert so someone may correct, but I do not believe this is normal. In fact I believe it is actually a bit shady. A reputable promoter generally does not sell tickets at a discount to the acts that are playing the show, they are in the business of making money from selling the tickets themselves.

[EVOL!]

As a rule I have never done* nor will do a pay to play gig. That's the promoter dumping the responsibility of getting bodies at the show exclusively onto the bands. It is shady. Ponying up cash at the end of the night to pay the sound guy because no one came out? Understood. But prepaying? No way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

* My last band did do a battle of the bands (rigged, they're all rigged) where we had a ticket selling deal, but as long as you turned in either the unsold tickets or the cash you weren't out any money. We placed in the top three and were offered to move on to the next round, but declined.

[jannusguy2]

I am a concert promoter in Fla. This is not unusual. I just did an Overkill date with 4 bands on the tour. We added 2 locals, gave them 50 tix each to sell for us. But there are "pay to play" scenarios that occur all the time. That's basically what you have described.

[Guest farnsbarns]

It's a common scam run by 2bit promoters. The idea is they break even before the event has even happened, the risk should be theirs, not yours. If the promoter is confident in himself, and the bands, he'll take the risk. If he is a fly by night charlatan he won't take that risk and may even book bands he's never heard, basically recruiting ticket salesmen. Walk away!

[hellion102792]

I had a friend get screwed by a promoter like that last year. They had to pay $300 to enter a Battle of the Bands with the prize of getting money and studio time or something, and had to sell 30 tickets. They managed to sell something like 25 and got placed as the openers due to "poor sales". Long story short, there was a tiny audience during their slot because it was so early and hardly anyone paid attention to the band. They didn't make any money and were out $300 for a show practically no one watched.

 

Can't completely blame the promoter, the loss was because they didn't start trying to sell tickets early enough and didn't bother to read the fine print. But at the same time, that's how some of these promoters make bank; by preying off enthusiastic local acts.

 

If you're considering it, be sure you'd be able to sell enough to break even so it wouldn't be a loss. Ask other bands who have gone ahead and done it and see what their experience was like. If it turns out to be legit, then I wish you guys the best. If not, there will definitely be other opportunities if you're starting to get noticed.

[jannusguy2]

It's a common scam run by 2bit promoters. The idea is they break even before the event has even happened, the risk should be theirs, not yours. If the promoter is confident in himself, and the bands, he'll take the risk. If he is a fly by night charlatan he won't take that risk and may even book bands he's never heard, basically recruiting ticket salesmen. Walk away!

I've been making my living as a promoter for thirty years. What do you do for a living? Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about regarding show promotion.

[FirstMeasure]

Actually, as far as selling tickets to get your slot, that's a pretty good deal. Promoters seldom give you a chance to make a profit on the tickets they have you sell. Usually they just take the money and award you your position based on how many you tickets sold.

 

As for Paying to Play, I'm against that as well. However if you're an original band there's very few choices for exposure and you can turn it into an opportunity. It's all in how you approach the situation. If you look at it like a chance to play on a stage for a few bucks you'll be disappointed. If you take it as a chance to sell your product to the promoters and an audience you wouldn't normally be in front of, then you can turn it into success. Advertising costs money, so think of it as advertising, and if you can sell enough to break even you're ahead of the game.

 

Remember, in a professional outfit getting paid is not the most important thing. It's a balance of exposure, reputation, and getting paid. Sometimes a Free Gig can turn into 3 paid gigs.

 

And getting screwed by shady promoters is all part of the experience, don't let the possibility of getting screwed shake your confidence. Even if they screw you out of your money, you still used their event to promote yourself. It's not like getting stiffed for yard work.

[Thundergod]

I've been making my living as a promoter for thirty years. What do you do for a living? Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about regarding show promotion.

 

 

He clearly doesn't know a thing about the business part of music.

 

I make a living of music and last year I started my own music festival as all of the other local festivals suck (bands and attendants opinion, not mine). It was catalogued by the local press and the attendants and bands as "the best festival ever done in the city".

 

Thing is, in my lack of experience with it (I've worked for companies that do this kind of thing but it's not the same to do it yourself with your business name and your money) I went the musician's way: did it pro-bono, didn't charge the bands and didn't charge for tickets, thought it would be ok with just the sponsors. My bad. With the money the sponsors gave I barely paid for sound, stage and helping hands. I didn't make a dime out of it, but I should have, because I left my money making activities on stand by during the organization (2 months) so money was short anyway. :(

 

3 bands didnt show up. Had I charged them or given them tickets to sell paid in advance, they would have honored the agreement. Those bands already asked to play in this uear's festival and I already declined them. The bands that did play are calling and asking to help in the prganization and to pay something small for stuff lile sound amd all that.

 

When a show is good and unknown amateur bands get the chance to play, the promoter is risking his name and money for them, so I dont see how he shouldn't try to "break even" beforehand.

[vincentw]

These type of threads always end up in fights. The promoters and the bands rarely see things the same way.

[jannusguy2]

These type of threads always end up in fights. The promoters and the bands rarely see things the same way.

That may be true but there's only one entity writing the checks and that's the promoter. There are many times where there are more local acts vying for support slots on national tours. I'm always going to go with the band that's going to work the hardest bringing in their crowd. If that means they're working the streets selling tickets then so be it. I can promise if they do a good job of it they will be remembered and asked back the next time.

[Enmitygauged]

Thanks for the replies guys the Festival is National. Its Called Scorcher Fest. I have attended it many times and it is legit.

 

I have had friends bands play this exact show before. I wasnt asking if "this" festival was legit I was asking if it was the norm. We have played 10 shows since the start of the Year some Headlining some as support usually always (and I dont mean to brag) but being asked to come back and play. We get about 60-90 people per gig. Which may not seem big in America but in a small town like Adelaide its a good turn out.

 

http://www.scorcherfest.com.au/band/profile/386-2574-PWI

 

Again thank you all for your replies.

[slavestate]

Never PAY to play.

 

It is a promoters JOB to PROMOTE.

 

I have seen both sides first hand,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never ever, PAY to play.

[kaleb]

Some promoters are no different than managers, agents, bankers, lawyers, judges, politicians, etc.....

 

It's business. Business is a dirty art. The dirty art of screwing other people.

 

I am aware that there are many good and trustworthy ones out there...

 

But I feel that the motto in the business world is: SCREW THE CLIENTS AND TAKE THEIR MONEY!!!!!

 

I'd watch out. You could get screwed later on....

 

And not the fun kind of screwed either....

[jannusguy2]

I guess if all you hot shots and know-it-alls could do it yourselves you would. right? have fun playing in your garages.

[Thundergod]

I guess if all you hot shots and know-it-alls could do it yourselves you would. right? have fun playing in your garages.

 

 

This.

[FirstMeasure]

I guess if all you hot shots and know-it-alls could do it yourselves you would. right? have fun playing in your garages.

I understand where you're coming from, but surely your not saying all promoters are fair minded people, uncorrupted by the dollar. That's like saying every used car salesman you run into is a trustworthy gentleman, unlikely to sell you a POS if it means a commission and a clear slot for another car. The truth of the matter is, most car salesmen are very reputable, but the crooks do exist.

 

I'm a guitarist who's dealt with promoters, and I'll be the first to say there's plenty of musicians that want the moon and the stars in exchange for a 45 minute set. Or they want Rockstar treatment even though they've never seen the inside of a real dressing room. Most, however, will take a show for the chance to promote themselves, sell their own merchandise, and make a little cash off the venue if the show goes over well.

 

I will say it's nice when a venue owner or promoter treats you like you're trying to run a business, not just have fun and feel cool.

 

One last note. It's the responsibility of the promoter to promote the show, it's the responsibility of the band to promote the band. So if everybody's doing their job, the gig should get plenty of promotion. If not, then someone just cost someone else a lot of money.

[jdgm]

Excellent thread and I'm not surprised at all if it's got just a little heated. I am very interested by the replies of Jannusguy2 and Thundergod as it is almost never that we get to hear about things from the promoter's point of view. As they imply, 'there is music and then there is music BUSINESS'. Ideals need reality to be realised (excuse me I don't quite know how to put that properly). If you are fortunate and young enough to be in a band which has management and a recording deal and you want to progress your career by getting on a big-name tour, it is very likely that you would have to pay to get on there as a support act. I am not taking sides here. There is considerable advantage in understanding all aspects of how the business of presenting music to the public, i.e. entertainment, works. Notice too that the OP is from Australia.

[Elmer]

300$ for 40 tickets and you sell them at 25. You say you don't think you will have a problem selling the tickets...I don't see the problem.

You make 700$ profit. If there are 10 bands who all do the same you have already a 400 people crowd. Nice idea, we are not all promoters or organisations like Roskilde, Werchter or 10000 lakes festival, etc

[Enmitygauged]

300$ for 40 tickets and you sell them at 25. You say you don't think you will have a problem selling the tickets...I don't see the problem.

You make 700$ profit. If there are 10 bands who all do the same you have already a 400 people crowd. Nice idea, we are not all promoters or organisations like Roskilde, Werchter or 10000 lakes festival, etc

 

We actually sold out of the tickets today in one day. So we are grabbing more which are free but we only get $15 of the $25 rather than the promoter selling them and getting full profit.

 

Pretty stoked actually.

[Guest farnsbarns]

I've been making my living as a promoter for thirty years. What do you do for a living? Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about regarding show promotion.

 

If you are involved in making bands buy tickets to resell and pay for them UPFRONT you are, imo, involved in unethical business practice, simple as that. If you don't like my opinion and are offended that's just tough, get over it, I have.

[overtherainbo]

Hello, Fellow Babies,

Hey, Enmitygauged, it sounds fair. The promoter has already contracted with some local venue for a stage, and by contracted I mean he is legally on the hook to pay for that stage even if the concert attendance fall short of making a profit. He could just give you the tickets, but that makes it just another $300 expense for him. He needs to sell those tickets, and the price of your admission is to help sell them. The main real question: is the venue really "national?" Otherwise, this is an opportunity for you to meet other Bands that may be on their way to the big time, to meet professional managers, to see how other bands manage equipment and personnel on-the-road; you know, swap ideas and make a wider circle of friends in the most attractive industry to you. You could come away with a lot of ideas, new friends, professional contacts; and, at the least, some tall tales to swap at the bar.

 

But, I hate to say it, but some of you really need a reality check.

 

Consider the average experience of the customers in a local bar. Guys are there hoping to be entertained by the bar band. Let's see, what will he get?

• He may be trying to talk to his date, meet a woman, or talk with his friends, but that is nearly impossible without screaming or writing on a napkin.

 

•• The band only knows about an hour of material, so they play each song, with a recognizable melody or guitar riff, for an average of ten or more minutes each.

 

••• The band has been hired to play in a venue whose customers want to hear country, Hawaiian, or slow dance and dinner music, but the band will have to fake all of that.

 

•••• Most of their hourly sets must consist of the "ol' fall back," an improvised 12 bar blues where the guitar, the bass, the piano man, the harmonica, and the drums improvise solos, to fill another twenty minutes. Each time.

 

••••• Since improvised 12 bar blues is 75 % of the act, the audience will hear every riff and fancy turn around known to the lead instruments ----over and over. Maybe someone in the audience will recognize Stormy Monday, but only because he's heard it for twenty minutes....

 

•••••• Since the band has so little material, they depend on the singer or lead guitarist to carry the show.... so the singer or guitarist ties to "pull off" a specific song that has a known, recognizable melody, special rhythmic breaks, duel guitar leads, a specific solo... while the band fumbles along in the background. Oddly, even though the band members know they don't know the song, the are confident no one will notice --- so they are just as loud as ever....

 

••••••• The song has finally ended. The audience has learned to expect that before the next song begins, the band will argue for several minutes about which song to play. The drum wants something that features the drum, The guitar is trying to pick up the smokin' lady in the front booth. The singer's extended family wants to hear him sing "something fancy." Etc., etc.

 

••••••••• The hourly break is over, the band members slowly stroll back on stage, and look at each other with expressions of dismay as it dawns on them that the drummer is still out in the audience trying to pick up a woman or swigging down as much beer as possible; so figure another ten minutes while the band members try to drag the reluctant drummer back to the stage. To be repeated on the next break....

 

••••••••• Uh oh, the audience is in for a real treat. The rest of the band has faded out into the audience, leaving a "would-be" song writer / poet on stage to perform some of his original material. But before the first song, the songwriter believes that "to really understand" the material, the audience must hear his every thought, the temperature and road conditions on the night he wrote it, etc. And then it begins ... a song with no hook, little melody, a story turgidly determined to relate cosmically important things... in 70 or 80 verses, verses that drift by with glacial rapidity, verses that cause the individual audience members to begin pondering the philosophical worth of his own existence.... Where're my car keys...?

 

This band.. is a draw... that will bring people ----- ready to pay big bucks ----- from miles around?

 

Anyone can draw a crowd of teenagers and kids from the neighborhood playing their garage, but that's not the same thing as drawing paying adults. The bar or restaurant owner wants entertainment that can hold an audience. If you can't do that he doesn't need ya, because for most bars, just the availability of beer and a few women is all the "draw" the bar needs. The real trick is in developing enough of an act that anyone wants to pay to see and hear you.

 

Take a minute to consider the words, "captive audience".

 

The customers sitting in a bar are already satisfied with the beer and girls, so are you really capable of adding anything fun and exciting that will enhance the experience? Time to put egos aside. At a rough guess, I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least 10 to 12,000 guitarists in America capable of playing some really hot licks, and the same for pianos, and drums. Don't think so? Look around YouTube. Last night I found an Italian that plays hot chicken' pickin' style. So you can play... well, so can about 10,000 other guys. So what have you got?. First, your band needs to be able to perform good, commercial covers of rock and country hits. And you need to be able to play a couple of different styles of music -- and play it well. Second, you need to understand how to produce a commercial sound and apply that treatment to any original material you can create. Leaving one of the band members to fumble through some of his original material is a serious act of presumption that most probably irritates an audience that wants to be entertained. At a minimum, the band ought to spend some time trying to add some structure to original material, add riffs, double lead solos, find a hook, and a story for the song; it just cannot wonder along trying to find a point. If you have a band member that insists that it's his material, then let him find an "open mike night" ; that audience has deliberately self-selected to sit through that torture. So be that best band you can be.

 

So what makes you and your band special? Why should a promoter push you? Do you really think you are owed a place in the show? From the concert promoter's side, he has **already** been running around arranging for a couple of big-time acts with a reputation and some hits to play in his venue. This may have involved a lot of juggling to match schedules and contracts. So the promoter already has acts with guaranteed, historic drawing power: as an unknown, local band you are****lucky***** to be included, and given a chance to play in a larger venue that you couldn't arrange on your own reputation and talent. Consider that the Promoter has had to rent a stage, and the house has maybe 5,000 seats he needs to pay for, 'cause if he can't fill those seats on the concert date, he still has to pay. So he has already committed by contract to pay $10,000. for the hall, he has had to buy thousands of dollars of insurance covering fire, and injury to audience members,etc., and he may have to pay another 75 grand in advertising.

 

The only proof that you have any drawing power what-so-damn-ever is the effort you make to help promote the concert. In this case the measure is in the ticket sales. It would be wildly unusual if you were expected to sign a contract to pay for the stage. What does is say about the entertainment value an unknown band brings to the table, if they can't even persuade 25 of their friends and family to by the tickets? Is the promoter supposed to carry this unknown band on his back like Sam carried Frodo to Mount Doom?

 

If you are an unknown guitarist in an unknown band, you're lucky to get the opportunity to play in a large format, and selling tickets is a minimum buy-in to participate.

[jannusguy2]

If you are involved in making bands buy tickets to resell and pay for them UPFRONT you are, imo, involved in unethical business practice, simple as that. If you don't like my opinion and are offended that's just tough, get over it, I have.

Well, fortunately for those of us in the business your approval or disapproval is unimportant. You never told us what you did for a living. Please share so I have the chance to disparage something I likely know nothing about.

[cookieman15061]

Some promoters are no different than managers, agents, bankers, lawyers, judges, politicians, etc.....

 

It's business. Business is a dirty art. The dirty art of screwing other people.

 

 

 

Business is not dirty. At least not mine. To lump anyone who owns or operates one into that catagory is wrong.

[cookieman15061]

Well, fortunately for those of us in the business your approval or disapproval is unimportant. You never told us what you did for a living. Please share so I have the chance to disparage something I likely know nothing about.

 

 

Brother we haven't always seen eye to eye on many things but I'll side with you on this one.