Tuning half step down questions

[Riffster]

So a drummer friend of mine asked me to learn a few Kiss songs, I have never been a fan of theirs but like their greatest hits. Anyway I learned that a lot of their songs are in Eb tuning but sometimes is labeled as D# why is that depending on the key of the song?

 

Also if you can play a song recorded in Eb tuning by transposing chords on standard tuning why players tune down? Is it a pitch thing? Ease of playing? Matching voice pitch?

 

I do know that playing acoustic guitar on Eb makes things a hell of a lot easier to play.

[quapman]

I never understood the half step thing.

My brother always played flat and it always bugged me... Lol

Transposing hurts my old brain.

So I tuned to join him.

 

Some say they like the way it sounds better.

I swear some tune down cuz it gives them a woody to say they use heavy gauge strings.

 

Ive tuned down to play along with recordings.

 

D# & Eb are the same thing that's all that is.

 

Sorry.. Didn't really answer any questions.lol

Just my 2 cents

[SoundMaster]

Original post deleted by author.

[charlie brown]

In one band I play in, we play in Eb, now, because it's easier on our OLD "vocal chords" to sing 1/2 step down.

 

We've upped our string guage 1 guage heavier, accordingly. But, that's just how WE do it.

 

The other band I play in, a couple times a year, uses standard (E) tuning, and just change keys entirely,

from the original, if needed. So...Whatever works, is cool!

 

CB

[surfpup]

Also if you can play a song recorded in Eb tuning by transposing chords on standard tuning why players tune down? Is it a pitch thing? Ease of playing? Matching voice pitch?

 

I like Eb for vocals and I think my guitars sound fuller as well - both acoustic and electric. My current trio tunes to Eb but we still capo a bunch of songs as well. This is to accommodate our primary vocalist. Admittedly you can just barre stuff as an electric player, but the capo allows you to use more open chords and open strings - my preference. It can get confusing however. At this point we probably have a song in every key!

['Scales]

I tune Eb in a side project (trio, loud, pub rock originals) and bass player does likewise. I just upped the bottom string one gauge and left the rest at this stage. Sounds heavier to me. Bit of fret buzz obviously so will need to sort out if becomes annoying but when playing through the big amp in that setting I don't mind at the moment.

 

Easier when bass player detunes cos then we just pretend its still normal tuning when sending each other messages re what chords to use - eg just say A rather than Ab if the chord being fretted would be an A in standard tuning - in our minds we treat it as if it was normally tuned...

[Karloff]

In one band I play in, we play in Eb, now, because it's easier on our OLD "vocal chords" to sing 1/2 step down.

 

We've upped our string guage 1 guage heavier, accordingly. But, that's just how WE do it.

 

The other band I play in, a couple times a year, uses standard (E) tuning, and just change keys entirely,

from the original, if needed. So...Whatever works, is cool!

 

CB

 

 

I like Eb for vocals and I think my guitars sound fuller as well - both acoustic and electric. My current trio tunes to Eb but we still capo a bunch of songs as well. This is to accommodate our primary vocalist. Admittedly you can just barre stuff as an electric player, but the capo allows you to use more open chords and open strings - my preference. It can get confusing however. At this point we probably have a song in every key!

 

thts the exact reason i like tuning a 1/2 step down. just that much easier to sing. whe i tune down, i go up a gauge. so if im a 1/2 step down, i use 11's

[Ryan H]

I'll probably be experimenting with Eb more once my EHX Pitch Fork comes in. Much more convenient, and no need to change string guages to keep the same tension.

 

-Ryan

[rct]

So a drummer friend of mine asked me to learn a few Kiss songs, I have never been a fan of theirs but like their greatest hits. Anyway I learned that a lot of their songs are in Eb tuning but sometimes is labeled as D# why is that depending on the key of the song?

 

Eb is three flats, D# is four sharps, so they are not the same. I believe you see one or the other based on the actual root of the song, which is derived from the context, not the tuning. We call it tuning to Eb because of the low e string, but we could theoretically be tuning to D#.

 

Also if you can play a song recorded in Eb tuning by transposing chords on standard tuning why players tune down? Is it a pitch thing? Ease of playing? Matching voice pitch?

 

Supposed to help the singer not have to get so high. I think I bought that for about a year, because it didn't take long for it to just became cool. "Because it's heavier". I guess.

 

Lots of songs on lots of records back then, the K155 stuff you speak of, were mastered slower than the not quite pinned down standard, so what you were hearing was slower play back at 33 and a third, so the absolute pitch is lowered, since pitch is frequency, and frequencies coming out of your record player require the same speed at mastering time, which didn't always happen. Some records were half a step up too. You could rarely tune to one record and then put on another one without having to retune closer to standard A440 or above.

 

More than you ever wanted to know I'm sure.

 

rct

[SoundMaster]

Original post deleted by author.

[rct]

I'm not done I guess. It's late and I can't sleep.

 

For the dealio on tuning down, watch Vaughn play the guitar. The guy was just massive strong. By the time we could see him play he was using 13s and pushing them around like they were toys. When he started he prolly used 9s like the rest of us, and as that strength grew, and his physicality got just intense, he probably had all kinds of intonation problems, pushing and pulling and picking as hard as he did would render 9s and 10s worthless by the second set. So he went up, strengthened more, and went up more. And he learned and developed the control it took to beat on that guitar and stay really well intonated all over the neck, he didn't over bend his double stop chain saws, and when he did intentionally overbend it was a thing of sheer terror to see the strength and control he had. Difficult to watch for me, he was overwhelming.

 

So when you are putting 13s on one of Leos masterpieces that is already hard to keep in tune, already difficult to control and be well intonated all over the neck, and you are hitting it as hard as he did constantly, at standard pitch tensions you will have problems. So he tuned down.

 

Most have it backwards, putting heavy strings on because they tune down. It's ok, it isn't a bad thing to think that. The fact is that when you put bridge cables on it and wail the tar out of it for four sets a night four nights a week you really end up having to tune down or you are going to at least twist the neck plank right around the truss, pulling the thick string side up towards the thin string side, and that just isn't good.

 

Most of the really juicy, meaty, heavy sounds we all really want out of our guitars came from standard tuned 9's and 10s played at terrific fun volumes driving wheelbarrows full of speakers, moving cubic yards of air. They sounded just as big as anyone tuning down and using heavy strings in order to sound big. Gibbons, for example, sound enormous on some things, using 8s, right? Didn't Iommi make the first few records of theirs using 9s? Maybe I mis-remember that. Heavy, man.

 

eh. I'm done now.

 

rct

[SoundMaster]

Original post deleted by author.

[Jimi Mac]

From what I understand, it's mostly a feel/comfort thing.

 

Most players that do it like the slinkier feel of the strings that are backed-off a half step and find bending easier and more pronounced for not just bends, but left hand vibrato technique too...

 

Some like the sound that way for open string licks and voicings. Mostly I think it has to do with the feel of the strings and how they respond to style.

 

I screwed it all up when I was a kid and tuned a full step down, but string my axe with 13's...

 

The classic "You Don't Love Me" song played by John Mayall's Blues Breakers with Peter Green off "The Hard Road" ablum is most often played in the Key of A in standard tuning but Peter and John did it in Bb I think to match Peter's singing voice better of that era because I think that goes in even the opposite direction in tone. They could have even tuned up a 1/2 step because classically it utilizes the ending note of the open A string on a standard tuning guitar...

 

So sometimes it was for a pitch change for a singer those up or down a 1/2 step tunings...

 

I prefer simple standard tunings these days for most all my axes... Except slide...

[stein]

 

 

 

Lots of songs on lots of records back then, the K155 stuff you speak of, were mastered slower than the not quite pinned down standard, so what you were hearing was slower play back at 33 and a third, so the absolute pitch is lowered, since pitch is frequency, and frequencies coming out of your record player require the same speed at mastering time, which didn't always happen. Some records were half a step up too. You could rarely tune to one record and then put on another one without having to retune closer to standard A440 or above.

 

More than you ever wanted to know I'm sure.

 

rct

Nicely said. Or typed, I should say?

 

I can attest to all of this I think. For those of us that learned to play from records, rarely would a record ever be "in tune", so to speak. If you wanted to be "in-tune" with a record, it was taken for granted you had to adjust.

 

Wow, so long ago. As I remember back, it seems I also remember most of us that I knew didn't have as much gizmos and such with us all the time. "Give me an A" was how we tuned usually, we didn't reach in our cases for a tuner. A guys guitar could be tuned to anything at any given time, because "tuning" usually meant retuning a few strings that went out. I could ge weeks without using a tuner.

 

Which kinda gets back to tuning to records. How often would we just tune to a record that was playing rather than look for a tuner?

 

It seems to me another thing was having a piano. If a piano player was involved, the tuning of the piano was the reference everyone used, naturally. But also if a piano was in the house, that was a common thing to go tune to.

[stein]

Eb is three flats, D# is four sharps, so they are not the same. I believe you see one or the other based on the actual root of the song, which is derived from the context, not the tuning. We call it tuning to Eb because of the low e string, but we could theoretically be tuning to D#.

 

 

 

rct

This is true also.

 

I don't pretend to be a monster at music thoery, but I seem to remember that if there was a question as to it being one or the other, the "technically correct" key to call it was the one that used the least amount of sharps or flats in the key signature.

 

And then of corse the least amount of accidentals, or whatever it's called, I don't remember. That would mean your first guess was wrong.

 

I feel so out of touch. Does anyone even use written music anymore?

[stein]

And now, about the half-step down thing:

 

I don't personally sing, and the rare times I did, it wasn't much and not well. So, I can NOT say what is easier on the vocalist.

 

I can say from experience that when playing with most bands or vocalist, it was standard tuning. If a vocalist actually had trouble with a key or a song, it would be transposed to something else, a different key completely. For example, it wouldn't just be a half-step flat, it would go from A to G, or it could be from E to G or something else.

 

And also, if the key was changed, it didn't go to something wierd like a half step. That would make it real hard on everyone else. If the vocalist WOULD do that, the band usually demanded he/she choose one way or the other half step up or down.

 

I would say also that it was VERY common to expect a song to be played or covered in a different key. You ask what key or are told what key it's going to be done in.

 

As for the E flat deal, I have a thoery that besides being "cool", it gives the vocalist a slight edge and makes it SEEM easier because he/she is singing what another has without having to reach so high. It's always easier to sing lower rather than higher.

[kidblast]

in the bands I've worked in that have tuned down a half step... it was for the vocals.

 

as a guy who spends about as much time on my voice as I do my hands, that half step makes a pretty big difference.

 

 

here's my problem.... my internal pitch wheel goes nutz when I have tune down a half step. I hate it.

[ReGuitar]

So a drummer friend of mine asked me to learn a few Kiss songs, I have never been a fan of theirs but like their greatest hits. Anyway I learned that a lot of their songs are in Eb tuning but sometimes is labeled as D# why is that depending on the key of the song?

 

Eb and D# are the same and also aren't the same. That depends on the instrument you're playing.

 

They are the same in well tempered instruments, such as the piano.

 

But, for choral and/or orchestra works the tuning depends on the key/scale you are using. Musicians match pitch by ear.

In this case, for example, a D# in E Major Key (E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#) is different of an Eb in C Minor Key ( C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb).

 

Don't pull your hair out trying to understand it, that's all about physics.

 

Also if you can play a song recorded in Eb tuning by transposing chords on standard tuning why players tune down?

 

Because of the open 6th string.

 

Is it a pitch thing? Ease of playing? Matching voice pitch?

 

Not for guitars. Yes, for some players. Don't think so.

 

Don't pull your hair out trying to understand it, that's all about personal taste.

[ReGuitar]

in the bands I've worked in that have tuned down a half step... it was for the vocals.

 

as a guy who spends about as much time on my voice as I do my hands, that half step makes a pretty big difference.

 

 

here's my problem.... my internal pitch wheel goes nutz when I have tune down a half step. I hate it.

 

Yep, people who have absolute pitch also feel this way.

[american cheez]

 

 

Lots of songs on lots of records back then, the K155 stuff you speak of, were mastered slower than the not quite pinned down standard, so what you were hearing was slower play back at 33 and a third, so the absolute pitch is lowered, since pitch is frequency, and frequencies coming out of your record player require the same speed at mastering time, which didn't always happen. Some records were half a step up too. You could rarely tune to one record and then put on another one without having to retune

 

haaaaaaa! i forgot about this, it's been so long. i learned most of judas priest's catalog in that fashion.

[Versatile]

I think some of this came about when it became known that Jimi Hendrix tuned to Eb...

 

Before then guitar tuning was IMO seen as sacrosanct... :blink:

 

Then Paul McCartney tuned down to D for some songs to ease the use of open chord shapes

 

'Yesterday' and 'Mother Nature's Son'...

 

In a typical band, if the guitarist tunes to Eb then the bassist will too...

 

V

 

 

And the fiddle player... <_<

[Riffster]

Thanks for the responses and clarifications.

 

I am a (in the words of EVOL) ham-handed player so I won't be splitting hairs between 3 flats and 4 sharps but I am glad to know in theory what I am doing. I have never tuned one of my guitars to Eb of D# and I can't believe I had not, one of my LPs will stayed tuned that way now, I'll keep 10's on it though.

 

I do keep my flying V tuned to D, one full step down to play some Sabbath, Candlemass and other metal songs and still use 10's, no biggie. For some reason in my mind that tuning makes more immediate sense than the Eb/D# thing.

 

My confusion on Eb/D# cam about looks for tabs and reading comments from guys that probably do not know their stuff very well and while I am not well versed on some stuff I know when something does not make sense.

[kidblast]

My confusion on Eb/D# cam about looks for tabs and reading comments from guys that probably do not know their stuff very well and while I am not well versed on some stuff I know when something does not make sense.

 

It would probably be more of an issue if you were dealing with horn players..

 

if you're just wailing away with guitars and drums,, I'm not sure we're getting that deep down in the "mind melting" areas!

[rct]

Thanks for the responses and clarifications.

 

I am a (in the words of EVOL) ham-handed player so I won't be splitting hairs between 3 flats and 4 sharps but I am glad to know in theory what I am doing. I have never tuned one of my guitars to Eb of D# and I can't believe I had not, one of my LPs will stayed tuned that way now, I'll keep 10's on it though.

 

I do keep my flying V tuned to D, one full step down to play some Sabbath, Candlemass and other metal songs and still use 10's, no biggie. For some reason in my mind that tuning makes more immediate sense than the Eb/D# thing.

 

My confusion on Eb/D# cam about looks for tabs and reading comments from guys that probably do not know their stuff very well and while I am not well versed on some stuff I know when something does not make sense.

 

You've got it right there. Written music doesn't account for a guitar player tuning down. I should have said that right away. Written music is a way to communicate across differently tuned instruments, therefore, differently written music for them that when played sounds right. "Concert Pitch" is called that for a good reason, and tuning down a half step defies that reason. Remember that the people that tabbed it out might actually know the context of the music and have written out the right key signature just as much as people not knowing their stuff.

 

Tune on and rock on brutha. If it sounds good and right, it is good and right.

 

rct

[kidblast]

If it sounds good and right, it is good and right

 

CORRECT Rich!