kelly campbell Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I wanted to go to Sweetwater yesterday to check the facility out after their remodel of the retail space. So first of all I love the remodel as now the acoustic room is three times bigger. I was really looking forward to this so one could play easier and have more selections on display. Immediately I noticed there was only like 5 or 6 Gibson's on display and no J15, no J45 two of their more popular models this past year. So I decided to ask the sales person "Whats up with so few Gibsons?, not just here but GC and Sam Ash is doing the same as well, are they coming out with a new model year"?? I have noticed in my area it seems inventory on display just keeps shrinking and believe me I get to these store about twice a month. Any way his response was that they just do not sell " because the high cost of them and not so great sound it is a decision of the bosses not to display as many". Now, in fairness this was a young man and new to the company but he was very sharp. What really concerns me is if this is the prevailing thought process for the big box stores, it will really hurt Gibson in the long run which ultimately hurts the consumer who likes the Gibson line like I do..any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-RAM Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Whether the Gibson brand will suffer or fare well as a result of their business practices is out of the hands of the likes of you and I; a chess game of sorts is currently being played on a grand scale, and people who are skilled(?) at business sales and manufacturing are the ones calling the shots. It's always easy to look at the beginnings of a popular commodity and discover the things that made it so, like quality, consistency and durability. As time goes on, however, things naturally occur: competitors are acutely aware of the success of any product and they immediately scheme to duplicate it, make a more affordable version of it, or modify it. How the original manufacturer reacts is kind of what you're pondering, if I understood your post correctly... Personally, I'm disheartened by a few things: The ever-rising MSRPs of Gibson products, at insane levels now The enormous variations of what were once standard products (dilution) Cost-cutting measures (i.e., circuit boards vs hand-soldering) Dubious 'innovations' like Min-e-tune, or whatever they're called, chambering, etc.... So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm done - I own three Gibson electric guitars, and none of them are recent builds (I did have a mid-2000s Firebird, but it was recently traded it for an older model). They're all what I consider good-playing guitars, and they're all pretty straightforward. I can't see ever buying a new instrument from the company, though - the cost simply cannot be justified any more, at least in my mind's eye. I can only wonder how younger and new players are affected by all this, as they are probably indoctrinated to 'the brand' as a cornerstone of guitars and guitar manufacturing, the standard by which others are compared. Sorry, I don't see Gibson in that light at all - there are many, many good instruments out there made by companies and individuals alike that hold their own in terms of quality and playability - it's easier than ever for them to compete price-wise with Gibson. So I'll continue to collect and trade guitars, but I'll always have more Washburns, Fenders, Carvins and Hofners than Gibsons - they have effectively priced themselves out of my interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjunk Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Three of my favorite Washington state Gibson dealers just dropped them within the last six months, and all seem pretty frustrated over it. They all said the same thing - that Gibson started making unreasonable minimum-order demands that only big box chains could handle, and also that it's coupled with a very significant price increase right around the corner. Not sure if this is true, but one of them told me that the GC's are the only left in the state for their new acoustics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-RAM Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Sorry, didn't catch on to the fact that I was replying to the Acoustic forum, but I think many of my points still apply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacamartin Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 they just do not sell " because the high cost of them That hits a bulls eye! The younger set of acoustic players cannot afford these beauties....and the likes of us old codgers have been pushed into the used market too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 It's the first I have heard of anything like that. I know GC is lowering their inventory on everything. Fender, Gibson... everything. But that is more of a reflection on their own financial woes. As for Sweetwater, I can't speak in any educated way on why they may be pulling back. Gibson is our best selling acoustic brand. We keep about 30 on the wall and they outsell our other major American brands by a wide margin. Every local market is different though, and every individual business has to make decisions for themselves. There are products and brands that we have scaled back on because we can't sell them... while they are selling wonderfully in other markets. That's just the way it goes. as for the earlier post about Gibson costing too much and not offering good products..... I know most of your post was aimed at electrics, but I feel compelled to say that the Montana division has been looking like the best in the company and really hasn't suffered from any of those problems. At least not yet! Haha (fingers crossed) -Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Russo's is doing well with Gibsons, and stock many. They also sell Taylor, Martin, Epiphone, Yamaha, and Gretsch. Oh well.... my Gibsons are gonna go up in value.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I have to admit the price of Gibsons over past couple of years has been astronomical. I noticed at least here in Europe a Hummingbird Standard is now same price to what I paid for a HB TV some 4 years ago. The Songwriter is now around 40% more than what i paid for it, insane. And Keith ... out of couriosity, what are your best three selling Gibson acoustics ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 the cycle seems to repeat itself about every 10 years with this company and their pricing and dealer demands. Seems to me they are clearly loosing touch with their base once again. 2013 you could get a really nice LP traditional for well under 2k.. Not any more.. I would love a J200, there is no freakin way I'm shelling out ~$4k for one. NOPE! more power to those who have that kind of disposable cash.. I can't justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I am sorry but with the J 15 on the market ... Gibson has made an affordable product ... And I have always felt that I pay reasonable money for my gibsons. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I wanted to go to Sweetwater yesterday to check the facility out after their remodel of the retail space. So first of all I love the remodel as now the acoustic room is three times bigger. I was really looking forward to this so one could play easier and have more selections on display. Immediately I noticed there was only like 5 or 6 Gibson's on display and no J15, no J45 two of their more popular models this past year. So I decided to ask the sales person "Whats up with so few Gibsons?, not just here but GC and Sam Ash is doing the same as well, are they coming out with a new model year"?? I have noticed in my area it seems inventory on display just keeps shrinking and believe me I get to these store about twice a month. Any way his response was that they just do not sell " because the high cost of them and not so great sound it is a decision of the bosses not to display as many". Now, in fairness this was a young man and new to the company but he was very sharp. What really concerns me is if this is the prevailing thought process for the big box stores, it will really hurt Gibson in the long run which ultimately hurts the consumer who likes the Gibson line like I do..any thoughts? Very reasonable question here. The prices are too high, even the J-15 is far too much money. I am not here to bash Gibson, but here are the facts as I understand them concerning Gibson products. A local GC manager told me that they do not want to carry Gibsons because they do not sell. He then pointed out three hanging on the wall...a J-45 with at least 200 wood specks locked in to the finish on the side of the neck...We can't move it, he said... Then he showed me another J-45 on the wall..this one had horrific ugly brown mis-matched run out lines all down the top from the bridge to the lower bout....no one wants it he said...next he pulled down a Gibson Hummingbird pro....he asked me to to strum it and strike the 6th string....I did....THUNK CLUNK I said !...Exactly he said, and we are now stuck with that one too. He told me they can't even move these with a sale price, because they were a mess. Look around you he said...none of the Martins, or Taylors look like this, not even the cheap laminated models. I sent a new J-45 back to Sweetwater...its truss rod wound completely out and a warped neck on the treble side with no way to adjust it.. I am surprised Gibson is still in business at all. The only good thing coming out of Gibson lately is Epiphone. And who knows how long that will last? Made over seas, those are made correctly, with perfect finishes, and a truss rods that works and with far less run out on the tops. To find a good Gibson involves a rediculous hunt. People now walk by Gibsons because they expect them to be bad...and many of them are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I am sorry but with the J 15 on the market ... Gibson has made an affordable product ... And I have always felt that I pay reasonable money for my gibsons. JC Thats a very fair point JC. On the one hand Gibson has made their guitars to be affordable more than ever, on the other hand their standard line has become almost out of reach for many with their ridiculous price increases in recent years. Clearly J-15/ 35 players are getting the best value on the market right now, by far .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Im not a Gbson basher ...... Were talking about pricing here btw Very reasonable question here. The prices are too high, even the J-15 is far too much money. I am not here to bash Gibson, but here are the facts as I understand them concerning Gibson products. A local GC manager told me that they do not want to carry Gibsons because they do not sell. He then pointed out three hanging on the wall...a J-45 with at least 200 wood specks locked in to the finish on the side of the neck...We can't move it, he said... Then he showed me another J-45 on the wall..this one had horrific ugly brown mis-matched run out lines all down the top from the bridge to the lower bout....no one wants it he said...next he pulled down a Gibson Hummingbird pro....he asked me to to strum it and strike the 6th string....I did....THUNK CLUNK I said !...Exactly he said, and we are now stuck with that one too. He told me they can't even move these with a sale price, because they were a mess. Look around you he said...none of the Martins, or Taylors look like this, not even the cheap laminated models. I sent a new J-45 back to Sweetwater...its truss rod wound completely out and a warped neck on the treble side with no way to adjust it.. I am surprised Gibson is still in business at all. The only good thing coming out of Gibson lately is Epiphone. And who knows how long that will last? Made over seas, those are made correctly, with perfect finishes, and a truss rods that works and with far less run out on the tops. To find a good Gibson involves a rediculous hunt. People now walk by Gibsons because they expect them to be bad...and many of them are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dotneck Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I hear this complaint every few years. But if gibson sells all their guitars then they know something about the market we don't. I don't have any Gibson dealers near me either...so it look like no one is buying them. But someone is buying them. They're just not buying them from the shops that don't stock them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Im not a Gbson basher ...... Were talking about pricing here btw Correct...and pricing has EVERYTHING to do with quality ....now doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Actually No. You'd be surprised how many Mercedes owners have quality issues with their very expensive vehicles. Pricing is everything about what the market is willing to tolerate and pay for the product, which seems to be pretty high in Gibsons case. We call it price elasticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 . GC is a poor pick for comparing stock, they've got trouble themselves. Gibson prices are in line with manufacturers like Martin and Taylor, especially when you consider what's available in their "B" line - Epiphone. Similarly with Gibson/Epiphone electrics. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Actually No. You'd be surprised how many Mercedes owners have quality issues with their very expensive vehicles. Pricing is everything about what the market is willing to tolerate and pay for the product, which seems to be pretty high in Gibsons case. We call it price elasticity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I am sorry but with the J 15 on the market ... Gibson has made an affordable product ... And I have always felt that I pay reasonable money for my gibsons. JC ya that's great, but, I don't WANT a J15.. starting last year, the prices of Gibson USA products have take a huge % hike. it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ya that's great, but, I don't WANT a J15.. starting last year, the prices of Gibson USA products have take a huge % hike. it's not an opinion, it's a fact. Thank you! And Correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly campbell Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 I understand supply and demand and the problems that GC is in but they still have plenty of Taylor and Martin and Yamaha and Fender acoustics it is not like they are reducing the displays of those if anything they are increasing displays of those models. If you don't display them it is very hard to sell them...I realize the market I am in does not support a lot of high end stuff but Sweetwater is in the second largest city in Indiana and they choose not to display the more affordable Gibsons?? I mean I realize that there is profit margins to consider but what does this do to the entire line of acoustics if most dealers take this approach?? It concerns me because I want to buy Gibson's and to have the sales person tell you they are over priced for the way they sound and they don't sound as good as a taylor or Martin has to worry Gibson in some aspects..not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Gibson is not opening new factories, or retooling and revamping to crank out volume. They are still building pretty much hand-built guitars. They are the "boutique guitar maker" of the big name manufacturers. Taylor changed the game. Martin adapted. Gibson has chosen to not go their route. Where am I going with this? If you ran Gibson Acoustic... and you could make only 5,000 guitars a year (or whatever the number is), and there is a healthy supply of middle aged boomers and X-Gens who want,love, and need that sound, and they have INCOME, and you will sell those 5,000 guitars, and use up every ounce of capacity, would you raise price? I would. PS... if Gibson is really the "boutique guitar maker" (hand-built) of the big named acoustic brands, then maybe the yardstick for their pricing should be what SantaCruz and Collings are charging, and not what the Taylor 210 sells for at MusiciansFriend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacamartin Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 "to have the sales person tell you they are over priced for the way they sound and they don't sound as good as a taylor or Martin has to worry Gibson in some aspects..not good" Yes...but those of us that have been around the block a few times know that a salesperson is geared to do and say whatever it takes to further their own needed sales. Take what you hear from a "rep" and don't give it too much creedence......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly campbell Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 "to have the sales person tell you they are over priced for the way they sound and they don't sound as good as a taylor or Martin has to worry Gibson in some aspects..not good" Yes...but those of us that have been around the block a few times know that a salesperson is geared to do and say whatever it takes to further their own needed sales. Take what you hear from a "rep" and don't give it too much creedence......... Oh I am well aware of the aspects of the sales person as I used to be one before I retired, some of the methods and practices in directing potential buyers is dictated by percentage of profit/commissions and management but it is not like they had zero on hand he even looked up and they had 5 J15's in stock and I had already told him I was just looking I was not buying today and was also checking out the remodel..we stood and talked about 25 minutes as there was nobody else in the room. I realize that sweetwaters majority of business is internet..but there has to be reasons why dealers are going away from Gibsons as much like all the ones stated above, quality and minimums on buying and they sound like they are not keeping ahead or even up with the business curve..just worries me that maybe some day they will no longer be in the acoustic market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 just worries me that maybe some day they will no longer be in the acoustic market. In that case, like ThemisSal said, all of our Gibsons are going to increase in value. I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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