BigKahune Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 . Everybody's talking about slagism, bagism, shagism, dragism, badism, ragism, tagism, this-ism, that-ism . . . . . . . Wait. . Just let it be . . . within you, without you - but, .don't bother me. I now return you to your regular thread comments . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 lol..... Me and my musician pals don't shop that way.... We already know what we want and don't really need a store manager to talk to...... Now maybe if I was 16 and I went to the music store with my mom, no doubt she would be ringing manager bell .... And I would be embarrassed as all hades. Just an analogy, Duane. I don't generally walk into others' houses and make fun of their furniture, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 lol..... Me and my musician pals don't shop that way.... We already know what we want and don't really need a store manager to talk to...... Now maybe if I was 16 and I went to the music store with my mom, no doubt she would be ringing manager bell .... And I would be embarrassed as all hades. Gibson, and all the rest, haven't sold to musicians in a very long time. All retail, especially todays big box and online retail climates require companies to sell to "customers". In short, they sell guitars to anybody these days, that's what I mean when I say that, and I say that more and more all the time. If Gibson, Fender, the rest of them sold to guitar players like they did when we were 16, you wouldn't see any of these innovations that everyone is carping about. "My guitar won't stay in tune" = Electric machine to tune it. "My strings fall off the edges because I've been playing a week" = Move the strings in. "I want more versatility because I don't know what horses for courses means" = Coil splits and taps that every guitar player knows do nothing for versatility. "I want to sound vintagey and cool like Slash" = Name all the pickups by a year even thought they aren't any different. "I like three d holograms that look kewl on social media" = Put a three d hologram on it that looks kewl on social media because social media is everything. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Gibson, and all the rest, haven't sold to musicians in a very long time. All retail, especially todays big box and online retail climates require companies to sell to "customers". In short, they sell guitars to anybody these days, that's what I mean when I say that, and I say that more and more all the time. If Gibson, Fender, the rest of them sold to guitar players like they did when we were 16, you wouldn't see any of these innovations that everyone is carping about. "My guitar won't stay in tune" = Electric machine to tune it. "My strings fall off the edges because I've been playing a week" = Move the strings in. "I want more versatility because I don't know what horses for courses means" = Coil splits and taps that every guitar player knows do nothing for versatility. "I want to sound vintagey and cool like Slash" = Name all the pickups by a year even thought they aren't any different. "I like three d holograms that look kewl on social media" = Put a three d hologram on it that looks kewl on social media because social media is everything. rct [blink] That kinda lost me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It's hard to argue a point when you so whole heartily agree with the person you'r supposed to be arguing with! Don't get us wrong here, we don't hate the company per say. The average everyday bloke that works for the company is the same as us. We don't like the management, the decision makers. We love our instruments and are proud of them. And we are thankfull and proud of the people that actually make our instruments. It's hard to discuss a point such as this, in this manner, without them getting caught in the crossfire. Collateral damage as it were unfortunately. And I offer up here, faithfully, right now, my most sincere and humble appology to any Gibson factory worker who might have read and been upset by my previous post. I am truly sorry. That was never my intention. We, outside the US, have a very real and hard time dealing with the management of this company. It seems at times as if we're almost discriminated against, and that's very hard to take. We sometimes get upset about this too because Gibson is an iconic company, and rightfully so when you consider it's rich history and what it has achieved to date. As one of my band members so succinctly puts it, you don't have to be in the confidence of, and privvy to, the boardroom to understand where some of these decisions stem from. And we can. In my band alone (6 guy's and 3 ladies) we are and were (retired) holders of the office of professional, company directors, and company owners (and in the case of one of the ladies, sole owner of several companies...lol). So we're not just a bunch of dumb hicks down here. Our drummer alone is a current serving corporate lawyer on the board of directorship of three companies (and one of the best jazz/rock drummers I have ever heard!). It still doesn't stop me from trying to tell him he's only a dumb drummer though (lol), but I digress. I'm not trying to and don't want to start any arguments here (really Duane...honestly lol), merely trying to put our point of view across, so you can see both sides of the coin as it were. I hope this sheds a little more light on what goes on in the bigger world of Gibson. I can't and don't speak for all counrties obviously, but I can for our corner down here. And it's not all roses.... Nah Nah..... No apologies needed..... And of course nobody (well at least in my corner) thinks Aussies are "dumb hicks." I've been to Australia three times, and it's been hard to come home from the great down under...lol.... Gibson has been really good to me from the age of 10 when I purchased my first guitar... Actually if anything I was a bad customer through the 1980's because I was caught up in the hair band stuff and completely ignored Gibson for Charvels and Moser guitars...lol.. But if I were to give Gibson suggestions they can consider they would be; 1. Get switchcraft to make the short style pickup selector switch gold plating. I purchased two Gibbys with gold hardware, but the short switch came in chrome... kinda stands out like a sore thumb... (i know friggin vanity rules me) ,,lol 2. Re-issue Gibson embossed pick-up covers like the 72 Gibbys.... again that vanity thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I was going to let this one go until Marshall Paul noted what seems in ways to have led to the Epi "lounge" and forum remaining alive and kinda separate - and with a strong membership of Australians. He's not the only antipodean to note difficulties our Australian forum members encounter. Apparently Epis are far more expensive there than in the northern hemisphere, as in North America and Europe, and Gibsons even more expensive. Epi versions of Gibson designs apparently are quite popular regardless they're more costly than "here." Duane's comment about the 10,000 miles is valid, as are his, and Marshall's, about Gibson employees. We've had a few nasty comments from a country or two in South America until those folks realized their own government(s) were making the instruments more expensive. We've had a few complaints about fret sprout from the UK - but I think any serious reflection credits all or most that to fretboards drying either in transit, warehousing or whatever. I personally don't know about any "why" about Australia trade costs other than the fact that it's half the population of the UK, a third less population than Canada, and it's much, much farther away. There may be other customs questions, or as has been suggested, contractual questions with importers in Australia. Add to that, Australians are not only Anglophones, they share one heckuva lot of culture with other Anglophones - including obviously music culture that has brought more than a few Australian musicians to high recognition in the rest of the world and in spite of travel travails, many other Anglophone musicians to tours and on occasion moves to Australia. (Where I live, we see Australian rodeo riders and "ranchers" here too.) I wish I had an answer that would make U.S. exports and Gib/Epi sales there more in line with what are found across the Atlantic. I dunno. It's a challenge and at this point one that may or may not be addressed at the company headquarters as a point of major emphasis. I wish there were for a number of cultural and even broadly political reasons. It seems that "just in time" manufacturing supplies are a big deal in today's economy. It'd be nice if "just in time" exports to Oz might be also possible and potentially more profitable for everybody from the company to the importers and customers there. Then again... I ain't in the Gibson head office. But it does seem like it could be a neat challenge. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Paul Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 OK, let's try to boil it all down here. Many good points have been put forth and I believe they should be brought into a singular perspective perhaps. At least, given a try, yes? no? maybe? Let's give it a go eh. FZ gets right to the point for starters. That's what I've always loved about his posts. Always straight to the heart of the matter. He makes the comment "They should care what we think. We are the ones buying their product". Yes. If they don't care, and we wind up not buying their product, then....no money comming in. That happens and a company can and will very quickly go belly up on the surface just like some beautiful whale that's expired. No-one wants to see that happen. Murph, even more so. "Cha Ching.....". Money folks, money. The bottom line. Good and bad decisions driving the bottom line. Just stop for a moment and think what the implications can be and are of that. Bad blues player feels he has a right to complain. Well, he's been a part of this forum a little longer and is a little older than a lot of people here, your's truly included, so if he wants to voice a complaint, let's let him. Really, what's it goint to hurt. Give him the elbow room, and respect he rightly deserves to do so. Duane, please, let me sit down next to you, and together, let's see if we can make a little more sense of my previous post for you. You finish up saying "I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but I just don't get how your perception of Gibson ties into my Gibson experience ....". OK, I think I can help you here. I'll make an analogy here (even though my girlfriend always reckon's mine are cr#p, lol). Imagine you are standing at a particular point on the earth looking up into the night sky at a certain set of stars, and you would like these stars to all line up in a straight line so you can see the point at the very end. But your getting frustrated because they're not lining up. One is off to the side, another too far up , another down , and so forth. Now, imagine your standing 10,000 mile away looking up at the same night sky, looking up at the same set of stars, however, because of the difference of position on the earths surface now, your seeing these stars are all lined up and you can now see that point at the end. Your trying (genuinely I believe) to see what I see, but from your experience though. If you were to try and see what I see but from my experience, you would see those stars lined up, and ultimately the point at the end. As my Dad used to say, "It;s all a matter of perspective". For me, I think the most telling comment comes from surfpup when he says "I think most people come here initially looking for advice - an answer to a question about their Gibson - rather than to complain". Yes, very true. However, is not even a complaint, a negative comment, a good thing? I think so. I come waltzing down the street, money in my hot hand, to go into a shop to buy a certain product, but this product is cr#p, and along the way I come across a friend who tells me he tried the very same product and it was cr#p and I believe him so I dont buy the product, has not some good come from that single negative comment? I think the balance of advise and complaints on this forum are the real driving force behind the truth we seek here. I believe them to be of equal importance. And what I really like about this forum, is everyone delivers their beliefs here with passion! And that's the true spirit of everyone here. Keep up the good work fellas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 People like to moan.. In this case moaning about people who moan about different things than they do... We all have opinions and that's what makes it interesting.. If we all just agreed on everything it would be really boring... And isn't that the whole point of this forum and others like it.. that we come on here to share our experience and our love of Gibsons and music and just general guitar related stuff or in the lounges case what ever seems to be on ones mind.... Once you start saying its right or wrong to discuss certain topics (apart from obviously the ones we arnt allowed to talk about) where does it stop? Are people only allowed to post things that everyone agrees with? As with if you don't like what changes Gibson make you don't have to buy one, if you don't like a topic or find it annoying then ignore it and move on to the next one... aint no thang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 People like to moan.. In this case moaning about people who moan about different things than they do... We all have opinions and that's what makes it interesting.. If we all just agreed on everything it would be really boring... And isn't that the whole point of this forum and others like it.. that we come on here to share our experience and our love of Gibsons and music and just general guitar related stuff or in the lounges case what ever seems to be on ones mind.... Once you start saying its right or wrong to discuss certain topics (apart from obviously the ones we arnt allowed to talk about) where does it stop? Are people only allowed to post things that everyone agrees with? As with if you don't like what changes Gibson make you don't have to buy one, if you don't like a topic or find it annoying then ignore it and move on to the next one... aint no thang... All valid..... But when the same members post the same things over and over... Then use someone else s thread to post about the same belly ache... It really does get annoying .... Certainly it's not a forum offense by any stretch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drog Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I don't think there are many that come here and "slag Gibson". Sure some of us have opinions on some of the new features/changes but that will happen anyways. The quality of the new guitars is fantastic, IMO, and you don't hear people saying they are not of high quality. Its more the features/ changes that do not suit. Personally I like the way Gibson is headed as far as getting back to a higher quality instrument, dumping its lower end lines. But hey, just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 [blink] That kinda lost me Your post was about how you and yer musician pals shop. Gibson hasn't sold to musicians for a long time. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Your post was about how you and yer musician pals shop. Gibson hasn't sold to musicians for a long time. rct lol.... thanks.... Nice to know I'n not a musician.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Paul Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Nah Nah..... No apologies needed..... And of course nobody (well at least in my corner) thinks Aussies are "dumb hicks." I've been to Australia three times, and it's been hard to come home from the great down under...lol.... Gibson has been really good to me from the age of 10 when I purchased my first guitar... Actually if anything I was a bad customer through the 1980's because I was caught up in the hair band stuff and completely ignored Gibson for Charvels and Moser guitars...lol.. But if I were to give Gibson suggestions they can consider they would be; 1. Get switchcraft to make the short style pickup selector switch gold plating. I purchased two Gibbys with gold hardware, but the short switch came in chrome... kinda stands out like a sore thumb... (i know friggin vanity rules me) ,,lol 2. Re-issue Gibson embossed pick-up covers like the 72 Gibbys.... again that vanity thing LOL! Thanks mate. I hope on every occasion downunder the sheiler's were red hot and the beers icy cold! And like you, I started early. First strat at nine, a '72, first LP at 14, a '77, followed up a year later with my second LP, the '78. All three I hapilly and thankfully still have with me. Might be able to help you with the selector switch. I once painted the cream coloured knob on top with white nail polish so it would match the rest of the white work. Would it be possible to do the same using gold nail polish? It stayed on forever! (although my girlfriend at the time kept looking at me sideways forever after all because I asked to use some of her nail polish!). No sense of humour some women! ("terribly sorry dear, didn't mean it. you weren't supposed to hear that....") (I really should learn to shut that kitchen door before making comments like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I think in any segment of population, you are going to get complainers. The internet, is also a segment, just cyber instead of geographic. Perhaps, a difference is, there are those that have legitimate issues/problems, and those that see complaining as the thing to do for reasons other than learning or solving. MOST complaints I read about (here and in life) are easily solved through a little knowledge or understanding. For example, the whole 2015 Gibson thing. Sure, the features may suck to most. The complaint is that "Gibson is making us buy only these". No, it isn't. Guitars aren't like car dealerships where any new model year is what you have available. There are plenty of non-2015 Gibby's in the shops, and Gibson knows that. Just because they only build this or that for a given production run/year does NOT mean that's all they expect to be in the stores. So you see, any complaint about the 2015's being "not what everyone wants" falls on deaf ears because, that problem is already solved. Then, maybe, there are those that buy a new Gibby for the first time, wonder about a ripple here or a finish crack there. 9 times out of 10, it is because they don't have experience with high end guitars, and maybe a bit concerned or surprised. If it's your first high-end guitar, it might be good to hear certain things are normal. Or maybe an actual issue. But if don't want to learn about or agree with how they have been built by those that have experienced many "vintage" or good and bad guitars, you can't expect to convince anyone. I think people, even on the internet, can tell the difference between one who has a legitimate issue/problem they want to have solved, and those that want to complain as a sort of activist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 LOL! Thanks mate. I hope on every occasion downunder the sheiler's were red hot and the beers icy cold! And like you, I started early. First strat at nine, a '72, first LP at 14, a '77, followed up a year later with my second LP, the '78. All three I hapilly and thankfully still have with me. Might be able to help you with the selector switch. I once painted the cream coloured knob on top with white nail polish so it would match the rest of the white work. Would it be possible to do the same using gold nail polish? It stayed on forever! (although my girlfriend at the time kept looking at me sideways forever after all because I asked to use some of her nail polish!). No sense of humour some women! ("terribly sorry dear, didn't mean it. you weren't supposed to hear that....") (I really should learn to shut that kitchen door before making comments like that). I actually did paint one with gold Testers model paint...lol... The switch was a little sticky at first, because I was a tad liberal with the paint.... but it looks alright... But I know it's painted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 .... but it looks alright... But I know it's painted Correction: now the WORLD knows. (Internet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Correction: now the WORLD knows. (Internet). I think I did the same thing to the faded SG I sold ya awhile back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 There used to be some electroplating equipment available through some gunsmithing firms that might work. Some folks liked having gold-plated triggers which then, if you shot much at all, proceeded to wear off. But... <grin> m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 here's one idea - it's bronze 'stedda real gold but??? m http://www.midwayusa.com/product/720160/forster-gold-inlay-filling-kit?cm_vc=S014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 here's one idea - it's bronze 'stedda real gold but??? m http://www.midwayusa.com/product/720160/forster-gold-inlay-filling-kit?cm_vc=S014 oooohh I may just do that to my front teeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hmmmmm.... I dunno what the deal is on some of this stuff. Some 40 years ago one could find all sorts of electroplating kits. Now it almost seems as if they wanna force folks to go to a company that has to run through 8,000 federal and state regs and then charge folks 10,000 times what the job shoulda cost. I did notice, however, that there appear to be some DIY electroplating vids on Youtube. As for teeth and "gold," since mine are storebought anyway... naaah. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Hmmmmm.... I dunno what the deal is on some of this stuff. Some 40 years ago one could find all sorts of electroplating kits. Now it almost seems as if they wanna force folks to go to a company that has to run through 8,000 federal and state regs and then charge folks 10,000 times what the job shoulda cost. I did notice, however, that there appear to be some DIY electroplating vids on Youtube. As for teeth and "gold," since mine are storebought anyway... naaah. m Maybe so as the dentist don't have to compete. Seems electroplating would be a lot cheaper. Now, if I could get some porcelain grips made, and have insurance cover it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Getting back on topic, I think that the reason people complain about Gibson so much is because they're held to a higher standard than your average Brand X guitar. They're like Martin - they're both great American companies which, in my opinion, have always made the best guitars you can get. They should be as good as it's possible for a guitar to be made as they're not pieces of crap from Bangladesh or somewhere similar. Just speaking for myself, I expect a Gibson to be a very high quality instrument and I don't want to see the product dumbed down and cheapened. I've had Gibsons for over 40 years but this is the first time in my life I'm looking at other brands for my next electric. Before the 2014 model year it just would have automatically been a Gibson. I hope that somebody at Gibson actually reads these posts and maybe takes an interest as to what is important to a lifelong Gibson owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It's interesting that a lot of guys on here buy new Gibson's each year and trade their old ones. In the past many players used to have 1 primary guitar that they seemed to use for life - look at Barney Kessel or even Neil Young with Old Black. I've always liked the idea of having one guitar you always go back to even if you amount many like myself, and one or 2 that you know inside out. My oldest Gibsons are my 1997 Les Paul Studio and my 2003 Les Paul Classic which I bought from new and would never sell. I feel no need to get a new 2015 Classic or Studio as I prefer my old ones, so all the robo tuner/ switch/ lp scroll changes they have made really don't bother me too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "G.A.S." is a strange, wonderful/frightening, affliction. Once you start, there seems to be no end. At least, until you come to the period where you realize the old stuff you have, is nicer=more comfortable/familiar, than anything you see in any of the stores. I often think "Coveting," is actually more "fun," than actually owning what you covet, in many cases. I'd love to have a ES-345! But, IF I never end up getting one, it's OK! My "Lucille" certainly does everything that a 345 would do. But, I've always just "wanted" one. It's kinda like a "Bucket List" guitar, or some such, as is a Martin 000-28EC, or Guild Jumbo acoustic 12-string! Then, there is the questionable justification, when reviewing my humble playing abilities. LOL CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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